Religious Question

Religious Question

J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

Tim asked in another thread that I start a new thread on this topic, and while I don't see much value in discussion religion on an Internet forum, I'll at least continue this discussion from the other thread with a religious question for Tim...

[Note that I've put this in the Political Talk section, as it's likely to be one of those similar divisive topics... :)

Also note that I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm doing my best to write this from a non-judgmental and purely inquisitive perspective. If you are insulted by religious questions, please feel free to stop reading now.]

Okay, here's my question for Tim (and anyone else that's interested in answering)...

There have been thousands of religions throughout history, and one of the things that many of them have in common is the belief that there is a supreme being that created and controls everything. Some religions believe there are lots of things supreme beings (Greeks believed in hundreds of Gods).

I don't want to debate whether there is a supreme being or not...I can understand why people feel the need to believe in something bigger than themselves...it gives a sense of purpose, hope, and direction.

What I want to better understand is why people believe in their particular god and their particular history of the universe as opposed to the other thousands of gods and other thousands of of stories of these gods?

For example, as someone who is not religious, hearing the story of the Bible, the story of the Book of Mormon, the story of the Koran, the stories of the Greeks and the Romans and their gods, the story of Scientology, etc, they all sound pretty much equally believable (or unbelievable, depending on your perspective).

Hearing about 72 virgins awaiting martyrs in heaven sounds no more or less far-fetched than hearing about the fiery pits of hell. And it's all about the same as hearing about the comet Hale-Bopp coming to take Heaven's Gate believers away to the stars.

As far as I can tell, there's no evidence that suggests the Roman God of the Sun is any more or less real that than the Judeo-Christian God, and I'm quite certain that a few thousand years ago, the belief in the Sun God was just as fervent as today's belief in a Christian God. And they had just as much evidence back then that a god (or more than one) exists as we do today.

So, if you're religious, why do you believe your religion has the correct interpretation of historical events and the correct interpretation of the supreme being versus the other thousands of religions and cults throughout history?

I've heard people say, "I have no proof, it's just my belief."

While that's absolutely fine, I don't understand how that person can ever say that another religion "has it wrong." They would have to admit that maybe the Greeks were right; maybe the Muslims are right; maybe the Scientologists are right; and that quantitatively (i.e., taking your beliefs out of it), there's JUST AS MUCH CHANCE that other religions are right as yours is.

So, I guess my question boils down to:

What makes you believe that your religious belief system "holds more water" than any others, outside of the fact that yours may (or may not) have more followers and/or a better propaganda system?

And, if on the off chance, your response is, "It's just my belief, my faith, and that's all there is to it," then my follow-up question is:

Is there any other area of your life (besides religion) where you have an unflappable belief in something, and where you'd throw out all evidence and rationale in lieu of your faith and belief.

Again, not trying to offend...just genuinely curious...

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Real Estate Investor · East Aurora, NY · Member since 2009 · 70 posts · 22 votes
17y

Some recommended reading - "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist"
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252600154&sr=1-1

The authors develop a persuasive case starting with how the Big Bang makes the case for a creator, why monotheism is the only logical theistic belief and how the New Testament can be verified.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jesse R:

    Everytime this topic is brought up, whether in a conversation at a party or an online "political forum", I've yet to see a positive outcome.

    If that's your experience, it would make sense that you just stop reading this thread. There's no reason to waste your time if you aren't getting anything out of it...

    Originally posted by Jesse R:

    You're looking for data to prove what?...How can you come up with a correct answer when your sample group is biased?


    I'm not looking for data to prove anything and I'm not looking for a specific answer...

    I'm looking for some information (personal viewpoints) to advance my understanding of something I can't currently relate to (faith in a specific religion).

    It's called learning, and it's something I like to do on occasion...

  • Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes
    17y

    Dont be to quick to discount another's vewpoint, even though it comes from something that you do not believe or that you believe is just wrong, Jesse.

    It is often very hard for these people to come to an understanding of "God" and "Religion" as we believe it to be. I am thankful that they are asking questions, which they one day may recieve a response to that will open thier eyes so that they do understand that anything of "faith" can be only understood from a faith aspect and can not be understood from any logical or factual position.

    With that being said I do find it interesting that most of the time those trying to relate to religion discount its aspects as not logical or factual when everything points to something "higher" or something that is yet not "understood".

    To those that dont choose to believe in a "God" then the "search for understanding" (knowledge) becomes their God (so to speak) and everything must fall into a logical order that we can discover (or come to an understanding of) by the rules of discovery that we currently use or will come to understand by future discoveries, so that they can understand or accept a certain religious belief.

