New member from San Diego, but looking out of state

New member from San Diego, but looking out of state

New to Real Estate · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 49 posts · 6 votes

Hi Everyone!!

This post turned out to be longer than I intended, you’ve been warned :)

I joined BP a few months ago, but just recently started really diving into the site and can’t get enough.

A little about myself, and where I want to go.

I live in San Diego, and was thinking of buying something during the last market crash, but was glad I didn’t since I had no idea about the 1% rule and all the other tips and tricks needed to make sure property cash flowed. That being said, I think I still would have lucked out and gotten quite a bit of appreciation, as the market is up quite a bit since then. My main goal however is cash flow as I don’t want to rely on potential appreciation as an investment strategy. Currently, I still rent.

As luck would have it, instead of buying something for myself, I ended up getting a house in Temecula for my parents (story for another time) and that house has now appreciated 50% in the past 4 years, with most of that coming in the last year. It didn’t meet the 1% rule then, still doesn’t even with the appreciation. Even still, I think market rent would just cover the mortgage if I ever had to rent it out., so that’s a little bit of a plus.

So that’s where I’m coming from, as far as where I want to go…my main goal is to create a stream of “passive” income which at some point would be high enough to cover my humble expenses, thus giving me a choice to do whatever I want, allowing me to quit the rat race being one option. I started on the stock market path a few years back, but haven’t really jumped in before seeing better returns in real estate. Stocks are one way, RE is another to get to the same end goal. Eventually I’ll do a little of both to diversify.

Since this is a RE blog, I’ve come to the conclusion that many California RE investors have, and have decided I have to go out of state to invest. At least for cash flow. That’s fine with me, so the next step was trying to find some good markets where the 1% rule was easily achieved. I’m looking to focus on buy and hold SFHs rentals using a property manager, but would also be interested in teaming up with investors in some of my targeted markets below on quicker deals to build up some capital as I go.

After going through some forum posts here, it looks like several markets have their positives and negatives, with places like Indy and KC being solid for cash flow (my main goal) but low on appreciation (not my primary goal anyway), whereas places in Texas are typically lower cash flowing, but higher on the appreciation front. So the next step is figuring out where to start.

I know the recent hot markets include Atlanta and several cities in Texas, but it seems like those markets are all super hot. I would love to find the next hot place and think I’m going to start looking into the following markets:

Indianapolis or other high cash flow cities – Since my main goal is consistent cash flow over appreciation, I figure I would look to Indy to get my feet wet and go from there. I’ve also heard Kansas City might be another good cash flow city. Any others?

Texas – Even though there might not be the plethora of deals there were a few years ago, the quality of the growth of these markets make them appealing. Some of the areas include Austin,

Dallas-Ft. Worth, Houston and maybe even San Antonio.

Utah – I’ve been reading a few different things recently about Utah showing signs of being the next strong market, with a few solid cities, including Salt Lake City, Ogden and Provo. I like this market as its kind of close to California and I’ve been to Salt Lake and Ogden numerous times on snowboarding trips.

Florida – I don’t really know anything about the Florida market, but have heard it’s also growing so I figure I would at least do some due diligence. And it would be a great excuse to maybe even spend a week out there.

North Carolina - I’ve heard some good things about Raleigh and Charlotte, so they’re on the due diligence list as well.

Some other potential areas of interest include some of my favorite ski area destinations like

Denver, Idaho (Boise and Coeur d'Alene), and Seattle/Bellingham although these are more for my own personal interest and might not really be good investment locations.

I doubt I’ll have time to look into all these markets, and want to start by picking up my first property in a high cash flow market (Indy or KC, etc), and then research Texas, Utah and North Carolina and go from there.

I look forward to networking with the BP community and any help or insights would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Sundeep

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Encinitas, CA · Member since 2011 · 192 posts · 252 votes
12y

Greetings Sundeep,

I too am based in San Diego County and like you have only recently started diving into the site.

One of the common themes I am seeing here is that cash flow oriented investors are looking outside of California to other markets.

True, it is much more difficult in the current environment to find real estate opportunities that paper out. I am a longtime investor in California, so what I am about to say may seem a bit divergent from what the consensus seems to be. It may also have more to do with my personality and the way I choose to manage risk.

