Airbnb Breach of Contract Class Action Petition
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
6yI can't stand people that play the victim and think they should be compensated any time something bad happens. People lose jobs. Someone steps on a mine and loses a leg. A spouse commits suicide. A virus makes it dangerous for people to travel or share homes and you lose money.
Suck it up, Buttercup. Figure out how to prepare for a downturn and you'll thrive while others fall apart.
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41 Replies
- 6yJohn UnderwoodPro MemberInvestor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
I don't see this going anywhere.
If the government recommends a Rent moratorium are we going to do a class action against the government?
Airbnb is just an advertising platform. They are actually renting properties. They provide the means for us to rent our properties.
I have been giving 100% refunds for anyone cancelling even before Airbnb started doing it for us.
- 6yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I don't think this has legs. While Airbnb did in fact put the hosts in the position of insurer, though hosts had not agreed to bear risk nor receive a premium in exchange for it, it appears that Airbnb can refund for a whole "host" of reasons when they deem it appropriate.
Going forward, Airbnb owners should understand with eyes wide open that they in the position of insurer for many circumstances. They likely didn't realize that until COVID.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
I can't stand people that play the victim and think they should be compensated any time something bad happens. People lose jobs. Someone steps on a mine and loses a leg. A spouse commits suicide. A virus makes it dangerous for people to travel or share homes and you lose money.
Suck it up, Buttercup. Figure out how to prepare for a downturn and you'll thrive while others fall apart.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
I can't stand people that play the victim and think they should be compensated any time something bad happens. People lose jobs. Someone steps on a mine and loses a leg. A spouse commits suicide. A virus makes it dangerous for people to travel or share homes and you lose money.
Suck it up, Buttercup. Figure out how to prepare for a downturn and you'll thrive while others fall apart.
You're a moderator? Posting in the short term vacation rental forum? Telling the Short term rental owners to "suck it up buttercup?"
Guess anyone can be a moderator nowadays.
You do realize this is how 99% of the people here literally make their livings?
You do realize that rental contracts are legally binding contracts?
.... And if you decided to sue each guest (assuming you have a signed rental agreement) you would win?
You do realize theres this mysterious thing called.... Travel insurance?
Why are "buttercups" expected to grunt 100% of the losses, superseding legally binding rental agreements, while travels get to walk away with zero financial impact? Would 50% be THAT unfair? Is it THAT unreasonable to even imply that guests share some of the financial burdens?
You do realize this is no more the hosts fault than the travelers?
You do realize i'm still required to pay my mortgage, property taxes, insurance, electricity, HOA, and 20 other things?
But nice to know we're "buttercups"
- 6yMichael BaumPro MemberOlympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 7k+ votes
Nothing in life is certain except death. You have to be prepared for adversity in any business. I hear what @Nathan Gesner is saying. A lot of folks are spread too thin and aren't able to sustain their model for any length of time when the going gets rough.
That isn't AirBNB/Verbo's fault. Personally I can have our place without guests for good, but I don't make a living renting it.
If you rely on real estate as your income, you need to be prepared. Just like with anything else.
- San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Jeremy W.:
18,000+ people have signed this petition:
https://www.change.org/p/airbnb-airbnb-breach-of-contract-class-action-lawsuit-violate-cancellation-policiesWhat should AirBnB have done differently?
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Jeremy W.:
18,000+ people have signed this petition:
https://www.change.org/p/airbnb-airbnb-breach-of-contract-class-action-lawsuit-violate-cancellation-policiesWhat should AirBnB have done differently?
Honor their cancellation policies agreed to by both the host and guest PRIOR to any reservations being made?
Or, if THEY decide to supersede it, pay more than 12.5% to hosts in compensation to those who had 'strict' cancellation policies in place? They're hosing hosts big-time while bending over for guests. Perhaps keep things balanced between hosts and guests? After all, this is no more a hosts fault than a guests AND guests have the burden of travel insurance, NOT hosts.
Still, no idea why this is such an unpopular opinion. Our society sure is getting entitled.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike V.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Jeremy W.:
18,000+ people have signed this petition:
https://www.change.org/p/airbnb-airbnb-breach-of-contract-class-action-lawsuit-violate-cancellation-policiesWhat should AirBnB have done differently?
Honor their cancellation policies agreed to by both the host and guest PRIOR to any reservations being made?
Or, if THEY decide to supersede it, pay more than 12.5% to hosts in compensation to those who had 'strict' cancellation policies in place? They're hosing hosts big-time while bending over for guests. Perhaps keep things balanced between hosts and guests? After all, this is no more a hosts fault than a guests AND guests have the burden of travel insurance, NOT hosts.