    Trying to define the "illogical" by logical terms, defies the logic of understanding because the illogical does not abide by logical ideas. Therefore to attempt to relate to any religion by any logical terms is not logical and defies the logic behind the original stated purpose of understanding or learning.

    Knowledge of something that can only be understood by faith can not be understood by logic. But false beliefs can be proven as false by logic. So is it not logical that those who believe would think that someone comming from a logical standpoint is only trying to disprove the personal beliefs presented to them?

    Faith opens many more doors than only pure logic does. But faith does not prevent someone from using logic to understand the finite rules of something made by something infinite in origin.

    Therefore the "logical" pursuit of the "illogical" (religion) is illogical itself.

  • Real Estate Investor · Wyoming, MI · Member since 2008 · 195 posts · 10 votes
    17y

    good open minded thoughts but the problem we're all facing is that
    if you have heard the word of christ and reject Jesus, you are condemned to hell forever with NO chance of being forgiven. That sin if UN-Forgivable.

    Look at how many people on earth who will end up there.

    (of course, Islam says everybody who believes in the bible will end up with the same fate so...pick your poison)

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jason Trepins:
    (of course, Islam says everybody who believes in the bible will end up with the same fate so...pick your poison)


    Islam also doesn't have the "blessed assurance", in other words - the for sure, 100%, no questions asked, path to salvation. Like a liberal politician or an abusive boyfriend, no matter what a person gives it can never be enough.
  • Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2008 · 62 posts · 14 votes
    17y

    I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet, but since this site is called BiggerPockets, what does the group think about Matthew 19:24 ("It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God")?

  • OR · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 845 votes
    17y

    [[[........ and every other belief system on the planet are all on completely equal footing...and that there is no argument that any of them makes more (or less) sense than any other.....]]]]]

    If you want a universal generalization, I suppose that would do. And actually, I don't think any religion makes much sense if it doesn't happen to be your own.

    However, religion is individual belief, so you can't really generalize about individuals. To each person, a different religion speaks, and to them, that is the one that makes sense, and that is the one that enriches their life.

    Agaain, my suggestion: try a few different religions and see if you can find the one that speaks to you.

    PS: It's my understanding that "the eye of the needle" was a narrow gate into the city, not literally a sewing needle. And hey, you Christians.. ..aren't all things possible with God? So if God wants a camel to pass through a sewing needle, no problem doing it.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by P NW:

    Agaain, my suggestion: try a few different religions and see if you can find the one that speaks to you.


    Already done that, and I'm actually 100% comfortable in my current belief system...

    I was just curious what specifically made others comfortable in theirs, which is why I started this thread...

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eric Limbeck:
    I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet, but since this site is called BiggerPockets, what does the group think about Matthew 19:24 ("It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God")?


    I have thought about that Eric - as many Old Testament saints had significant wealth and God is the owner of all "wealth". Look closer at the attitude of the "rich" man. He was a man who already had everything "figured out" and already knew that he knew and was open to no new ideas. Remember that this rich man was very proud of all the badges of virtuous behavior he had achieved. He was very proud. He also didn't have the faith to accept the fact that God could have restored his wealth much soon after, as He did to Job. I think it was a pride and faith issue this guy had. He did the actions but had a core of pride and no faith.

    As Jason said, the "eye of the needle" also refers to a gate where a camel had to stoop low. Stooping low is akin to taking on a very humble position. A person needs humility to accept salvation. They have to admit that they don't have and are not the answers and that at any moment God can remove their wealth from them. That attitude serves you well in investing. It keeps you humble, keeps you crossing your t's and dotting your i's. It keeps you from getting cocky about 1 investing technique that just happens to be working right now.

    Tim

  • Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jason Trepins:
    good open minded thoughts but the problem we're all facing is that
    if you have heard the word of christ and reject Jesus, you are condemned to hell forever with NO chance of being forgiven. That sin if UN-Forgivable.

    Look at how many people on earth who will end up there.

    (of course, Islam says everybody who believes in the bible will end up with the same fate so...pick your poison)

    Actually, Jesus will forgive anyone and everyone who asks for it and believes in him. There is no sin that is unforgivable while we are still in this human form.
    I believe what you are referring to is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (not Jesus). And there is a question as to wheather or not that sincould be committed today since (in context) it was speaking directly of the power by which the miracle done by Jesus was done. Since Jesus is not here today, doing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, there would be no possibility of someone who witnessed the miracle, which was described as obvious to all who witnessed it as comming from God, to turn around and claim that the power to do the miracle came from the Devil.

