This sucks. We're # 11, or worse.
Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
http://www.newsweek.com/content/newsweek/2010/08/12/how-to-understand-american-decline.html
Current Newsweek article lists The United States as # 11 in countries worldwide. Really cool website with different categories. Unfortunately, in Health, we're # 23, behind such countries as Slovenia and So Korea.
The one that scares me and the article pointed out is Education. I guess all those BP posters that are concerned about education in our country, know something! We're ranked 26, behind countries like Cuba, Poland and Czech-republic. This can't be good. Rich
Education is the key, we need to cut the pork and spend it all on education - but in the right ways.
When you find yourself trailing Cuba in any statistic, let alone something as vital ad education, it is definitely scary.
And as a reflection from someone who is just exiting the education system (I have both private and public background - public for college), I will say that the largest problem in our education system is the culture of students.
Americans simply do not value education, it is a given right paid for by taxes, and we've come to a point that it is taken for granted.
My grandfather had 7 siblings, their parents had 3 pairs of shoes and chose the most intelligent to get to wear the shoes and goto school. Today each kid has 7 different pairs of shoes in 3 different colors apiece, and couldn't care less about attending class.
Ask any asian who has now joined the american education system and they will narrate the stark differences in the mentality and social influences in school.
I myself took all general classes in high school and choose to skip school and drink beer in lieu of furthering my education. Albeit I turned out okay, turn on MTV and tell me the largest problem in America today isn't the culture of our children. Societal pressures weigh VERY heavy, and it is the "cool" thing to be a screw up for some reason - that is the problem.
I am confused by some of the points made here. Perhaps it's my point of view that is limiting. I do teach public school in Texas. There are no teacher's unions in Texas. It is illegal for the Texas teachers to unionize or strike. We do have standardized tests that measure student performance as required by NCLB and state law.
Agreed, most teachers I know don't like that standardized test but not because of any threat to their job. We don't like the standardized test because of what it does to kids. Not all kids are the same and not all kids develop at the same rate. To require a kid that reads on a third grade level to pass a fifth grade test is torture. The state legislature is the one who makes the rules. We have to follow the rules.
If you really want to see people that don't like standardized testing stand outside of public schools around the end of the year after the test results have been revealed. You will hear all kinds of cussing from the angry parents because their kid, who did no homework and refused to cooperate all year, failed the state mandated tests. Now they have to go to summer school and their vacation plans are ruined. I have been screamed at and cussed at over this.
BUT, 99% of my kids and their parents work with me and get along with my and I get along with them and their kids are successful. I would rather focus on them and hold them up as the example. I would rather not generalize about all kids and parents based on a few.
All across Texas, public school districts are having budget shortfalls. Many of those school districts have open enrollment for anyone that can show they are willing to do the class work. Many of these districts have had great results on the standardized test. You don't have to move, all you have to do is call and ask.
Again, if you don't like what you see, get involved. There is plenty of ways to help. I would make sure you own kids are well taken care of first. Then you can volunteer at the school to read, tutor, mentor, work in the cafeteria, or many other things related to helping the kids education. Run for school board. Sign up and do a presentation for career day. Come on and spend several weeks with me and see what life is like in the classroom. I promise not to let any of the kids bite you. :D
Overall, I think the education system that I know of needs adjustments but not a total overhaul. Thousands of kids a year graduate in Texas every year and go on to live productive lives. I am sure the other states have similar results. Sure there are kids that are not being reached. IMHO that is due to standardization. Not all kids are the same and not all kids need or want to go to college. But, again, state and federal law requires that they all be taught the same thing, at the same time, and at the same level, with the same level of expected results. How can that happen?
Guys, the complaints against parents is misplaced. The reason parents feel stuck with poor teachers and teachers feel stuck with lousy parents is all the same - the lack of freedom that parents have to select a school and the lack of freedom that the school has to select a parent / kid.
In India, where the schools are fabulous, if a kid violates school policy, the parents are called for a meeting. If they problem does not get fixed, the kid is out of that school. This does not happen much because every parent knows that it is important for their kids to behave well and they make sure that happens.
The reason schools are able to control student behavior is because they are private and largely unregulated. Parents cannot sue a school for improperly kicking out a kid and neither can a teacher sue for being improperly fired.
I think we have seen throughout the world that a free and competitive private market provides better value to customers than a large government bureaucracy. I have no idea why some of you think schools are an exception to this.
Greg B- Thanks for the view from within the battle, as a teacher. Also, thanks for correcting the previously incorrect points about gerrymandering of school districts in Texas for school districts as well as the inferrance about teachers' unions in TX.
Once again, TX seems to be at the "head of the class".
