What part of ILLEGAL do liberals not understand?
Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/14/arizona-legislature-prepares-immigration-enforcement-governors-signature/
We have an excellent legal immigration policy which millions of people have used to move to this country. Why must we tolerate ILLEGAL immigration?
Not to stir the pot too much, but let's look at who really benefits from the immigrant problem.
1. Business owners who want CHEAP LABOR.
2. Business owners who want labor that CAN'T form unions.
3. Politicians who don't want low wage labor to VOTE, for the reason that, in general, lower wage workers vote D.
4. Politicians who don't want the immigrant problem to go away because it's a great way to "rally the base". These same pols don't want the abortion debate to go away. Both are great ways to raise money and rally the base.
I have a good friend who basically spouts all the Rush Limbaugh points on this. His feeling is ANYONE with skin darker than his should be stopped on the street and forced to show ID. He somehow thinks that it would be "easy" to round up 11,000,000 people. No ideas on how to identify the ones to round up.
Somehow he firmly believes that "hard working Americans" are lining up to cut lettuce, pick fruit and other such labor. This is a guy who won't mow his own lawn because "it's hot and hard work". I guess he also thinks that all business owners, particularly CORPORATE FARMS AND FOOD PROCESSORS are raging liberals.
Is there anyone on this site, or their kids or friends who would work the fields in AZ, process chickens in AL, TX, AR? It is difficult work and not highly rewarding.
PS: This is encouraging me to make my first AZ investment.
We also need a fool proof way of guaranteeing US Citizenship before registering for school, getting medical care, welfare, AFDC, WICA, etc...
Maybe a legitimate Birth Certificate?!? Can be cross referenced with the County Database to verify validity.
the liberals think of the millions of people that will vote for them if they just show them some "compassion". Never mind the law.
I'm sorry, was that out loud? :wink:
I disagree with illegal immigration whole heartedly. But this law has many holes which would make it very hard to enforce. I only read the article above, so I might not be properly informed but this is what the article said:
"1-- Create a new state misdemeanor crime of willful failure to complete or carry an alien registration document.
2-- Allow officers to arrest immigrants unable to show documents proving they're legally in the country.
3-- Ban so-called soft immigration policies at local police agencies and allow people to sue if they feel a government agency has adopted a policy that hinders the enforcement of illegal immigration laws.
4-- Prohibit people from blocking traffic when they seek or offer day-labor services on street corners."
Lets go through them point by point.
1 makes no sense, so, if someone simply forgets their resident alien card, they will have a misdemeanor? I am a US citizen and currently active duty, but just yesterday I left my house without my wallet. If I had gotten a ticket in TX for driving w/o a license, I would just have to show a valid license in court and it would be dismissed with minor court fees (20 bucks or so)
2 also doesn't make sense to me. So, if a person gets pulled over and has a DL but no resident alien card or passport on him, does that mean he would be arrested? I assume if the person doesn't have a DL he would be arrested anyway whether he is a US citizen or not. Also, how does the police office know who to ask for proof? Anyone that just looks like an immigrant? I mean, I fall in that category.
3. On this one, I can already see a palethera of law suits against local agencies. That would drive up the legal expenses thus driving up taxes, wouldn't it?
4. I don't know what they are talking about.
5. I could agree with that, though it would be hard to prove that a person knowingly transported an illegal unless he is trafficking humans.
Now, those are just my observations. If I am mistaken on those, then please correct me.
Oh and one other thing. The article didn't mention any supporting facts about illegals commiting more crime than 'legals'. I would be interested in seeing any unbiased numbers on that.
Remember, it is no longer "politically correct" to call them "illegals." The PC crowd would like you to refer to them as "undocumented."
:cool:
good point Tim :)
I'm curious as to what exactly our "excellent legal immigration policy" is in this country? I hear it referred to like that all the time but I never hear anybody say any specifics about what it is. Most of the time, people are talking about Hispanic people when they talk illegal immigrants. So what IS the legal means of somebody from Guatemala to immigrate to the US? Why does it make some people pay exorbitant amount of cash and risk their life crossing the desert into AZ?
Here is the Immigration Policy Website. You can find anything here that you are looking for.
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
Compared to a IRS 1040, that every US Citizen who makes money must file, the immigration process is a piece of cake.
Bob, I'm dating a woman who immigrated here from Iran during the Bush administration legally with her parents. It is a 5 year process and she has made herself a productive, contributing member of American society (and she keeps me in line). Most countries that Americans try to legally obtain citizenship in or immigrate too have restrictions in the way of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees and "required investments or donations". We're still very good to people around the world who want to legally join us here.
I didn't say the immigration process wasn't time consuming. Before becoming a citizen, a person should have to go through a learning process.
As for 1040's, I used to do my own taxes until about 5 years ago, and it just became a nightmare.
