Hello everyone! I'm Dayna, and I'm currently in South Florida. My husband and I have our home on the market, and we're taking our equity and moving to Pittsburgh as soon as we sell.
I've been an accidental flipper in the past. I bought an ugly condo on Comm Ave in Boston, and lived in and remodeled it for seven months while learning every lesson learnable and making every mistake makable. I put down slate tile with cheap pre-mixed thin-set and then had to get friendly with a pry bar and start all over when I realized my error. I pulled off a toilet with no plumbing skills or idea how to reset it. I probably spent 50% more than I needed to had I known what I was doing but in the end my net profit was just under $40,000 in a down market.
We'd like to make a serious, more informed go of fix-and-flipping in the Pittsburgh market. There are some nice investor opportunities there and their home prices have remained stable through the boom and bust.
I've been a long time BP podcast listener and decided that it was time to come here to learn and engage. Good to meet you all!
An early welcome back to Pittsburgh, @Dayna Jung!
No offense meant to @Jeremy T. but I must respectfully disagree about the usefulness of that City Data, Allegheny County Crime Map. I have personally spent time in almost every one of those outlined areas over past couple months and more times than I can count over the years. I happen to live about a quarter mile from one of the black shaded areas on the map. Yesterday my girlfriend and I even dared to bike across the entire length of the hill district (black shaded, outlined in red = Worst of the worst according to the City data folks) on our way to Oakland from Downtown, even stopped to quench our thirst at Grandma B's haha. The other night we were up there for a party and had an amazing time. We bike through Homewood to Wilkinsburg often to visit some of favorite spots in those neighborhoods such as Biddle's Escape. Shot the **** with some dudes on the corner of N. Charles and Perrysville just a few weeks back and biked through every street in Manchester this morning enjoying the beautiful weather and gorgeous architecture. I have not felt unsafe in any of these "areas to avoid", though even if it should go without saying, I use basic street smarts when rolling through any familiar or unfamiliar area.
At best this map is incredibly dated and lacking in any sort nuance that would show an actual intimate knowledge of the areas presented and perhaps provide some relevant & useful analysis. At worst it unfairly targets communities of color, uses insensitive language and will ensure that, if followed, you are cut off from many of the areas that currently represent some of the best investment opportunities in the city. And I'll tell you from first hand experience, it is this type of perspective taken by those who invest in communities but do not deign to live there nor participate & engage with the populace that creates so much anger towards investors & landlords in many of these communities.
If you want to live and/or invest in the burbs then City Data will be the right source of information for you. But if you know the value of our legacy communities and that we are in the upswing of a new urban paradigm, then avoid City Data like a plague. Those who love and know this city intimately and who respect our communities and the struggles they face have moved on to greener pastures to discuss real estate development in Pittsburgh and the surrounding legacy communities. If you ever have any interest in chatting about Allegheny CIty (what I prefer to call the Northside) feel free to hit me up.
Again, nothing personal against anyone who uses City Data, but i felt another perspective was called for in this case.
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Welcome to the Pittsburgh market! I'll be returning there after taking the bar in July. I plan to start investing as soon as I start my career as an attorney. I love it there and from my initial research think it is a great market to invest. I am very knowledgeable about all the different areas if you have any questions. Pittsburgh is sort of unique because the bad areas are actually uniquely placed. Its much different--from my experience--to most cities.
Thanks so much for the warm welcome! It's so wonderful to be among so many like-minded individuals.
It's great to meet you! I was born in Pittsburgh and have wanted to return for as long as I can remember. My husband and I want to lay down roots there, start a business raise a family. My mom is there and it's just such a lush, beautiful area. Not to mention the cost of living compared to South Florida is so much more palatable. I agree, it's a great area for investing. So many areas are in a nice gentrification process now as well. Lawrenceville is apparently the place to be hip now. Who knew?
Welcome to the Pittsburgh market Dayna!
Where are you from originally?
Since more and more people are getting interested in Pittsburgh, now seems like as good of a time as any to recycle the good ol' Allegheny County Crime Map courtesy of a city-data.com user who spends a lot of time in the "bush" around town. This map cuts through the bulls&*t, lies, and flowery nonsense I have come across in marketing materials for homes in Homewood, Lincoln/Larimer, Beltzhoover, etc.
Yes, Pittsburgh is a great cash flow market, but there is still a pretty big heroin problem in bad parts of town which happen to be quite provincial in their approach to real estate investors and outsiders of any sort, for that matter.
An early welcome back to Pittsburgh, @Dayna Jung!