Vikram- your last paragraph says it all, imo. Get the govt out of the oversight of MOST things and things would work smoother. Rich
Connecting this topic to RE values:
Where I'm at we have a highly-idealistic and PC School Superintendant who continuously gets school distrcts changed to better meet PC ideals.
Results: previously-wonderful family neighborhoods now have few children and are in decline as conscientious parents move to where the good schools are.
And personally, I can rent out my units much quicker if they are in a desirable school district which, unfortunately, changes regularly depending upon the PC whims of the local politicians.
Sam, I am not suggesting that all parents are great. Parents, like any other group, come with a variety of skills and qualities. There are terrible ones, lousy ones, mediocre ones, good ones, great ones, etc.
But that's true in all countries. The U.S. does not have a monopoly on bad parenting but it does seem to excel at bad schools.
There are many different ways to address the schooling problem. I like to see things solved with the simplest and most time-tested solution, which is to create a private, competitive market for education.
Remember, Rich said "MOST things", not "ALL things", the government needs to oversee some things.
Perhaps I can add some perspective to the debate since this topic has influenced my education distinctly throughout my life. My parents owned the SAME house during my entire upbringing in Austin. The house was near the school boundary lines and I grew up with one set of kids and was later shipped to another school between 7th and 8th grade. When I went to the new school with a lower socioeconomic base it was profound how much behind they were. My 8th grade year was spent rehashing a bunch of material I had already learned and I was bored senseless.
I was told this change was because the school districts were redrawn. This could have been bad information from my parents. Whatever the reasoning it WAS CLEAR that the lower socioeconomic kids received an inferior education.
This was also clear from my "higher" education. I attended public school at UT-Austin to study engineering and did my MBA at TCU. UT is a public school and TCU is a private school. There is a reason that private schools dominate the top schools in the country. There is a stark difference in experiences and quality between the two.
Fundamentally, a lack of choice and the inability to move away from inferior schools enables an entitlement mentality for those that work at those schools because they have no reason to compete and do good work.
OK. Gotcha now Bryan. We have a difference of semantics. I understand you had to attend a different school. I assume that school was within the same school district? If so what got you was a redrawing of "attendance zones" within the district. School districts do this to satisfy federal regulations on attendance mix and to balance school populations as the neighborhoods ebb and flow over years. I do agree that things happen when "attendance zones" are redrawn. However, again, that stuff is required by law, written by legislators.
I will also agree that different schools, different quality of education. My question, did your parents go to the school board and let their feelings about this be known? Did they go to the old school and attempt to make an appeal?
I am not saying the education system is without flaw. I am saying that there is a lot of good being done everyday by great people. I will agree with you that not all students have the same experience.
On school choice, I forgot to mention that we also have a thriving group of open enrollment magnet schools all across Texas. Many of these schools are in areas that serve the kids who need it most.
Sorry for your bad experience Bryan. I, myself, attended one of the toughest middle schools in Ft. Worth in all 3 grades. As a result I work hard to make sure each kid under my care feels safe and cared for. I choose to try and make a difference every day.
Regarding the semantics of "attendance zones"....I don't really care what you call it. Perhaps my description of school districts changing was the incorrect terminology. I believe in substance over form. The substantive effect of changing zones or the government shipping kids to different schools is to mix and match and goof with my life. That isn't the government's job. The government's job is to protect me from bad people and build infrastructure....and a few other things. That is it! It isn't their job to engineer my life.
Even if they had the best of intentions they couldn't possibly know what is happening in every class every day of the week. If they could simply use a voucher to send me to the best school and make that decision a few select times it would make the system efficient. This is no different than the way employers hire employees in every industry around. You hire the best and get rid of the duds. When you have to compete for your salary the labor product goes up a great deal. If the system was efficient the bad teachers would be jobless very quickly and find another profession they were good at.
The bottom line is that our current system is much worse than it would be if people had the choice of where to go. I also feel that the bottom line is that the system won't change because there are groups lobbying to keep the status quo. The rich kids' parents will have a choice of where to locate their kids and the poor folks will be relegated to what is available at their price point. We will then force everyone to take "standardized tests" to "level the playing field" when the inputs from their educators were decidedly unlevel. Those that benefit from the current system will lobby to keep the rif-raff out of their school district and those that do not benefit will lobby the other way. Those with the money generally wins these tussles so I don't see things changing anytime soon.
Greg B, I do not disagree with you at all and yet feel that you are missing the big picture. Let me respond to your post point by point:
1. You state that the change in attendance zones is required by law. I would not argue with that but wonder what that means for the purpose of our discussion. After all, the entire schooling system, from the property taxes that pay for it to the attendance zones and recruitment, retention and testing policies, are laws as well. My main argument is that we need none of this government bureaucracy. Disband the public school system and then we will not have to deal with any of these laws.
