Religious Question

Religious Question

J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

Tim asked in another thread that I start a new thread on this topic, and while I don't see much value in discussion religion on an Internet forum, I'll at least continue this discussion from the other thread with a religious question for Tim...

[Note that I've put this in the Political Talk section, as it's likely to be one of those similar divisive topics... :)

Also note that I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm doing my best to write this from a non-judgmental and purely inquisitive perspective. If you are insulted by religious questions, please feel free to stop reading now.]

Okay, here's my question for Tim (and anyone else that's interested in answering)...

There have been thousands of religions throughout history, and one of the things that many of them have in common is the belief that there is a supreme being that created and controls everything. Some religions believe there are lots of things supreme beings (Greeks believed in hundreds of Gods).

I don't want to debate whether there is a supreme being or not...I can understand why people feel the need to believe in something bigger than themselves...it gives a sense of purpose, hope, and direction.

What I want to better understand is why people believe in their particular god and their particular history of the universe as opposed to the other thousands of gods and other thousands of of stories of these gods?

For example, as someone who is not religious, hearing the story of the Bible, the story of the Book of Mormon, the story of the Koran, the stories of the Greeks and the Romans and their gods, the story of Scientology, etc, they all sound pretty much equally believable (or unbelievable, depending on your perspective).

Hearing about 72 virgins awaiting martyrs in heaven sounds no more or less far-fetched than hearing about the fiery pits of hell. And it's all about the same as hearing about the comet Hale-Bopp coming to take Heaven's Gate believers away to the stars.

As far as I can tell, there's no evidence that suggests the Roman God of the Sun is any more or less real that than the Judeo-Christian God, and I'm quite certain that a few thousand years ago, the belief in the Sun God was just as fervent as today's belief in a Christian God. And they had just as much evidence back then that a god (or more than one) exists as we do today.

So, if you're religious, why do you believe your religion has the correct interpretation of historical events and the correct interpretation of the supreme being versus the other thousands of religions and cults throughout history?

I've heard people say, "I have no proof, it's just my belief."

While that's absolutely fine, I don't understand how that person can ever say that another religion "has it wrong." They would have to admit that maybe the Greeks were right; maybe the Muslims are right; maybe the Scientologists are right; and that quantitatively (i.e., taking your beliefs out of it), there's JUST AS MUCH CHANCE that other religions are right as yours is.

So, I guess my question boils down to:

What makes you believe that your religious belief system "holds more water" than any others, outside of the fact that yours may (or may not) have more followers and/or a better propaganda system?

And, if on the off chance, your response is, "It's just my belief, my faith, and that's all there is to it," then my follow-up question is:

Is there any other area of your life (besides religion) where you have an unflappable belief in something, and where you'd throw out all evidence and rationale in lieu of your faith and belief.

Again, not trying to offend...just genuinely curious...

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Real Estate Investor · East Aurora, NY · Member since 2009 · 70 posts · 22 votes
17y

Some recommended reading - "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist"
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252600154&sr=1-1

The authors develop a persuasive case starting with how the Big Bang makes the case for a creator, why monotheism is the only logical theistic belief and how the New Testament can be verified.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Why Christianity? Why is the story of Jesus more believable than the stories posed by the thousands of other religions that have previously and do currently embrace the human race?


    Simple. It's more than the story of Jesus alone. It starts from the story of original sin and continues for thousands of years and leads to the narrative of the story of Jesus, which was distinctly prophesied over 100 times by various people who had no contact with each other geographically or in eras of time. No other religion has that. Buddhism, Scientology, Islam, and yes - many of the beliefs of Mormonism all started from one man who wrote a book and got others to believe what he wrote.

    Also, no other religion has their leader coming here specifically to die for those in the faith and those not in it, in the hopes that they might join the faith.

    Once you accept the possibility that it may be truth and begin a full weighing of it, you will inevitably lead to a logical conclusion that the evidence weighs profoundly in favor of it. I suggest you read some of the early papers of the atheist CS Lewis and read the progression of his beliefs over time. If you refuse to accept even the possibility that it is true however, and close your mind there is little anyone can do. It will be your fanatical faith based devotion to atheism as a more hard core fundamentalist than any person of faith who has posted here.

