Obama wins Nobel prize
Joshua D.Pro Member
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votesI rarely jump into our politics forum, but this has me shaking my head. All I have to say is:
Are you serious????? :roll:
I'm just completely confused as to what is going out on planet earth!
Nobody here has mentioned one fact, perhaps they didn’t realize it. The nomination was made 12 days after he took office!
Even if you think he is the greatest president ever he hadn’t accomplished anything in 12 days. He was nominated and won for one simple reason – he isn’t George W. Bush.
:cool:
I think you have to understand the Western European perspective of things in order to understand the Nobel award to Obama. Bush was not only disliked in Western Europe, but he was also looked down upon by the intelligentsia there. Obama looks very good in contrast. I agree that he would not have got this award but for Bush, so he should thank him for it.
MikeOH, I agree with you about socialism under Bush. I feel we no longer have a free-market option when we vote.
Vikram, I'll admit that I don't know much about the western European perspective on this. What was it about Bush that they didn't like? I heard that they felt that way, just never heard why.
Joseph, I am sure Uwe can speak on this. But there are many factors that make Western Europeans dislike Bush:
1. Europe is not gun-loving or openly religious in politics. This makes people there instinctively dislike politicians such as Bush.
2. The intelligentsia in most developed countries is generally left-leaning. (What is called "liberal" in America and some other countries.) The Nobel committee members are part of the intelligentsia, which is going to make them dislike Bush even more than the average Western European.
3. Now all this is regardless of whether Bush was a good president or a bad one. To make matters worse, in his first term Bush was not great at international diplomacy. He was actually pretty good at dealing with other countries in his second term, but by then people's minds were set.
4. Bush's war on Iraq is generally considered a stupid move by most people in most countries, and perhaps also in the U.S. except for his partisan supporters. In addition, people are upset that he was not entirely candid about the evidence for WMDs in Iraq, although I think anyone who believes a politician's claims only has himself to blame. The Iraq war's launch and the subsequent lack of WMD, was the final nail in the coffin for Bush's reputation abroad.
5. I think Bush's inability to speak well might have also contributed to a negative image of him abroad. In public office it is good to be able to communicate well. Bush was regarded as someone who could reach out to his partisan supporters but not to anyone else. (Interestingly, his father was not a great public speaker either but was very good at diplomacy - perhaps due to his greater experience at it.)
Many people outside the U.S. have an almost caricatured view of Bush, which is unfortunate, I think.
Well stated Vikram, thank you. I think that at least some Americans, based on having a slightly different world view than many Europeans in gereral, probably have a different perspective on Bush and the things that he did.
I don't think that even his most partisan of supporters were happy about everything that he did. On the extreme of both sides, there will be empty-headed puppets, but for most conservatives that were paying attention to what was going on, Bush was a mixed bag.
I think it's dangerous to blindly follow any party, as they are only SUPPOSED to be a vehicle for a set of beliefs. But no matter how perfect an ideal, no human being could ever be perfect enough to carry it out. Ego always gets in the way to some degree, and even when someone gets it almost right, (not talking about W) they will falter at least a little.
What they do is follow a religious ideology, and their political ideology just falls out of that.
For example, they are very conservative when it comes to things like fighting/warring with other religious ideologies, keeping government out of religion, etc.
And they are very liberal when it comes to the government controlling our bodies -- for example, outlawing assisted suicide, etc.
If religious leaders tell them to support one candidate or one view on a piece of legislation, they will. If religious leaders tell them to support a different candidate or a different piece of legislation, they will. It doesn't matter if it's consistent with a political ideology or not.
A perfect example is gay marriage. The government has had to pass extra legislation to keep gay marriage from being legalized (Defense of Marriage Act, 1996), and basically outlawing gay marriage is just tell individuals who they can and can't sign a particular contract with.
Clearly, any self-respecting conservative would stand up and cry, "Get rid of the extra legislation, and don't tell people who they can and can't sign contracts with!" But, many of those who claim to be conservative are all for government intervention on this issue.
They claim to be conservative, but they have very liberal attitudes towards some issues that are important to their religious leaders.
