Biden, "Obama Administration misread the economy"
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Apparently the teleprompter didn't make the facts and figures clear enough.
http://www.sfexaminer.com/politics/49982712.html
Thank god they figured out they were wrong after throwing 800 billion dollars at it; at least now they are closer for throwing the next 800 billion dollars. :roll:
How's that Keynesian approach working out?
Should I sit this one out and be quiet? No, its just not possible. The reason he misread it is because he was idiot enough to start pushing for higher taxes on big business and industry who were already losing money and expect them to hire instead of lay off workers. Did you see where Microsoft wrote a letter stating they would move some of their business out of the U.S. if he expected them to be one of the major donors for this mad spending spree? I suspect they are not the only ones that will take that voyage. And of the ones who are left, I'm sure they are bracing themselves for a decrease in profit margins and hiring is the last thing on their minds.
"Representative John Boehner of Ohio, the House’s top- ranking Republican, said his party will be proven right in predictions that the stimulus legislation grew government and padded the federal deficit without creating jobs."
Well it didn't exactly take a genius to see this, now did it?
At least I tried to stay constructive...I guess I'm now done with this thread...everyone else have fun without me...
Mr_Investor --
Since you brought up Hitler, here is a quote by Hitler made before WWII:
"The National Government will .... preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life...."
Hmmm...a nation based on Christianity and family values...you're right, that does bring to mind some very specific past and present political figures, though our current President is not one of them (he's clearly stated that this isn't a Christian nation, but a nation of diverse religious beliefs).
NOW I'm officially done reading this thread, as clearly you don't want to have a constructive discussion...
Now this is not constructive is it? It is the path of least resistance, which is usually the wrong path.
The better path to take is that which W took. It is unpopular, but necessary, but it was also temporary, just as war is, to provide that period of peace that will follow.
The problem was that the patriot act was continued instead of ending like it should have. Just as it is a problem to continue a war when it has been won and the time of peace is supposed to come. The keeping of our liberties is a power grab which will not allow us to experience the blessings of having given up some liberties temporarily for the purpose of extracting those who would attack us directly.
It is the same as a government taking control of a business or two or three and being able to control what its employees do ad do not do. The loss of liberties is the same either way, except that it was supposed to be temporary the one way and I have not seen any plan to return control to the business from the government. And when tried by paying back the monies the government said NO>
Wow, this thread is priceless. And refreshing too. It's nice to come to a place where so many people feel the same way that I do about this. Being from the Chicagoland area (home of Obama) and disagreeing with his policies is frustrating. Because on the one hand, almost everyone I talk to holds this guy up on a pedestal, and on the other hand, I have a front row seat to the Chicago-esque political machine from which he was spawned. And it makes me wonder how people who are so close to the mouth of the beast, and are so affected by it at the same time, can be such sheep as to think that this guy or any of his policies was really a good idea...
P.S. Tim, that was a good one. Zing! :)
Since you brought up Hitler, here is a quote by Hitler made before WWII:
"The National Government will .... preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life...."
Absolutely correct J Scott, this is what Hitler SAID. Now, what did he DO? Just like what Obama SAID and what he is doing. I could SAY that I am pregnant, but being a 49 year old male makes that highly improbable. BUT, I said it! All through history, people have SAID things that equate to a pile of Bovine Excretement. ACTION is what counts.
Now, what did Hitler DO? What is Obama DOING?
The founding of the United States was based on many Christian Principles but also giving everyone the FREEDOM to follow whichever faith they desired.
I will go to my grave believing that the ONLY reason Obama got elected was because of his race. He got a boost from the "Bush Haters", but he beat out Hillary Clinton because of his race. There are millions of people out there today, thinking to themselves, "What did I do voting for that clown?" In no way am I saying that McCain would have done a better job, but he sure couldn't have done any worse. Sarah Palin would have done a better job, but that is for another thread. At least she had to balance a town budget, Obama has never even balanced a Lemonade Stand budget.