No offense meant to @Jeremy T. but I must respectfully disagree about the usefulness of that City Data, Allegheny County Crime Map. I have personally spent time in almost every one of those outlined areas over past couple months and more times than I can count over the years. I happen to live about a quarter mile from one of the black shaded areas on the map. Yesterday my girlfriend and I even dared to bike across the entire length of the hill district (black shaded, outlined in red = Worst of the worst according to the City data folks) on our way to Oakland from Downtown, even stopped to quench our thirst at Grandma B's haha. The other night we were up there for a party and had an amazing time. We bike through Homewood to Wilkinsburg often to visit some of favorite spots in those neighborhoods such as Biddle's Escape. Shot the **** with some dudes on the corner of N. Charles and Perrysville just a few weeks back and biked through every street in Manchester this morning enjoying the beautiful weather and gorgeous architecture. I have not felt unsafe in any of these "areas to avoid", though even if it should go without saying, I use basic street smarts when rolling through any familiar or unfamiliar area.
At best this map is incredibly dated and lacking in any sort nuance that would show an actual intimate knowledge of the areas presented and perhaps provide some relevant & useful analysis. At worst it unfairly targets communities of color, uses insensitive language and will ensure that, if followed, you are cut off from many of the areas that currently represent some of the best investment opportunities in the city. And I'll tell you from first hand experience, it is this type of perspective taken by those who invest in communities but do not deign to live there nor participate & engage with the populace that creates so much anger towards investors & landlords in many of these communities.
If you want to live and/or invest in the burbs then City Data will be the right source of information for you. But if you know the value of our legacy communities and that we are in the upswing of a new urban paradigm, then avoid City Data like a plague. Those who love and know this city intimately and who respect our communities and the struggles they face have moved on to greener pastures to discuss real estate development in Pittsburgh and the surrounding legacy communities. If you ever have any interest in chatting about Allegheny CIty (what I prefer to call the Northside) feel free to hit me up.
Again, nothing personal against anyone who uses City Data, but i felt another perspective was called for in this case.
No offense taken with your criticism of the map. I'm just passing along information that provides an overall perspective on parts of town that, regardless of your first-hand experiences, are traditionally not very good parts of town. It was created by a c-d user who lives and spends a lot of time in those parts of town. I appreciate your commentary.
That said, your tenor does shift gears a bit as your post goes on. Look man, I understand your desire to change the perspective on those parts of town. I grew up here and would like nothing more than to see the blighted neighborhoods turn around and revitalize from the inside out. I believe that there are far more good people than bad, and that the unsavory actions of a few sully the positive efforts of many. Nevertheless, investing is about risk management. I believe my risk as an investor is much higher on Frankstown Ave than in Brighton Heights (for example).
The fact remains: Pittsburgh City Schools are, by far, the worst in the area. As such, I do not believe that people of affluence will start inhabiting these "legacy communities" en masse just because of some new "urban paradigm". The problems here run deep and are systemic and fundamental in nature. If your aim is to change that, I applaud you and wish you nothing but the best in your efforts. If you are just trying to make a few bucks cash-flow, then I'm sticking with my risk-management parameters set forth in the previous paragraph.
@Account Closed
I'm actually originally from Pittsburgh but I left while still unable to dress myself so I'm not sure how much a native I can really call myself anymore. I have always considered it my home and my mom and the products of her 8 siblings all live there, scattered all over the south hills. This is why we're moving up, and just happen to be in a really good position to invest (selling our primary residence in FL and netting between $100,000 and $138,000 after realty fees, doc stamps, prorated taxes etc., which we want to use as a cornerstone in our fix-and-flip endeavor).
I'm not, however, in a strong position to voice my opinion here, because my viewpoint is limited. First because I only know the south hills and may have crossed the river only a handful of times, and second because I've been gone for 30 years, only visiting for a few days maybe twice per year, I don't know the areas the way a local and a native might.
What I can say is that while most of my family is in Bethel, Brentwood, Finleyville and South Park, my mom lives on Haberman in Mount Washington ("Up the Mount" rather; our dialect is my favorite) and my grandmother lives on Maytide in Carrick, so I pass down the hill through Allentown and take Brownsville through Mt. Oliver to get to Carrick. While I know that one must always use good judgement in these areas, which are mostly purple on the City Data map, I've never felt unsafe in the same way I feel unsafe in a bad area of West Palm or Fort Lauderdale. I could be naive or the product of not having ever lived in Pittsburgh as an adult, but I always tell my husband "it just feels different, even the 'bad' areas."
Now, am I brave enough to invest there right away? No. We're sitting on a six figure file of capital and I think we'll probably start with the Baldwin/Whitehall area. I feel like I have a good enough handle on the area to have confidence in that. I'm also going to get a real estate license as soon as I get there. I had one in MA and it was really helpful.
I so appreciate all of the help and the differing points of view offered here. Seeing opposing perspectives and why they are held is such a helpful learning tool. You all are the greatest!