  • Real Estate Investor · Wyoming, MI · Member since 2008 · 195 posts · 10 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by jawsette:
    Originally posted by Jason Trepins:
    good open minded thoughts but the problem we're all facing is that
    if you have heard the word of christ and reject Jesus, you are condemned to hell forever with NO chance of being forgiven. That sin if UN-Forgivable.

    Look at how many people on earth who will end up there.

    (of course, Islam says everybody who believes in the bible will end up with the same fate so...pick your poison)



    Actually, Jesus will forgive anyone and everyone who asks for it and believes in him. There is no sin that is unforgivable while we are still in this human form.
    I believe what you are referring to is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (not Jesus). And there is a question as to wheather or not that sincould be committed today since (in context) it was speaking directly of the power by which the miracle done by Jesus was done. Since Jesus is not here today, doing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, there would be no possibility of someone who witnessed the miracle, which was described as obvious to all who witnessed it as comming from God, to turn around and claim that the power to do the miracle came from the Devil.





    either way..the intent of my post was that every club(religion) says you BETTER join our club cuz you join any other club then you will burn in a worse hell than their hell.

    so choose wisely

  • Investor · Morgantown, WV · Member since 2008 · 207 posts · 33 votes
    17y

    From what I understand, Judaism is unique in that it is the first religion to embrace a monotheistic God. All other religions up until Judaism embraced polytheism or the worship of many Gods.
    Judaism was also unique in that God related directly to man by creating man, Chosing him, redeeming him, delivering him from bondage through redemption out of Egypt and giving man laws to live by and rules for worshiping the one true God Yahweh.
    The uniqueness of Judaism and Christianity is that it is what God does to reveal Himself to mankind. He chooses us, save us, forms us and calls us into a true relationship with Himself.
    Religion is more man's understanding of God and deals with Man's attempt to bridge the gap of guilt or mystery about God. I think truth occurs when God reveals Himself to Man through past, present and future interventions. The interpretaion of this is where things get unclear. Christians believe that God has fully revealed himself and intervended completely in Human History throught the birth, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, revealing the One True God.
    In summary, religion is man's interpretaion and way of relating to God. Relationship and revelation is when God reveals Himself and the true nature of his Character to Mankind. Christians believe he has accomplished this through his son Jesus Christ.
    I would reccommend a book by Lee Stroebel- the Case for Christ- ( I believe)

  • OR · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 845 votes
    17y

    [[[[....... every club(religion) says you BETTER join our club cuz you join any other club then you will burn in a worse hell than their hell.....]]]]]

    Stictly speaking: not true. There are many religions that don't have any concept of hell or punishment in the afterlife.

    If you are an American Plains Amerind, the very worst that can happen to you is to carry disfigurement done to you in battle into the afterlife. You don't go anyplace any different than anybody else.

    All Navajo go to the dancehall of the dead. Only one option, unless an evil person makes the voluntary choice to remain on earth as an evil spirit (and there is no punishment involved for him)

    If you are in any of the religions that believe in reincanation, there is no hell of any sort. You just keep going back and living your life over again, trying to reach enlightenment.

    If anyone still practices Greek or Roman mythology, there was an underworld, but it wasn't a place of torment, unless one of the gods singled you out because you'd ticked them off.

    I've yet to hear of any animist religion that has any concept of hell or afterlife punishment.

    Even satanists don't seem to belive in afterlife torment. They certainly don't have any fear of hellfire. As long as you don't use Hollywood as your only source of information about Satanists, they don't threaten anybody, or expect their arch angel to punish their enemies for not joining their religion.

    Does Islam have an inferno type hell? They seem to believe in killing anyone who doesn't believe as they do, but do they believe they are sending them to hell, or simply getting rid of them? They are considered to be on the Judeo-Christian axis, so I suppose they have a hell. You just never hear them speak of it. (They can keep their version of heaven, How bloody dull would that be?)

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by P NW:
    They are considered to be on the Judeo-Christian axis, so I suppose they have a hell.


    Actually, Jews generally don't believe in hell. In fact, they don't much given any consideration to the afterlife at all...instead, they focus on the living world...
  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Actually, Jews generally don't believe in hell. In fact, they don't much given any consideration to the afterlife at all...instead, they focus on the living world...


    Yes they do but it is referred to as the pit or sheol. The difference is it isn't referred to as a place of torment, it's a place of death and it distinctly separate from Heaven thus separate from God. Christianity portrays hell as a place of torment because the salvation Christ offers is eternal life rather than death. Your selection of eternal death over eternal life and it's resulting separation from God is the torment.
  • Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes
    16y

    Did you happen to notice the American Iranian muslum protesters and their signs today at the UN when the Iranian president was speaking?