Takes about as much time to become a citizen here as it does to get a college degree (which you can do at the same time AND get US financial aid for) and I don't see people bitching about our higher education system.
Not to stir the pot too much, but let's look at who really benefits from the immigrant problem.
1. Business owners who want CHEAP LABOR.
2. Business owners who want labor that CAN'T form unions.
3. Politicians who don't want low wage labor to VOTE, for the reason that, in general, lower wage workers vote D.
4. Politicians who don't want the immigrant problem to go away because it's a great way to "rally the base". These same pols don't want the abortion debate to go away. Both are great ways to raise money and rally the base.
I have a good friend who basically spouts all the Rush Limbaugh points on this. His feeling is ANYONE with skin darker than his should be stopped on the street and forced to show ID. He somehow thinks that it would be "easy" to round up 11,000,000 people. No ideas on how to identify the ones to round up.
Somehow he firmly believes that "hard working Americans" are lining up to cut lettuce, pick fruit and other such labor. This is a guy who won't mow his own lawn because "it's hot and hard work". I guess he also thinks that all business owners, particularly CORPORATE FARMS AND FOOD PROCESSORS are raging liberals.
Is there anyone on this site, or their kids or friends who would work the fields in AZ, process chickens in AL, TX, AR? It is difficult work and not highly rewarding.
Having lived in a socialist country for half my life (20 yrs) and having gone thru the painful immigration process here for another 7 long years (with both my father and grandfather being US citizens, grandfather also being WWI veteran) it never ceases to amaze me how far off base most people are (I'm really trying to avoid the term CLUELESS here) when they talk with immesurable self confidence about how this country is heading for socialism (or reached that point already) on one hand, and how simple, easy, straight forward and ultimately FAIR the whole immigration process is (and also how you can qualify for all type of benefits like Education Aid while fighting the monsterous bureaucratic immigration process).
For the record, I was entitled to pay all taxes while I was fighting thru the immigration process but never did qualify for any educational aid so I ended up having to pay for all schooling thru hard earned cash from a lousy $5/hr job. And this is not a talking point regurgitated from a weeping talk show buffoon, it's personal experience that dragged me thru years of hardship.
P.S. There were 7 long yrs of fighting the unjust, screwed up and bureaucratic immigration process just until I gained the greeen card, and another 5 afterwards for the citizenship, so 12 total.
Well Sorin, it must have been worth it, you didn't give up.
Frank, my grandparents were migrant farm workers who moved from Missouri to California in 1939. They ended up in the Fresno area picking nuts, fruits and other produce to make a living. American's were harvesting farm products long before ILLEGAL immigrants showed up.
But nearly everyone who has posted has not answered my original question. "What part of ILLEGAL do liberals (or anyone else for that matter) understand?"
If my country is so GREAT that you want to come here, the least you can do is show enough RESPECT for our laws that you come here LEGALLY.
All of the other arguments, the immigration process, cheap labor, more votes, etc... are apart from the issue. If I do something illegal, I get arrested, fined and/or jailed and/or community service. Why should someone who invades my country illegally be given anything?
Something to be said here about legal and illegal when it comes to immigration. Again, keep in mind, this is all personal experience not regurgitated talking points from talk shows.
I entered this country legally in 1990 as a visitor.
I applied to adjustment of status to permanent resident (as child of a US citizen) soon afterwards from my current address at the time, (A)
INS had a backlog of years in processing anything that was immigration related. In my case, 4-5 yrs.
During those years I moved around like any single guy would do to address B,C,D,E and everytime made sure I informed INS of my new address. INS promptly misplaced (lost) every single one of these notices, as I would come to find out later (too late)
I renewed my work visa with the same local INS office every year to be current, emphasizing my new address. Inquired about the status of my adjustment file, was told less than politely (downright rude) to "wait home for your notice"
During all this time I work, pay taxes, was not entitled to any benefits like Educational Aid, complete school despite of that (2 degrees paid entirely from a $5/hr job) and get a professional white collar job (that I hold to this day)
4-5 yrs into this saga INS backlog reaches to my file. Invites me to an interview (notice sent to address A). Never reaches me, obviously. I get turned down in my request due to being absent. Notice to appeal? Sent to address A. Of course I have no idea. Therefore, failed the appeal, I'm an illegal alien now, placed on the deportation list. Sent notice on that to address A. Have I got a clue about this? Of course not.
About 4 mo later I go as usual to renew my work visa, I found out that I'm an illegal alien, on the deportation list for a few good months now. At this point I should be grabbed by authorities and deported, right by you guys? At this point I should drop my job, my life, my family and get deported, would that sound right by you guys? All for what fault of mine?
It takes me another couple months with legal representation (i.e. lots and lots of $$$) to turn this around, to get my visas straight. And another couple of years of immigration mumbo jumbo until I get my GC.