Still, no idea why this is such an unpopular opinion. Our society sure is getting entitled.
Short term rentals are a hospitality business. That means they face a higher degree of risk than long term rentals. The expectation is that refunds will be given from short term rentals, hotels, airlines in the event there is a force majeure. Just because a short term rental owner doesnt know what the concept of force majeure is, it does not exempt them from it.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike V.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Jeremy W.:
18,000+ people have signed this petition:
https://www.change.org/p/airbnb-airbnb-breach-of-contract-class-action-lawsuit-violate-cancellation-policiesWhat should AirBnB have done differently?
Honor their cancellation policies agreed to by both the host and guest PRIOR to any reservations being made?
Or, if THEY decide to supersede it, pay more than 12.5% to hosts in compensation to those who had 'strict' cancellation policies in place? They're hosing hosts big-time while bending over for guests. Perhaps keep things balanced between hosts and guests? After all, this is no more a hosts fault than a guests AND guests have the burden of travel insurance, NOT hosts.
Still, no idea why this is such an unpopular opinion. Our society sure is getting entitled.
I don't know how AirBnB works for hosts. Honestly, when I am looking for accommodations, I don't like using AirBnB because in the couple of experience I've had, I didn't feel they were as professionally run as a hotel, and I decided I'd rather pay more money for a hotel. As a hotel guest, I'm able to cancel my reservations without penalty, normally. Why would AirBnB hosts expect something different? AirBnB doesn't guarantee that nobody will ever cancel, do they?
I'm sorry you're having a hard time, but when you mention "entitlement," it seems to me that you are behaving like you are entitled to having guests never cancel a reservation on you. That doesn't seem realistic to me.
So, no, I'm not on board with this petition. At least not as I understand the problem so far.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike V.:
@Russell Brazil my attorney has insured me that my rental agreement holds solid, specifically citing acts of government, pandemic, natural disasters etc. is he wrong for anyone who signed my contracts?
Try to enforce it and see what the courts say. That will be your answer. Id also go sit in court sometime too, both in the administrative court as well as in district court, and you will start to become aware of several concepts....the administrative court will rule on things completely different from district court. And you will find that 100% of people in court believe they are in the right and that the law will prove that they are. While 50% of them are in fact wrong.
District Invest Group545 Reviews Excerpt from AirBNB Terms of Service that every host operating on the platform agrees to:
"19.11 No Class Actions or Representative Proceedings. You and Airbnb acknowledge and agree that, to the fullest extent permitted by law, we are each waiving the right to participate as a plaintiff or class member in any purported class action lawsuit, class-wide arbitration, private attorney-general action, or any other representative proceeding as to all Disputes.”
Is it enforceable? I have no idea. I'm not a lawyer. But I know from reading the news over the years that AirBNB is no stranger to lawsuits: they literally have a small army of nearly 150 in-house lawyers, consisting of top Harvard, Oxford, and Yale grads. I've followed many of their lawsuits and I wouldn't want to litigate against them.
On one hand they advertise themselves as a "trusted community marketplace" with "world-class customer service", but legally they are set up as nothing more than an online platform hosting whatever people post, and are no more responsible for their listings, their hosts, or their guests than Craigslist is for the results of bringing people together through its classifieds.
Mike, are you saying your contract gives you the right to evict even in the face of a pandemic? Or when forbidden by the government? I mean if it guarantees tenants have to pay rent during those events then the other parts, such as eviction, must still be in effect as well.
I would REALLY suggest not trying that argument in court, we have a bad enough name. Hopefully it would only cost you legal fees. I can’t even imagine if the tenant went to the local media.
- Rental Property Investor · Ithaca, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
@Jeremy W.
AirBNB just came out saying they are sorry for not consulting with hosts first and will refund hosts for the loss money. Only 25% though. They are also making a Superhost Fund to grant Superhosts money to help pay for expenses. Seems to me they figured out they made a wrong move prematurely.
- Hatfield, PA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 629 votes6y
To some of the posts above, you do realize we are in a pandemic? Blaming Airbnb and waving contracts and threatening class actions seems a little like fleas arguing over dog ownership.
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes6y
By the time a class action lawsuit even sees the courts it will be years .
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike V.:
Guess anyone can be a moderator nowadays.
You do realize this is how 99% of the people here literally make their livings?
You do realize that rental contracts are legally binding contracts?
.... And if you decided to sue each guest (assuming you have a signed rental agreement) you would win?