Amen to that Mike! No administrative experience AT ALL! He's only been in the business of politics for 3 YEARS!!! And he spent 2 of those three running for the office of president of the United States of America of all things! For goodness sake what the he!! is wrong with people!! So easily swayed by smooth talk. He posed as a moderate when he was running. Ya know what that was? A pile of "bovine excrement" (I like that one). It was a flat out, bonified lie. He is about the farthest left politician there ever was. He lied and he knew it. While the right is far from perfect, the left scares the pants off of me. Because they live and breath their ivory tower, useless ideals, they feel that the end always justifies the means. Because they know better, right? They know better than you or I what's best for us. I'd bet that in a forum like this, full of "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" entrepeneurs, that that particular world view will get no love. Whew!...Great thread.. :)
You have every right to that belief...just like all the people who believe that the only reason he's not getting more support from the conservatives is because of his race.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion...
But, like you said, that's for another thread...
Hypothetically, let's say that proves to be the case...does that mean the Keynesian approach worked and the administration deserves credit?
I'm just curious if people will give the administration credit if they are successful at turning around the economy, or if people will just find another excuse to say this administration doesn't deserve any credit...
gotta give credit where credit is due. It's not a scenario I'm particularly worried about though. Even if a short term, or a long term recovery did happen that would what, put us back where we were before, when times were good? Well that's great, except for one sticky little detail. We're still a few trillion in the hole. And it doesn't help a whole bunch to have a j-o-b, or even a business, when they're then going to have no choice but to tax the heck out of you. And your children. And your grandchildren. And so on... you get the picture. The taxes alone will ruin us all over again even in the best case scenario. Which is unlikely to begin with. And for those that think that he is just uninformed or wrong, but he's really a good guy, riddle me this. Why is it that it's been proven by now that government actually takes in more money when taxes are lower, but they still insist on increasing debt and increasing taxes. With that little tidbit of information right there on paper, if all they wanted was money, what could possibly be their motivation to put us in a position where they would have to raise taxes? Money? I think not. Somethin to chew on. IMO...
Not mention, none of the above mentioned administrations had the excuse of *needing* to spend the money to dig ourselves out of the worst recession in 80 years...
Again, I'm not saying that the worst is over in this recession, but if it turns out to be, I think some people here (including myself), will have to admit that this administration did the right thing.
If you look around these forums, there was clear consensus a couple months ago that spending lots of money wasn't going to solve our financial crisis. If it did solve the crisis, I guess we were wrong...
That is the problem, IMO, they are not looking for the money, but the POWER. This is why I stated before that since most people will accept Obama as a smart man, then he knows that the way to raise more money is to reduce taxes. Since this is not being done there has to be something else behind what is being done, therefore I question his agenda.
As far as the first Bush admin starting this cycle of debt, you can view it that way if you choose, but history has showed us that after a war there is always a boom cycle. This is what happened to the First Bush admin. The war cost us great debt, as all wars do, then the boom that naturally follows was credited to clinton but caused by the war period of Bush.
Then came Bush 2 who had to twhart the comeback attempt of Iraq, similar to the German comeback that was not twharted, and the debt for such a war period is understandable. This period should be followed by another boom period. But then in comes Obama who is apparantely attempting to take control of the business who would produce that boom period naturally by the Capitalization process of supply and demand, but this can not happen when the process is controlled by the government, as evidenced by the slower recovery of the European countries from the war periods VS the normal US recovery periods.
That being said, I am not sure if we are really out of the war period yet. So there may be hope for the normal recovery process to work IF we do resist from becomming like the Socialist European countries with government controlling the producing capacities of the economy (and taking most of the profits).
What happened to "Mission Accomplished" back in 2003...I thought the war has been over for 6 years now...
There is always a rebuilding period to any war effort. Without that rebuilding the economy can not return and things will be only "third rate". This is why (one reason) that we are still there. Plus to hopefully develop an ally who will call upon US in time of attack (internal or external) so that the fragile "democracy" can develop strongly into one that will be considered a true ally in that area.
Plus the war effort is really not over. Look at Afghanastan and Pakistan.