So in the end, I was illegal for a good 6 months (unbeknownst to me) and worked, and paid taxes (no benefits whatsoever) during that time. Ultimately the situation was remedied thru legal help and a lot of money (that others less fortunate may not be able to afford) but again, during that time I should've been grabbed off the street and deported accordingly, right guys? Where did I go wrong in my legal fight with the INS monster?
So please, do tell me again about legal and illegal, black and white, right and wrong? Any takers?
P.S. It does me no pleasure to expose my life story here but again, some of the self righteousness on LEGAL, ILLEGAL is just too much for me. Do you guys never speed or jaywalk or throw a cigarette butt from your car, ever, even unknowingly? All that's illegal, last time I checked...
Mike,
Your comment on our discussion on illegals really moved me that your parents moved to Cali to pick nuts. The thing is that times change in 70 years and I doubt that you would pick nuts or anybody that you know would do the same today. So these illegals are not taking American jobs but jobs Americans do not want or will actually do. Americans feel that this work is degrading. But people from very poor countries will do this to feed their families. It's nice to debate this topic with other conservatives. So I am not bashing you or any other tea baggers in the GOP, I am just trying to open the discussion. I am not liberal or conservative, I just want the best for my country and both parties seem to be disingenuous. Conservatives seem to feel like you stated Mike that these foreigner's come to the US to break the law which is so far from the truth. There will always be bad apples but maybe illegals are not given the chance to make a life for themselves fairly. People will go to extremes to feed their families. How far would you go if you lost your job and had no money and your family was starving? It's always good to try and trade shoes sometimes. And it might give you some perspective. Maybe the US should make policies that would help foreigner's instead of being so biased towards them, especially since our country was based on immigrants. I am not a immagrant and I was born in the US but I just try to see what the reality is and that some ways of thinking are still back in the colonial days. We have to deal with what is in front of us and we cannot just send everyone away that is not white or born in America. The constitution was made to change with the times and so should we.
Sorin
I will be 50 this summer. My last moving violation was when I was 21, and I paid a FINE for being illegal. I try to stay legal is everything I do. I have NEVER done any illegal substance in my life. I have NEVER smoked in my life. To my knowledge, I have NEVER jay walked either. In other words, I try to stay LEGAL as much as possible. While I may fail here and there, I strive to stay legal.
My grand-mother was 1/2 Cherokee, so you might say I am about as legal as possible.
Someone asked how it affects me in my every day life? I guess you mean other than my tax dollars paying for education, welfare, medical costs, housing costs, food stamps, etc...? How about my car being stolen by an illegal alien? How about a friend being killed by an illegal alien? How about graffiti being sprayed all over my investment property by illegal aliens? How about that drunk illegal alien that killed the Angels Pitcher, Nick Adenhart, last year? With millions of illegal aliens in Southern California, which is where I am now, how about traffic, long lines at retail stores, trying to order a burger and the illegal behind the counter can't understand me or give proper change when the bill is 6.08 and I hand her 10.08? I could write a novel about how they negatively affect my every day life! I was on a jury for a murder trial. The defendant and witnesses were all illegal aliens. We had to hear all the testimony twice, once in English and once in Spanish. The trial lasted 3 weeks when it should have taken only one week. How much do you think that trial cost the taxpayers? Well over a million dollars.
ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL!
If I had to go pick strawberries, I would. Luckily, I have a Bachelor's Degree and companies think I am valuable to them so they hire me. I worked hard and had my Bachelors when I was 21. I work very hard and would do whatever it takes, AND I would be LEGAL!
Not keeping your records together and reported properly is illegal for many things in this country. The reason it is your responsibility, not the INS's to make SURE they have your paperwork is that until you are a citizen you are a guest here. As a guest here, you have to follow the law to the letter. You don't get to blame the host that you are a guest who isn't keeping track of his paperwork. I don't know what country you came here from Sorin but I can't imagine it having worse diplomatic with the US than Iran. If Iranians can immigrate here legally and keep their paperwork in line, I give nobody any excuses.
I have been a guest in several countries that have different laws and customs than the US. It is not their fault that as a guest, these laws are different to me. It is my choice as a guest to respect their laws on their soil.
In Munich, for example I had to buy Ubahn tickets on the honor system. It would be easy to cheat that system but it's rude and disrespectful to their laws and customs and I don't get to blame the Ubahn administration for "not making it clear enough" to me. Were I to go to Iran or another muslim country with my girlfriend I would not be able to kiss her or likely hold her hand in public. I can speak my mind about that here on US soil, but when I go there it is my responsibility to respect their laws.
Mike, after laying down my whole life story (and legal/illegal experience with INS) and your response is your last moving violation? I'm sorry I just wasted my time here, I don't think that can be a productive discussion. (hint: speeding does not ALWAYS equate to sanctioned violation). To the best of your knowledge you never jaywalked! To the best of my knowledge I was never in breach of the law... until I found out otherwise, that I was illegal, on deportation, due to a generous INS screw up. Need I say more?