In 2004-2005, I reached the same conclusion. California made no sense from a cash flow perspective. I began traveling to out of state markets to investigate new markets. Based on what I learned, I did not pull the trigger and invest anywhere out of state.

One thing I learned, was when locals learn you are from California, the price seems to go up. You tend to get offered properties at prices and terms very different from what locals would ever pay. There seemed to be an assumption that Californians were rich who would not mind over paying based on what they were used to in California. Almost like I had a "kick me" sign on my back.

Another thing I could not get comfortable with was finding property managers who you could trust, both in ability and judgment. Most talked a pretty good game, but once I started doing due diligence and looking at the properties they were actually managing, I kept getting discouraged. Of course, if you have prior relationships with someone whose judgment and ability you trust is actually local to where you are looking, then you have a bigger advantage.

The fact of being thousands of miles away from a property you own was something I could not overcome, at least in my mind. For instance, I had an issue here in California on one of my properties a while back where I needed a heat pump repair. The first vendor came out and said I needed to do an entire replacement for $4500. Did not seem right, and I was able to determine with another vendor that there was a line leak that was easily repaired. If my property were out of state, what could I have done? Paid for a new heat pump I did not need most likely.

I am sure there are those Californians who do just fine investing out of state. But for me, I have become comfortable staying put. It just means you have to look harder in the areas you know, stay patient, and look for “forced appreciation” opportunities, situations where an investment is based on taking a current “non-papering” property to a better place based on vision and a plan specific to that property. But that is something that I could only do locally, can’t imagine trying to do that out of state.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    @Sundeep Amin welcome to BP. I'm sure you're going to get a lot of good advice on here. I'm from CA myself so I know your dilemma well. Nothing cash flows here. I work with lots of CA investors buying out of state for that reason. I like that you're primary objective is cash flow and not appreciation. Appreciation is nice but it's not something we have any control over as we all saw in 2008. I host a weekly radio show and the topic of this weeks show will be cash flow v. appreciation. I think you're right to be looking at both Indy and Kansas City. I know both these markets well and I like them a lot for cash flow. You can easily get 1.2 to 1.5 ratio's there. Dallas is a good stable market with a great economy. The cash flow isn't as good though. The rent/price ratio is just barely 1%. Dallas has both high property taxes and high homeowners insurance which eats in to your cash flow. I wrote a report on investing out of state that I can send you if you'd like.

  • Huntington, WV · Member since 2014 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    12y

    I'm a novice, just getting started on front-end research. My primary focus is coastal Carolina's and Florida at this point. Would be glad to share some of my thoughts and findings gathered over the past few weeks, specifically on Florida.

  • Encinitas, CA · Member since 2011 · 192 posts · 252 votes
    12y

    Greetings Sundeep,

    I too am based in San Diego County and like you have only recently started diving into the site.

    One of the common themes I am seeing here is that cash flow oriented investors are looking outside of California to other markets.

    True, it is much more difficult in the current environment to find real estate opportunities that paper out. I am a longtime investor in California, so what I am about to say may seem a bit divergent from what the consensus seems to be. It may also have more to do with my personality and the way I choose to manage risk.

    In 2004-2005, I reached the same conclusion. California made no sense from a cash flow perspective. I began traveling to out of state markets to investigate new markets. Based on what I learned, I did not pull the trigger and invest anywhere out of state.

    One thing I learned, was when locals learn you are from California, the price seems to go up. You tend to get offered properties at prices and terms very different from what locals would ever pay. There seemed to be an assumption that Californians were rich who would not mind over paying based on what they were used to in California. Almost like I had a "kick me" sign on my back.

    Another thing I could not get comfortable with was finding property managers who you could trust, both in ability and judgment. Most talked a pretty good game, but once I started doing due diligence and looking at the properties they were actually managing, I kept getting discouraged. Of course, if you have prior relationships with someone whose judgment and ability you trust is actually local to where you are looking, then you have a bigger advantage.