  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    J Scott, you want to know "Why Christianity". Couldn't you just as well have asked "Why Islam?", "Why Buddism?", "Why Hinduism?", "Why Scientology?", etc....

    It all comes down to CHOICE. The only thing we are given at birth is our mother and father. After that, it is pretty much all a matter of choices. We can even chose to change our name. We chose what to wear, what to eat, whom to marry, what to drive, etc.... Some decisions are very basic, like beef or chicken for dinner or what shirt to wear. Then some decisions have a larger impact, such as what major in college, who to marry or to have children. We have a myriad of choices of what investments to make. Then there are the eternal decisions we make. And since we cannot travel beyond this life to explore and come back to make a decision, we have to go with what might be considered 'circumstantial' evidence. People who have died and were brought back within seconds or a few minutes have reported seeing something 'on the other side.' Other people have reported seeing spiritual beings during the course of their life, how much is true is any one's guess.

    But if you want to know Why Christianity for me, I would say it is the sum total of my studies, my teachings, my life's experiences. I do not want to attack anyone else's beliefs, but I find gaping holes in the fundamental's in most religions. I even find gaping holes in some denominations of Christian Religions. Let me give a few simple examples. Mormon's teach that drinking anything with caffeine is wrong. Yet the Bible says that it is NOT what goes into a man that causes him to sin, but what comes out of a man, ie. his actions. Catholics believe it is ok to pray to dead saints and others. Yet Jesus states very clearly in the Bible that you are to pray to NO ONE but God. Baptist's believe that once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation but the Bible clearly states that God can erase your name from the Lamb's book of life. The faith I was brought up in states that drinking alcoholic beverages is a sin yet Jesus turned water into Wine. I don't think Jesus would make an item of sin.

    The problem with God's plan is that man keeps getting involved for his own end and own benefit. Every religion on earth is MAN MADE.

    Jesus being born, walking the earth, being crucified and then raising from the dead three days later is extremely well documented, both in religious and secular writing. The Roman Historian, Josephus, writes very clearly of these events. His coming was well documented in prophesitical writings that are verifiably thousands of years older than his birth. No other so called religious leader, whether Mohammed, Buddah, or even Joe Smith, has as much irrefutable evidence as to their deity than Jesus Christ.

    Why Christianity? It's my choice.

  • Real Estate Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2009 · 660 posts · 244 votes
    17y

    this would explain LeBron James .....

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y

    Tim, Mike,

    Thank you for your responses...again, I'm not looking to argue or to judge, I'm just honestly curious...

    To answer a couple of your comments/questions...

    Mike -

    As I said in my post, I called out Christianity because it seemed like most of the people who have responded here are Christians. I certainly have the exact same questions about every other religion, but thought that making it specific to the people who had responded would help direct my question.

    I didn't mean to single out any one religion, by any means.

    Tim -

    First, don't make assumptions about my beliefs. I'm certainly not fundamentalist in any of my beliefs about god. And, I don't consider myself an atheist. In fact, don't know what to consider myself.

    Just like I would say I have no belief in unicorns (not using that example to be derogatory, just the first to come to mind), I also wouldn't say that they definitely don't exist. I assume they don't unless/until I have evidence, but I would never assert that they don't because you can't prove a negative.

    Likewise with my lack of belief in a god. I would never assert that a god (or more than one) doesn't exist...I just don't believe that one does because I've never seen any evidence that I consider convincing.

    If I ever see any convincing evidence (to me) of a god (or a unicorn), I would have no trouble revising my beliefs.

    Does that make me an atheist? An agnostic? I don't know...feel free to apply whatever label you like...

    Second, I appreciate your answering my question about "why Christianity" versus any other religion. I'm not familiar with any religions enough to determine which are the most consistent and logical, but it makes sense that you'd go with something that you feel is more consistent than any of the others.

    As for me, I just can't bring myself to search out a religious truth. \

    The hard-core Muslims I know are just as convinced that they are "right" as the hard-core Jews are convinced that they are right and are just as convinced as the hard-core Christians, and Mormons, etc.

    To each of them, their story makes just as much sense as Christianity makes to you.

    Personally, the story that makes the most sense to me is that all religions were invented by man. I am as convinced about this as you are about the story of Christianity.