This just leads me to believe that many people have no consistent political ideologies, they just have religious ideologies, and they are willing to sell out their political beliefs in a heartbeat if it means satisfying their religious doctrine.
While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, I find it funny that many of them like to "bash" liberals, without realizing that they are just as liberal when it comes to some issues...in other words, it becomes bad when it creates hypocritical actions and words...
J Scott, we meet again :) I see what you're saying. Conservative doesn't automatically equal religious. The core values that this country was built on way back when, whether anyone likes it or not, were built in large part on Judeo-Christian values. Not in a theocratical way necessarily, just that their values where filtered through the better parts of that ideology. I personally consider myself to be a fairly conservative guy on most, but not all issues. However, my worldview isn't dictated by any religious dogma. I'm not strictly Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. I'm actually pretty liberal when it comes to religion. When it comes to personal responsibility in every single aspect of life, I'm as conservative as they come.
To quote the Bible ironically... :) "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach him how to fish and he eats forever."
I love every single person in this world, because I feel that we all come from the same place, and basically, if our minds are free to think, want the same things. Yet I'm against all but the most necessary of welfare. Why is this? Why am I so conservative? Because regardless of what anyone tells me to think, I believe that conservative principles, so long as they aren't bastardized by politics, show the most love you can show a person. Don't just give them a fish and send them on their way. Teach them how to catch their own. Not only will they eat forever and live a good life (if they choose to) but they will enjoy the feeling of independence and personal power that every human being deserves. If they have no arms to fish, and no family to feed them, then give them a fish, but otherwise, they're on there own. As it should be. Being on their own means that they are free to be on their own or not.
The reason that I am conservative, and not liberal (if labels must be applied) is that, in spite of the tough love that conservative principles exude at times, the conservative will teach the man, thus allowing him more freedom and success than anyone could ever want, and a liberal's first instinct, imo, would be to give him the fish (from my pile) and encourage him to do just whatever feels good that day. There's no character in that. No integrity and no value. Is that a decent enough argument, even though I quoted from the "black book?" :)
As far as the gay marriage thing goes, it's true that many conservatives base their sole opinion on the Bible and political pundits. That's never a good reason for policy.
However, some conservatives base their opinion on things other than that. Don't want to start a whole new thread here, I'm just saying it isn't as bad as you think in all cases. Sometimes people have good, solid reasons to believe what they believe, religion or no.
Man, you shoot from the hip :) I like that. I'm a huge fan of independent thought. I'm probably more libertarian than anything, but I fear that if we did things entirely their way that things would fall to pieces. The problem with politics is that unless you really get into the meat of it, it doesn't encourage independent thought. It encourages bullet points, often taken out of context, that become the basis of a whole limited belief system.
Conservatives don't believe that the government shouldn't be involved in anything. True conservatives believe that the government should maintain both a thriving economy, and an optimum society that both allows and encourages self reliance, independence, education, and hard work leading to massive success. That's what a true conservative believes. A real conservative is actually a pretty great person. Disciplined, hard working, giving, and family-oriented. There are a lot of posers out there calling themselves conservatives that cry Bible all the time but make no effort to be the kind of person they'd better be to represent my beliefs.
To get back on topic, I'll use gay marriage again, only because it's the first one you listed. Not all conservatives are against it of course, but most are. Some for religious reasons, but some for societal reasons. There are some that view the importance of the institution of marriage not in a religious way, but as being a vital part of the glue that holds society together. A family really is the building block of any society. Without the traditional family, society would cease to be. That's the viewpoint that some of them take. So it isn't so much an ideology to them, as a practical concern. True conservatives value freedom above all else, but also value the constantly maintained system in which that freedom may be exercised. I hope that shed some light. It sucks to see how much the country is divided now, and with things as crazy as they are it would be good if we could all understand each other a bit and rally around something if the need arose :)
If you claim to be a conservative, but have non-conservative beliefs about certain religious ideological issues, great. Just say, "I'm conservative, but have some non-conservative beliefs." And don't bash those who also have some non-conservative beliefs.