    The fact of being thousands of miles away from a property you own was something I could not overcome, at least in my mind. For instance, I had an issue here in California on one of my properties a while back where I needed a heat pump repair. The first vendor came out and said I needed to do an entire replacement for $4500. Did not seem right, and I was able to determine with another vendor that there was a line leak that was easily repaired. If my property were out of state, what could I have done? Paid for a new heat pump I did not need most likely.

    I am sure there are those Californians who do just fine investing out of state. But for me, I have become comfortable staying put. It just means you have to look harder in the areas you know, stay patient, and look for “forced appreciation” opportunities, situations where an investment is based on taking a current “non-papering” property to a better place based on vision and a plan specific to that property. But that is something that I could only do locally, can’t imagine trying to do that out of state.

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    12y

    Welcome to the site @Sundeep Amin

  • Jonna WeberPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 736 votes
    12y

    Welcome from Boise, Sundeep! Please feel free to contact me if you'd ever like to discuss the Boise market. You've hit on a wonderful site to educate yourself on the different markets!

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 557 votes
    12y

    Welcome @Sundeep Amin !

  • Ronaoke, TX · Member since 2014 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    12y

    welcome sundeep,

    I recently started out in the dallas area and researching the suburbs. Let me know if I can be of any help.

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Welcome! Good plans with everything and that's awesome about the Temecula house. You can use that equity easy to buy more properties!

    I wrote an article just a couple weeks ago about how to choose between markets. I'll attach it. It covers some of the ones you mention. FL is a tough one because insurance and taxes are really high there so you are unlikely to find good cash flow. The ski cities have higher prices and not enough rent, so like Denver and those may be out too. Atlanta used to be amazing, you can still get deals there, but it's not as hot as it used to be. TX are always hot but yes lower on cash flow. Indy is more stable but like you say, little appreciation potential. Maybe this will help-

    http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2014/02/22/which-market-should-you-buy-in/

  • Brandon TurnerPro Member
    Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Hey @Sundeep Amin Thanks for jumping in and introducing yourself! If you haven't yet- be sure to setup some "Keyword Alerts."

    See you around the site!

  • New to Real Estate · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 49 posts · 6 votes
    12y

    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks for reaching out and offering some information. I've already gotten in contact with several of you and will continue to follow up over the next few days. Lots to think about already.

    Sundeep

  • Sheffield, IL · Member since 2012 · 85 posts · 27 votes
    12y

    Welcome! I'm also an out-of-state investor in some of the markets you mentioned and would be happy to share my experiences. Check out my profile and contact me if you are interested.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 646 posts · 392 votes
    12y

    Hi @Sundeep Amin

    Welcome to BP! The greatest RE resource out there.. If you are looking at Atlanta market hit me up I can provide some pointers.

    I am a investor here in Atlanta and would be happy to share insights.

    Happy Investing and Good Luck

  • Involved In Real Estate · Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2013 · 12 posts · 1 vote
    12y

    Hi Sundeep! We are from CA- first Northern, then OC, and have been living and investing in Utah the past couple of years- it's truly fantastic, for a number of reasons! Let me know if I can answer specific questions for you on the market here! Best of luck to you...

  • Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2013 · 83 posts · 18 votes
    12y

    Sundeep,

    We seem to be kindred spirits of sorts, as I have been through the same analysis over the last couple of years, not to mention we both live in the best place on earth! (shhh, let's keep that a secret!)

    Reading through this topic, I can see you already received some good advice. Let's connect and I can share with you more about what I have found. By the way, add Nashville to your list of prospects. If you do, you'll see why.

    ~Josh

    [email protected]

  • New to Real Estate · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 49 posts · 6 votes
    12y

    Hello again,

    I just wanted to quickly follow up:

    @Mike D'Arrigo Thanks for reaching out, I've been reviewing your site and materials and am very much in line of your analysis of out of state investing and turnkey operators, I'll definitely stay in touch.

    @Jon Gable Thanks for reaching out, lots of stuff to absorb being a fellow newbie. Florida and the Carolina's are on my master list, but maybe a little lower on the priority list. That being said, I would welcome and appreciate any insights on what you've been finding.