    I know that you honestly believe 100% that your conviction is correct; I too believe 100% that my conviction is correct. It's my belief based on what I've seen, heard, and experienced.

    And I can't just change my beliefs any more than you can just change yours.

    Not that either of us needs to... :)

    Again though, thanks for the responses guys...I appreciate the insight!

  • Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes
    17y

    If you do not search out something, you will not usually find it. Therefore it is understandable why you do not believe in anything that you can not see. But what is not understandable is why you ask these questions claiming

    You seem to be searching for the truth, or to prove the "truth" a lie by finding an arguement not to accept it. This is fine, but to say you are not searching, then ask searching questions seems to be contradicatory in and of itself.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by jawsette:
    Originally posted by jscott:
    I'm not looking to argue or to judge, I'm just honestly curious...


    This is fine, but to say you are not searching, then ask searching questions seems to be contradicatory in and of itself.


    I never said I wasn't looking for information...

    What I said (see above, as quoted in your post) was that I wasn't looking to argue or judge.

    Neither of which I've been doing here, I don't think...

  • Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes
    17y

    That was my point. Although we sometimes stumble on things, most things are found when looking or searching for them.

    I am also not looking to argue, but to honestly answer your questions, which I hope will lead you to the answer you are looking or searching for. And in the process, maybe I can help you understand that somethings just can not be proven absolutely, or seen, or even experienced at our state of "understanding" so we can only believe them or not.

    I hope that I can choose my words wisely.

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by jawsette:
    You seem to be searching for the truth, or to prove the "truth" a lie by finding an arguement not to accept it.


    That is the closed minded fundamentalism I referred to earlier - when you have the end goal in mind to prove something as you seek for "truth" to support what you already believe or "truth" to attack what you already disbelieve. I never said it was wrong, but I won't let anyone accuse me of what they are guilty of doing. Your soul is not the Manhattan Project. It deserves at least the same level of objective analysis that you apply to your real estate portfolio. I would like to hope that people value their soul more than a rental property.
  • Real Estate Investor · East Aurora, NY · Member since 2009 · 70 posts · 22 votes
    17y

    Some recommended reading - "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist"
    http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252600154&sr=1-1

    The authors develop a persuasive case starting with how the Big Bang makes the case for a creator, why monotheism is the only logical theistic belief and how the New Testament can be verified.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    when you have the end goal in mind to prove something as you seek for "truth" to support what you already believe or "truth" to attack what you already disbelieve.

    First, I've gone out of my way not to be attacking towards anyone on this thread. I'm made a point not to argue with anyone's beliefs. I was trying to get an understanding of something that had come up in other threads...so I posed a question...


    I never said it was wrong, but I won't let anyone accuse me of what they are guilty of doing.

    What accusations have I made? Why do you feel attacked here? What have I said that makes you feel attacked?

    If I've said something attacking, I apologize...


    It deserves at least the same level of objective analysis that you apply to your real estate portfolio.


    And THAT was the purpose of this thread. I'm trying to get an objective point of view on why people have chosen their specific religion. To make an objective analysis (as you've suggested), I need some objective data.

    That was all I've been asking for in this thread...

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    First, I've gone out of my way not to be attacking towards anyone on this thread. I'm made a point not to argue with anyone's beliefs. I was trying to get an understanding of something that had come up in other threads...so I posed a question...


    Forgive my dubiousness but when I see someone pose a question then suggest to people what they're answer should be, I have to question their motives. When countering our responses to your question you have suggested at least twice that we just say in one form or another, "I don't know, it's just my belief". It really makes one wonder if you wanted a true answer at all or were looking for something to confirm what you already believe about people who ascribe to a religion.
  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    17y

    Mike M- Just a couple items. Mormons are very trusting people, raised that way. They are subject to being scammed easily, and therefore "sheep in wolves clothing" are able to take advantage of them and others. There are black sheep in all faiths.
    Second- Mormons are taught to be self reliant and self sufficient as a people. This might be why they are appearing to be after money. They are taught to be prepared in every way, food, water 6 months expenses and to try and be free of debt and own home free and clear. All of those teachings would be beneficial to anyone, imo. Rich.