There's obviously no way of knowing which way the economy is headed except in hindsight, so who knows if we've hit bottom and are seeing the first signs of a recovery, or if this is just a short-term fluctuation...but, here are some indications that we may have already hit bottom:
- 11 of the 12 districts in the Fed Beige Book are indicating that conditions have stabilized, improved or firmed. This to me is the biggest indicator that we've hit bottom and are starting to climb out of this thing.
- U.S. job losses are greatly slowing, with losses down from 700K per month to about 200K per month. The first derivative of jobless claims approaching zero is often a leading indicator of recovery;
- Stocks have hit a 1-year high, indicating increased optimism. So, if we're not recovering, at least some people think we are;
- The NAHB Housing Market index is at its highest point since nearly 2 years ago. Considering that the houing and manufacturing sectors have taken the brunt of this recession, that's a great sign;
- The European Union is seeing a growth surge, indicating that the worldwide recession is slowing down. Additionally, there's been some sell-off of the U.S dollar, indicating more confidence global currencies, and optimism of a global recovery.
Of course, any indicator can be argued (as I'm sure you will), but there's no doubt that there's more reason to believe we've hit bottom now than any time in the past 12-18 months.
Whether we have or not, who knows...
But, my original hypothetical remains -- if we do prove to be pulling out of this recession, do you give credit to the administration for what they did?
If you can, that cash advance was a brilliant move. If you can't, that cash advance was an idiotic move.
But having bases in a country is very different from just anywhere in a county that you want to, to fight the remants of the forces that brought you there. I will look forward to just having "bases" there. The war effort is against the "Axis of Evil" and not just one country. This one country is just one "front" of the war.
The full war effort could spread to several countries who would sponsor those that attacked the US. This is unpolitical but it could possibly spread into Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Lybia, and others that no one would really dare mention.
I'm pretty sure the German surrendered in May of 1945 and the Japanese surrendered in August or September 1945...I think most people would agree that was the end of WWII...
And, of course, the terrorists must have surrendered in May of 2003...otherwise, it seems weird we would have declared Mission Accomplished...
If the terrorists did indeed surrender, than what country is holding them, who is prosecuting them. The mission accomplished was only inferring the one front which under consideration, Iran and the president assisting the terrorists, not the war effort itself.
But, you're also not a bad investor just because you take a cash advance on a credit card. The question is whether you can use that cash to generate a greater return than the debt you are accruing from that leverage.
If you can, that cash advance was a brilliant move. If you can't, that cash advance was an idiotic move
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J Scott, this could be the one thing on which we agree in this particular thread. That's a big if. And if the market would have corrected itself without taking on all of this debt (and it would have if history and free market economics is any indication...and it is) that puts that right out the window, doesn't it? And are we really being intellectually honest with ourselves if we compare anything that's going on now with anything that Regean or either Bush did? I agree that much money was spent by all three, much of it on war, and some of it even necessary. But the numbers, even adjusted for inflation don't come anywhere close. That's where that argument falls to pieces, and also where the people making it like to change the subject. It isn't the same thing. Plain and simple. There are no "maybes and what-ifs" when dealing with numbers. It is what it is, and I'm sorry if that makes anyone uncomfortable. I get sick to death of hearing that comparison. Even if it were true (and it isn't) it still wouldn't detract from the evil and destruction that this man's irresponsible actions will rain down on this country. No disprespect by the way, I know these things get heated :)
He's as much of a puppet (if not more) as GWB was.
The fact that the economy is getting worse is not a mistake.
Soon enough we will be happy with any "Change" they throw at us, just because the economy will be THAT bad.
Nice Jim. Can't say I disagree. And that scares me.
During the speech that W gave on the aircraft carrier that day, in front of the "Mission Accomplished" banner, W said nothing about Iran, but instead claimed that this marked the end of major combat operations in Iraq and that the U.S. and its allies had prevailed.
Perhaps you need to watch it again to refresh your memory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFijzDyJnVE
Funny how 99% of the casualties of that war have died AFTER the President declared the war to be over...