You do realize theres this mysterious thing called.... Travel insurance?
Why are "buttercups" expected to grunt 100% of the losses, superseding legally binding rental agreements, while travels get to walk away with zero financial impact? Would 50% be THAT unfair? Is it THAT unreasonable to even imply that guests share some of the financial burdens?
You do realize this is no more the hosts fault than the travelers?
You do realize i'm still required to pay my mortgage, property taxes, insurance, electricity, HOA, and 20 other things?
But nice to know we're "buttercups"
Yes, the moderator standards are pretty low around here. All it took was about 6,000 posts and 9,000 votes.
You've chosen to invest in an island and cater to vacationers. Your investment comes with risk, like every investment. If you're willing to make good money in good times, you have to accept the risk that you may lose money in bad times.
Can you imagine a class-action lawsuit against the stock market? I have a friend in his 70's that just lost half a million in the last month. You know his response? Suck it up, buttercup! Being a mature person with a few years under his belt, he understands the basic principle of investing: you win some, you lose some.
I bought a vacation rental near Yellowstone National Park and planned to start marketing it this month. Instead, we're sucking up the expenses while waiting to see what happens. Tourism is important to my entire community. Not only do I expect my vacation rental to fail miserably this year, my community could be hit hard which affects my property management business, my employees, my friends, my family, etc. You win some, you lose some.
Investments come with risk and we have to be willing to accept the good with the bad. We need to save up so we can pay our mortgages, property taxes, insurance, and other expenses when times are lean. So, yeah. I think people should suck it up. Stop trying to sue for something that's beyond our control and start working on finding solutions to your problems. And if you're doing better than those around you, try to find ways to help out.
This too, shall pass.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews I don’t understand what the lawsuit is for ? Airbnb owners are mad because of bookings they had already that were refunded to the guests ? Seems like spilt milk. I mean the guest didn’t actually stay there due to a pandemic. I would refund as well.
- Rental Property Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 76 votes6y
AirBnB argued in a major European lawsuit that the reason they should be regulated differently than Uber/Lyft or other similar companies is because AirBNB only provides a ‘platform’ to connect consumers and does not set or interfere with pricing or individual contracts.
By acting only as a middleman they have been able to avoid millions and possibly billions of dollars of regulatory red tape.
However, by stepping in and canceling contracts I believe that Airbnb has stepped outside the bounds of being merely a platform connecting consumers.
I think with some legal pressure AirBNB would much rather settle with hosts than have to potentially re-litigate cases they have already won.
This is the underlying reason I believe they agreed to cough up the 25% back to hosts. I’m sure by accepting the 25% rebate hosts will have to agree to forego any future legal action.
The question I have is, is it worth it to ruin a previously prosperous relationship with AirBNB over hopefully 6-8 weeks of rental income?
Would they go so far as to downgrade the visibility of host listings that have complained or joined a lawsuit?
My strategy is to sit tight. Weather the storm. In the meantime I am actively looking into adding VRBO as well as converting a portion of my properties to long term rentals.
- 6yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Mike V.:
@Russell Brazil my attorney has insured me that my rental agreement holds solid, specifically citing acts of government, pandemic, natural disasters etc. is he wrong for anyone who signed my contracts?
reality is you will probably spend more on legal fee's than you get and just because a lawyer says your right.. the judge can rule against you happens all the time.
- 6yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @Mike V.:
Guess anyone can be a moderator nowadays.
You do realize this is how 99% of the people here literally make their livings?
You do realize that rental contracts are legally binding contracts?
.... And if you decided to sue each guest (assuming you have a signed rental agreement) you would win?
You do realize theres this mysterious thing called.... Travel insurance?
Why are "buttercups" expected to grunt 100% of the losses, superseding legally binding rental agreements, while travels get to walk away with zero financial impact? Would 50% be THAT unfair? Is it THAT unreasonable to even imply that guests share some of the financial burdens?
You do realize this is no more the hosts fault than the travelers?
You do realize i'm still required to pay my mortgage, property taxes, insurance, electricity, HOA, and 20 other things?
But nice to know we're "buttercups"
Yes, the moderator standards are pretty low around here. All it took was about 6,000 posts and 9,000 votes.
You've chosen to invest in an island and cater to vacationers. Your investment comes with risk, like every investment. If you're willing to make good money in good times, you have to accept the risk that you may lose money in bad times.
Can you imagine a class-action lawsuit against the stock market? I have a friend in his 70's that just lost half a million in the last month. You know his response? Suck it up, buttercup! Being a mature person with a few years under his belt, he understands the basic principle of investing: you win some, you lose some.