  • Real Estate Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2008 · 456 posts · 42 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Ted Harris:


    That's kind of my theory, lol!
    This is a great thread! And much more civil than I expected. I believe in God but I don't believe in religion because religion is man made. Part of my family was Quakers, another part Baptist and I was married for years to a Catholic. I don't see a lot of value in it from my own personal perspective (from the ritualistic side, not the belief or worship side) I've studied a good bit about religion and sociology and have some sort of self developed theory through seeing so many similarities throughout the religions of the world that perhaps all of these entities are in fact the same "God" but with different interpretations and rituals for celebrating HIM/HER/THEM.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    When countering our responses to your question you have suggested at least twice that we just say in one form or another, "I don't know, it's just my belief". It really makes one wonder if you wanted a true answer at all or were looking for something to confirm what you already believe about people who ascribe to a religion.


    I only suggested that because I've gotten a number of answers that were along the lines of "If you just read the Bible and open your mind, you'll believe too..."

    I grew up in a semi-religious household, I attended Sunday-school for many years, and I've read much of the Bible; but I still don't believe. So, when someone implies that the truth of the Bible is pretty-much obvious, I just can't relate. It would be like me saying to them, "If you just look at the scientific data and open up your mind, you'll believe in evolution too..." What may seem obvious to one may not at all seem obvious to another.

    So, saying something like that, in my mind that equates to "just believing." Hence my comment.

    Both you (Tim) and Rich answered my question about what evidence do you have that your religion is more likely to be correct than the other (Rich said he saw physical/geological evidence that was consistent with his beliefs and Tim said the Bible was more consistent than any other religious texts).

    I very much appreciated these answers (and I stated so), because they answered the question I was interested in. The rest of the responses didn't really shed any insight for me (not that they weren't appreciated).

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Karen Parker:
    I believe in God but I don't believe in religion because religion is man made.

    Thanks for the response Karen!

    This I can completely understand, based on my experience. While I don't necessarily believe in God, I can definitely understand why some people do. As Voltaire said, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

    Which is why I would never argue with someone about the existence of a god(s). There's just no good evidence, and it's impossible to prove a negative. So, it's a futile argument.

    That's why my question was specifically geared towards why people believe in "religion" and not why people believe in "God." In my mind (and as you pointed out), the two can be viewed completely separately.

    But, what I'm finding out from this thread is that many people who are religious can't (or just don't want to) separate the two. People obviously feel like I'm questioning the evidence for God in this thread, but I most certainly am not. I'm questioning the evidence for religion.

    Regardless, the info everyone has provided here has offered some insight for me...

    So thanks to everyone again!

  • Real Estate Investor · Wyoming, MI · Member since 2008 · 195 posts · 10 votes
    17y

    one 'branch' of my conclusions after years of research is that it is far Easier to cope with everything..when you believe in god.

    I hope to conclude someday that there is high probability that the lights just don't go out when you die. But it's going to take more than 'just have faith'

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    Fair enough. My "science" has always been the written word so it makes sense that this is where I focus my critical analysis, even subconsciously.

  • Real Estate Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2008 · 456 posts · 42 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jason Trepins:
    one 'branch' of my conclusions after years of research is that it is far Easier to cope with everything..when you believe in god.

    I hope to conclude someday that there is high probability that the lights just don't go out when you die. But it's going to take more than 'just have faith'


    I feel there's already plenty of evidence if you care to look, both scientific as well as physical. Like everything else, UFOs, Big Foot, etc etc. it depends on how rooted your mind is in the belief system you have and how far it is willing to stretch. Its sort of like listening to the media. Part is true and part is fiction. You somewhat have to sort through the BS to get the few real facts because the claimant, of course, is always slanted toward their own views. For example, we know Jesus Christ was here on this earth. We have physical evidence to prove this. Whether you want to believe that it is in fact evidence or even if you do, was He in fact the Son of God? That's left up to the individual to believe or not believe. This may be a strange way of interpreting things but Anne Rice wrote a book called "Queen of the Damned". In this book, all the vampires were linked to one greater being through which they existed in reality as one and without whom they would not. I think God is something sort of like that. A greater being through which we are all linked by mind, spirit, energy or the like, and are one. The power through which our minds create reality through thought, heals through prayer and creates miracles such as microchips and biogenetic engineering.
  • Real Estate Investor · Wyoming, MI · Member since 2008 · 195 posts · 10 votes
    17y

    it's like i said..i cannot rule out that there is something greater than us.
    But all these man made texts, the ones once accepted but no longer....and the ones currently accepted, do not describe that 'something greater'
    I can just point to the holy book of the kuran that says jesus was a prophet and not the son of god. Muhammad was alive aLOT closer to jesus's time than myself, mabye he knows something