    That alone should show you what the "islam" viewpoints of hell are!!!!!!!

  • Asheville, NC · Member since 2008 · 107 posts · 10 votes
    16y

    Religious preference boils down to culture and location in the world.

  • Inspector · Alsip, IL · Member since 2008 · 361 posts · 75 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Donny Random:
    Religious preference boils down to culture and location in the world.


    I find that to be true. Along with someone's previous post that religion is nothing more than humankinds' interpretation of its relationship with its Creator. I've made a study of many religions. For fun. Because I'm a nerd :mrgreen: I've found that once you get past all of the window dressing, even most polytheistic religions believe in the concept of one creative force. To them, it's un-nameable, unapproachable, and impossible to have a relationship with, strictly speaking. There's really no point of contact from a human perspective because the Creator, to whomever is trying to experience it, has nothing in common with us (from a strictly human perspective). Most believe It to be everywhere and in everything (Christians too). God to most Christians (I think) isn't some old guy up in the sky. That would be ridiculous. It's something much, much more. We can't even comprehend with our brains the concept of "infinite" Intellectually yes, but not with any degree of understanding.
    So back to polytheism in many cultures, they understood their many gods as simply understandable reflections of certain aspects of the One. And the gods were often human-ish in appearance so that they could better relate to them. But it all goes back to the One if you really look at it. God himself is more of an abstract concept than anything. Just our attempt to relate. The perfect love that comes through God into a person's life, if they allow it to, is not. That's something tangible (in a sense) and something we can all understand.
  • Rental Property Investor · Twin Cities, MN · Member since 2008 · 94 posts · 10 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Joseph Ziolkowski:
    Originally posted by Donny Random:
    Religious preference boils down to culture and location in the world.


    I find that to be true. Along with someone's previous post that religion is nothing more than humankinds' interpretation of its relationship with its Creator. I've made a study of many religions. For fun. Because I'm a nerd :mrgreen: I've found that once you get past all of the window dressing, even most polytheistic religions believe in the concept of one creative force. To them, it's un-nameable, unapproachable, and impossible to have a relationship with, strictly speaking. There's really no point of contact from a human perspective because the Creator, to whomever is trying to experience it, has nothing in common with us (from a strictly human perspective). Most believe It to be everywhere and in everything (Christians too). God to most Christians (I think) isn't some old guy up in the sky. That would be ridiculous. It's something much, much more. We can't even comprehend with our brains the concept of "infinite" Intellectually yes, but not with any degree of understanding.
    So back to polytheism in many cultures, they understood their many gods as simply understandable reflections of certain aspects of the One. And the gods were often human-ish in appearance so that they could better relate to them. But it all goes back to the One if you really look at it. God himself is more of an abstract concept than anything. Just our attempt to relate. The perfect love that comes through God into a person's life, if they allow it to, is not. That's something tangible (in a sense) and something we can all understand.

    Well articulated...

    This really would make one wonder if the man of Jesus was a crazy freak(like a Koresh/Manson type), or indeed was who he said he was, God incarnated into human form to relate personally with humans. With what was written about him, there really is no in between.

    I suppose ones view of the accuracy/historical validity of the New Testament is what would be the answer of if you believe Jesus is God incarnated into man or not.

    I am not aware of other religions that talk about this kind of direct human interaction other than Christianity.

  • Real Estate Investor · Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2009 · 130 posts · 4 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Mr_Investor:
    Yes there are different religions believing in different aspects but for me the truth always lies in the Bible. Whenever I get confused I look to the Bible for guidance.



    Various religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism) look to different parts of the bible and pick and choose what they believe. Even various sects of Christianity like Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Catholic selectively ignore certain books of the bible (that is what they use to create their own internal doctrine, as approved by the church authorities and ultimately what they preach as okay and not okay).

    I have no problem with people admitting that they pick and choose their belief system, isn't that what everyone does? But if you question some of the validity of the teachings in the Bible, you have to question all of it. How about selling your daughter into slavery being okay? (Exodus 21:7) Or it being a sin to boil a baby goat in it's mother's milk? (Exodus 34:26)

    I know those may seem extreme or even silly, but why is it that we are taking these extreme and silly things to be the infallible word of a Deity?

  • Real Estate Investor · Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2009 · 130 posts · 4 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by jawsette:
    There is no sin that is unforgivable while we are still in this human form.