    @Rob K. Rob, great post! I think you hit on the biggest issues those of us contemplating out of state investing have. Great tip on looking out for getting hit with any kind of California premium. As to the other things you definitely need to put your trust in your team, which means you need to find a solid team, and then stay on top of them. I think that's one of the more daunting things in going forward with out of state investing, but I think I'm comfortable with that risk, once I've done my due diligence and feel confident in anyone I've decided to work with.

    @James Wise Thanks for reaching out and sending me some info on your market, I've gotten a chance to look into it and will likely be in touch with some questions.

    @Jonna Weber I've been to Idaho twice on ski trips and have had great trips both times. Although Idaho wasn't a main market for me, perhaps it might be something I can try a vacation rental with in the future. Would be interested to hear what the market is like now regardless, you can never have too much info...well maybe you can, but I'd still like to hear what you have to say. :)

    @Shawn Holsapple Thanks, good to be here!

    @Deepak Jinka Texas is on my list, may shoot you a message to see what you've been finding in Dallas, thanks!

    @Ali Boone Hi Ali, I've actually been a follower of your blog for a little while, not sure if I found you through BP or some other way, but thanks for linking to that article, lots of good info there for us newbies! Especially like the scale of risk and return and all the variables that factor into it.

    @Brandon Turner Thanks for the welcome and keyword alerts have been set! Also want to say the podcasts are great. I've been working out in Bakersfield, CA driving from San Diego the past few weeks and likely months going forward and have been knocking out a couple podcasts each way. Lots of great insights and well worth the time to listen for anyone who hasn't yet!

    @Steve Endress HI Steve, awesome profile bio. You hit on one of my concerns about out of state investing and how people say there's more CF on lower quality places. My thinking is similar to yours with regard to maybe sacrificing some returns for a much higher quality place and hopefully a higher quality tenant. I also feel that the higher quality place will appreciate even in cool markets because of the quality and am glad you seem to be finding that out first hand. Am also interested in how you've set up your financing as I feel I'll run out of my own money much faster than I'll run out of potential investments. Would love to stay in touch and have sent a colleague request.

    @Azeez K. Hi Azeez, I'm of the impression Atlanta is cooling off a little, but wouldn't mind being wrong. Keep an eye out for an email or request from me to discuss your market a little more.

    @Jen Bowen Hi Jen, I'll def get in touch with you about the Utah market. Glad to hear you left Cali and are doing well out there and would love to hear your take on the RE market there. Love your $100k in passive income goal as well!

    @Josh Rich Thanks for reaching out, sent you a colleague request already. Would like to stay in touch as we're both around the same point in our RE journey with similar goals.

    Thanks everyone!

  • Specialist · Rockland, MA · Member since 2010 · 7k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Sundeep Amin

    Below is a list of top emerging markets across the country. An emerging market is defined as a location of job growth and local government support for the growth.

    Below that is a list of the top 10 markets for foreign investors. You can email me for the article.

    Paul

    TOP EMERGING MARKETS

    HOUSTON, TX CHARLESTON, SC ATLANTA, GA

    LAS VEGAS GREENVILLE, NC CHICAGO, IL

    DALLAS, TX RALEIGH, NC MINNEAPOLIS, MN

    CHARLOTTE, NC PHOENIX, AZ LOGAN, UT

    BISMARK, ND COLLEGE STATION, TX LEBANON, PA

    MORGANTOWN, WV ITHACA, NY FARGO, ND

    IOWA CITY, IA LONGVIEW, TX STATE COLLEGE, PA

    The 10 markets, ranked by highest share of foreign buyers, according to public records data, are:

    1. Lakeland-Winter Haven, Fla.
    2. Cape Coral-Fort Myers, Fla.
    3. Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, Fla.
    4. North Point-Bradenton-Sarasota, Fla.
    5. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, Fla.
    6. Phoenix-Mesa-Glendale, Ariz.
    7. New York County, N.Y. (Manhattan)
    8. Honolulu, Hawaii.
    9. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, Fla.
    10. Las Vegas-Paradise, Nev.
  • New to Real Estate · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 49 posts · 6 votes
    12y

    @Paul Timmins Thanks for the reach out Paul, will look into your info and get back to you.