  • Real Estate Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2008 · 456 posts · 42 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jason Trepins:
    it's like i said..i cannot rule out that there is something greater than us.
    But all these man made texts, the ones once accepted but no longer....and the ones currently accepted, do not describe that 'something greater'
    I can just point to the holy book of the kuran that says jesus was a prophet and not the son of god. Muhammad was alive aLOT closer to jesus's time than myself, mabye he knows something


    There are a number of books out presently that point to scientific evidence to a greater entity being responsible for creationism. Again, it depends if you want to open your mind to this line off thought or dismiss it. Having as strong of a background in the sciences as I do, I tend to look for hard physical evidence to support my "spiritual" belief systems. Needless to say it has been through some major changes since I was child going to Sunday school and being taught about Noah's Ark. Furthermore, as I stated above, I probably have quite a few beliefs that run off into the theoretical concerning physics, energy and matter that support my beliefs that when I find the right audience I launch into the description of but still get "those looks".
  • OR · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 845 votes
    17y

    [[[[........ I'm trying to get an objective point of view on why people have chosen their specific religion. To make an objective analysis ...... I need some objective data....]]]]]

    You are hoping to receive the definitive answer on religion? Generations of people have spent their entire lives searching and haven't come up with the definitive answer.

    I am nowhere on the Judeo-Christian axis. I practice my religion because it works. I don't mean it works for me, I mean it works.

    One thing I believe (not the central believe, but important) is that mankind is on the earth to serve his gods. The gods do not exist to serve man. I think it would solve a lot of problems if a lot of other people accepted that.

    If the assorted Judeo Christian "one god" is the same as the God of the Universe, Y'all will be happy to know that he/she/it (there is no pronoun) is out there. I've spoken to him/her/it and received a reply, even though that is not the god I worship.

    Same god? I don't know. Universal means god of everything, not just the god of all good things, and a separate god for anything bad or uncomfortable, who can not be called a god, even though he is.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by P NW:

    You are hoping to receive the definitive answer on religion?


    Nope, don't expect a definitive answer...just looking for some objective data...
  • OR · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 845 votes
    17y

    Jason, there is no objective data. Religion, by the very definition is "faith".

    My suggestion is: if you are interested and want information to go out and try several different kinds of religion, both mainstream and minority. Maybe one of them will speak to you, and you will understand the answers you hope to find.

    Some people aren't religious. I don't think there is any shame in that. There are several cultures where religion is left to the religious persons to take care of for everybody. The others just go about their lives knowing that the religious aspects are being taken care of for them.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by P NW:
    Jason, there is no objective data. Religion, by the very definition is "faith".


    So, if it's truly the case that there is NO objective data and religion was purely based on faith, then there can be absolutely no argument for or against any particular religion, right?

    In other words, what you're saying is that Christianity, Islam, Atheism, Heaven's Gate, Greek Mythology, Paganism, Scientology, and every other belief system on the planet are all on completely equal footing...and that there is no argument that any of them makes more (or less) sense than any other.

    The reason I started this thread is that there are lots of people here who don't believe that's the case, and I wanted to explore that further, for my own understanding...
  • Specialist · Las Cruces, NM · Member since 2009 · 557 posts · 71 votes
    17y

    Everytime this topic is brought up, whether in a conversation at a party or an online "political forum", I've yet to see a positive outcome.

    You're looking for data to prove what? How one religion can be proven to be better or more valid than another?

    The answer to this question is always biased and based upon ones own environment and upbringing. How can you come up with a correct answer when your sample group is biased? That alone will corrupt your "data".

    Is there one right answer?

    I'm sure there is, but you're definately not going to come up with the answer on this or any other forum.

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