    Why is it that the rules only apply while we are alive on the earth? So the minute that you are dead (although time is a concept only known by the living) or shortly thereafter you will be judged by God. If at that point you (as an Atheist, Muslim, Environmentalist, etc) realize that you have been wrong your entire living life. And then say, ohh my God (no offense) I can't believe it, well I guess I was wrong because here it is staring me in the face (well not face, soul I guess because your face is physical entity, or was). I apologize to you Lord, for being such an unbelieving a-hole (sincerely) it won't matter?

    It seems very convenient that the organizations that are supported by philanthropy from their flocks can only benefit from their flock in the physical world. And that the rules only apply during the period of time that they will actually benefit. It also seems convenient that most of these religious doctrines have various clauses that specifically declare it a sin to either question or test their belief system. "Do not test the Lord your God" for one.

    Am I joining or religion or signing a real-estate contract here? (poor attempt at a RE joke).

  • Real Estate Investor · Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2009 · 130 posts · 4 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Actually, Jews generally don't believe in hell. In fact, they don't much given any consideration to the afterlife at all...instead, they focus on the living world...


    Yes they do but it is referred to as the pit or sheol. The difference is it isn't referred to as a place of torment, it's a place of death and it distinctly separate from Heaven thus separate from God. Christianity portrays hell as a place of torment because the salvation Christ offers is eternal life rather than death. Your selection of eternal death over eternal life and it's resulting separation from God is the torment.


    Most Christians believe in the fire and brimstone pitchfork Satan Hell, thank John Milton and Paradise Lost for those images! Well some of them.

    When it reality the only Biblical Hell is literally "separation from God".

    But what most people don't realize is that to be part of God is to lose your individuality and to become one. People think of heaven as this happy place where you see all your friends, yada yada but that is only a reaction to the fiery evil Hell image that has been created. In reality you don't know your friends in Heaven because you are your friends. It is a very Buddhist principle when you think about it.

    The social and political advantage of a culture that de-values individuality is a large group of sheeple that you can lead to do pretty much anything you want. Religion has been used as a tool of war, politics, etc historically for almost forever. God told me to kill the infidels. God bless America for pete's sake! Got to rally the peasants some how!

    Last one was a little harsh, I apologize for getting slap-happy, I need to go to sleep!

  • Real Estate Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2008 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    16y

    This thread was started to see why people believe what they believe and why thats possibly better than another belief. I guess going along the lines of Shane M, if you believe in Christ...you believe in Christ. I feel that all these different sects are out of convenience to a lifestyle a group of people want to lead. Sex before marraige...well, that wont work with this club...so lets start this one. If you believe, then the rules should apply, not what you feel should apply.

    I was raised Catholic, it never made sense to me. Why have confession? If you are blindly following something you cant truly grasp, you chose that faith. If you are having to go to confession every week, then clearly you are not leading your life in the manner your holy being would see fit anyways. I find it ridiculous that you can cheat on your wife, beat your child etc. applogize on sunday and continue leading your fake, have to be seen here so the rest of the tee ball moms and dads will accept me in their circles.

    I applaude people that truly believe in leading a christian life...ONLY, if its whole heartedly and complete. But to drag you children to mass because its what the rest of the soccer moms do isnt faith, its social acceptance.

    AND..if you believe that thoroughly of Isnt GOD omniscient, didnt he create time? he is outside it, he created everything in it, and can see from the beginning to the end. Does that mean you have Zero control over what you are doing because everything is pre determined? Is it a causal deternminism, affected by your previous action?

    Tell you what..believe in yourself first. See what kind of wonders that will do for you. Enjoy your time here, stop worrying about what will happen after. What if nothing happens? Live your life as a good person and if there is an after life, Im willing to bet that will be enough to get you in.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by John Strobel:

    Tell you what..believe in yourself first. See what kind of wonders that will do for you. Enjoy your time here, stop worrying about what will happen after. What if nothing happens? Live your life as a good person and if there is an after life, Im willing to bet that will be enough to get you in.


    Amen to that. :)
  • Real Estate Investor · Wyoming, MI · Member since 2008 · 195 posts · 10 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by John Strobel:
    Live your life as a good person and if there is an after life, Im willing to bet that will be enough to get you in.

    what if you're WRONG :crazed:

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Jason Trepins:

    what if you're WRONG :crazed:


    The same thing as if you're wrong...that's the interesting thing about religion, as soon as you affiliate yourself with one of them, you are denouncing thousands of others...

    Statistically, most people will be wrong, no matter how confident they might be that they're right...

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