  • New to Real Estate · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 49 posts · 6 votes
    12y

    Not sure why the @people's name thing didn't work in my post above, but I'll try it again here. Sorry for the double post.

    @Brandon Turner @Ali Boone @Azeez K. @Jonna Weber @Jon Gable @Josh Rich @Steve Endress @Jen Bowen @Deepak Jinka @Shawn Holsapple @Rob K. @James Wise

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2012 · 128 posts · 56 votes
    12y

    Hi @Sundeep Amin When I started out 10 years ago, I compared two opportunities - one close to home, the other turnkey in a distant market I had researched but ultimately didn't know well enough. I chose the distant turnkey in a hot market and it wasn't a winning strategy.

    I learned my lesson and have since done well.

    For investors starting out, my view is that it's better to invest in a market you know extremely well. It doesn't have to be the market where you live, but you do have to learn it. Make as many local contacts as you can and get their opinions. Talk to investors, property managers and realtors. You'll get good perspectives from all.

    People look for quick and easy wins, but it doesn't work that way. The more knowledge you have up front, the greater your chance of success in the end.

    I don't have a specific market recommendation, but feel free to let me know if you want to discuss long distance investing.

    Set your strategy, decide on your market, do the research and always run the numbers before you buy.

  • Contractor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 112 posts · 67 votes
    12y

    @Paul Timmins

    I've searched the web a bit to find the list of emerging markets that you have listed here. I see a good number of lists but not this one. Can you share your source?

  • Specialist · Rockland, MA · Member since 2010 · 7k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Chris Christianson

    Research from 2 of the big 5 commercial broker firms and some research from my company.

    Paul

  • Real Estate Investor · Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Hello Sundeep (All investors). KC is a good market to be in prices don't appreciate as some other regions but cash flow is there. Since KC sits on the border of 2 states with ideal large companies I.e. Sprint, Hallmark there are many neighboring communities that will provide the returns youre looking for. If you ever need assistance in determining which areas you'd be interested in please reach out. I would be more than willing to share what I know.

  • Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2014 · 42 posts · 3 votes
    12y

    @Sundeep Amin So have you narrowed down your markets? This post is worthy of a bump as I know there are many San Diego, Orange and Los Angeles County investors with the same frustrations about investing locally; myself included. @everyone else, Would investing in commercial re make more sense than SFR when going the absentee route from a buy and hold standpoint?

  • New to Real Estate · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 49 posts · 6 votes
    12y

    @Louis Radosevich

    Well, my initial thought when I first started was that I wanted to get into buy and hold rentals that cash flowed, and I think I still do kind of. Based on that some of the markets that look decent are mostly the ones I noted in my first post, Indy, KC, cities in Texas, and maybe some Ohio cities as a new market. I haven't picked any, but have since been listening to podcasts and going through my key word searches just to get some RE education.

    My hesitation is not knowing the out of state markets, having to invest time to visit and vet a team and backups, and then having to go into maybe lower tier properties. Not insurmountable obstacles, but its more than just buying a place and expecting everything to go well without putting in that time. To be fair, that vetting should be done even for local investing, but it's a lot easier to do locally than 1000 miles away.

    The podcasts are incredible value if anyone wants to know, lots of great info there from people who are doing the RE thing successfully everyday.

    Based on the various strategies I've heard on the podcasts, I've decided to keep learning and maybe even give CA investing another chance. It's a different strategy, but something I feel I should at least look into before dismissing so quickly, so that's where I'm at, doing more research.

    I'm not sure about commercial RE, if you're talking about multi families. It seems like that's where a lot of investors are evolving to once they've built up assets to trade up into, but based on a lot of things I've heard on the podcasts, if you can find the deals, the money will be there.

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Good choice. One of my early mentors used to say "Why look across town when you haven't really looked in your own neighborhood yet." Same goes for cities out of state. Those encouraging you to do so should disclose their desire to sell you their own smokin hot, cash flowin deals. They're so good, they can't wait to get rid of them! I met with a guy today and he is well aware of my anti out of state stance. He said to me, "When I first got started I bought a few houses in Texas. Worst deals I've ever done."

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