I bought a vacation rental near Yellowstone National Park and planned to start marketing it this month. Instead, we're sucking up the expenses while waiting to see what happens. Tourism is important to my entire community. Not only do I expect my vacation rental to fail miserably this year, my community could be hit hard which affects my property management business, my employees, my friends, my family, etc. You win some, you lose some.
Investments come with risk and we have to be willing to accept the good with the bad. We need to save up so we can pay our mortgages, property taxes, insurance, and other expenses when times are lean. So, yeah. I think people should suck it up. Stop trying to sue for something that's beyond our control and start working on finding solutions to your problems. And if you're doing better than those around you, try to find ways to help out.
This too, shall pass.
they never asked me to be a Moderator LOL..
I think if air bnb and hosts did not do this IE refund or not charge.. that it could very well have hurt the industry ( STR ) far more than losing a month or two of income. Those folks may just say screw it not renting those things anymore if thats the way they are going to be in a world wide crisis. remember they dont give a rip about you or your finances.. and frankly there is risk in business .. when its good you make a lot of money when its bad maybe you lose some money.. those are the risk we all take in ANY NICHE in real estate.
I mean look at the post now of those who drank the BRRRR cool aid and most of the QM and non owner occ lenders put a freeze on lending and they are stuck with HML with no exit.. or cant pull their cash out.. or those that are doing NON owner one week they were charging say 5.5% but this week its 9% interest these are just the risks..
- Hatfield, PA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 629 votes6y
And each wins $12 five years from now
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:reality is you will probably spend more on legal fee's than you get and just because a lawyer says your right.. the judge can rule against you happens all the time.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike V.:
@Russell Brazil my attorney has insured me that my rental agreement holds solid, specifically citing acts of government, pandemic, natural disasters etc. is he wrong for anyone who signed my contracts?
Mike for your own good, you need to look at this logically. No attorney will guarantee any outcome, but they will take your money to fight in court. You will need to sue each person individually. How much will this cost for an attorney, versus potential gain for you? Will your attorney guarantee a win or your money back (ask them)? You can put whatever you want in a contract, but that doesn't mean it will be enforceable. People put clauses in contracts all the time that are deemed illegal or unenforceable. The federal government and CDC alerted everyone in the country to not engage in unnecessary travel. That was done at a time of national emergency under risk of health safety. Your guest could simply argue that you had no way to ensure their health safety and traveling to your property was in fact dangerous. Following that argument, your property was not available to occupy, therefore breach of contract. It would be like trying to enforce a contract if your property burned to the ground. Even if your legal argument is strong, do you think the judge is going to want the backlash of awarding you damages? Take that to court and you will end up on social media as the evil property owner. You and your family will be dragged through the mud.
As far as the class action lawsuit, I am not sure what that gains. Let's say this class action petition does result in litigation that is successful. What is the outcome? First of all, you are suing the companies that give you all your business. That means one of two outcomes, either you force them to pay or you force them out of business. If you force them to pay, here is what happens. First of all, the attorney's get half the money. Secondly, your damage settlements are a fraction of real damages. Third and most important, the money will just come from increasing fees on hosts. It is like suing yourself.
I think what some people are trying to say is that you entered into business and with that you took on risk. I read these forums every day. I can't count the number of STR owners who have bragged about their insanely profitable business. Young people quitting their great W2 jobs after buying two STR. They declared, "I am retired on two properties." and many said, "what is the worst that happens, I go back to my W2 job?" Well the bad news is that nobody is hiring and the worse news is that many of these people were running grossly under capitalized businesses. That insane profit should have been going in the bank. People made bad choices and they told people who warned them to shut up.I see people saying, who could predict a pandemic? Well, given the fact that we that SARS hit China hard in 2003, swine flu hit US hard in 2009 and ebola hit Africa hard in 2014, the likelihood of something like this was predictable. Almost to the point of being obvious. Not to mention vacation areas can get hit with any number of devastating disasters like fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, terrorism, flooding, tornadoes, air travel disruption or even just economic disaster. The travel industry was damaged greatly after September 11th. I saw first hand as I flew on empty airplanes the month after September 11th. My point is recent history has served up plenty of warnings and people ignored them.
This is happening. At this point you need to focus on a mitigation plan to protect your business. Suing people is not a mitigation plan. Thousands of businesses will never reopen. People lost their retirement in the stock market. Many will end up loosing property and filing bankruptcy. People are dying. I hope you, your friends and family all stay safe. Best of luck to you.
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