2. You also ask whether Bryan's parents tried to change the bureaucracy to make his education better. That again misses the point. Why have the bureaucracy in the first place when we all know that bureaucracies are generally lousy at getting things done? Shouldn't parents be able to vote with their feet if a school is bad instead of arguing with a bureaucracy?
3. You state that there are good things being done every day in the bureaucracy. I am sure you are right, in the same way that many good things were done in Russia by the Soviet government. If you look at their industrial production, they grew reasonably well during the Soviet era. And yet they lost the competition with the West. This is because the West did even better. The goal with policy is not to have some people do some good but to have the very best system one can have.
4. The open enrollment magent school example again misses the bigger picture. You are giving an example of a few schools inside a large bureaucracy that allow some choice. That does not mean that the system itself is free and competitive. In addition, I am sure people are not being given a choice in whether to pay taxes to support those schools. We need a normal market with normal choice, not a large non-free market with small pockets of selective freedom.
5. You then empathize with Bryan for his bad experience and go on to state how you are trying to contribute to making the system better. It's like someone supporting North Korea by claiming that they are trying to improve human rights there. I would rather try to get rid of the lousy system than have to sympathize with the victims of it or hope for volunteers to change it at its margins.
The fundamental contest is between freedom and bureaucracy. The argument that bureaucracy is better is a particularly weak one because it has been proven time and time again that bureacracies are generally a lousy way to run something.
I do agree that bureaucracies screw things up and slow things down. I have to deal with other government entities as well.
However, I have seen many examples in my lifetime where true free markets were not the answer either. One example is the deregulation of electricity providers in Texas. As a result we pay the highest rates in the US. It was proposed as a method for free market competition to lower rates. Has not worked.
Or how about the free market manipulation of oil prices by speculators on the open market 2 years ago. I loved paying $4.00 a gallon for gasoline, how about you?
How are the private, for profit schools going to be funded? Do you honestly believe that for profit, private sector education centers are going to care for the outliers? The profit will be in the 80% of the middle. The higher end students will still afford their better private schools. The lower end people, learning disabled, and behavior kids will be left out. They will be destined to live of off welfare, just as we have now.
I do have no problem with school choice. Some parents I do wish would exercise that choice now.
I am trying to see the bigger picture. I have been considering this for several days now. I am still not convinced that closing the public schools and making them private will change anything.
Greg, I see how it could potentially improve education greatly. It would not surprise me if a considerable windfall would be actually then provided for teaching. Government agencies constantly prove how inefficient government can be.
If more money actually got to teachers and a system that could run efficiently, I think we could easily attract better teachers and perhaps take some of the politics out of schools as well. The end result would mean kids would all have a better chance at a real education.
Also the curriculum that are mandated often emphasizes a broad education over a quality education. It is a shame that kids graduate with poor financial management skills and often lack sound job skills.
Greg, it is important to remember that a private market will be very different in its structure from the current system. Right now, private schools tend to be expensive because the government has essentially taken over the free/cheap education market. But if the government were to get out of the way, you will find good schools in different price categories catering to the needs of different parent demands.
For example, where I live (Bangalore) there are private schools that charge more than the typical private school in the U.S. and have excellent academic records. They also have a large campus with tons of sporting facilities. And then there are very inexpensive private schools that focus a lot on education and just a few extra-curricular activities. These schools are just as good academically as the more expensive ones. Poorer people who want their kids to get a top education send their kids to such schools.
The beauty of a private market is that it will create a wide variety of service offerings that cater to a variety of different needs and abilities. We will not have a one-size-fits-all market anymore.
Sure, Greg. Check out the following 3 schools in Bangalore, India.
1. The International School, Bangalore (TISB)
2. NAFL, Bangalore
3. NPS, Bangalore
The funny thing is that all three of them are run by the same entity but cater to different price points. They are all excellent academically. TISB charges about $11K per year, NAFL charges about $2K per year and NPS charges less than $1,000 per year.
2 years ago I had the opportunity to teach science in a credit recovery high school. This school was for those teens that had screwed up but had turned their lives back around and needed a second chance. I have heard about teaching financial literacy in schools for about 7 years since I read Rich Dad Poor Dad. At the time I owned a network of online newspapers and several rental properties. The school called me to ask if I could help for the last half of the year because the existing teacher had to leave due to health reasons.
The kids were cool and very street wise. They asked a lot of questions from me. I thought this would be a great chance to teach some financial literacy and business to these kids when the time allowed after science lessons. i was licking my chops. awesome opportunity.
As time rolled on I introduced different concepts to them relating to spending less than you make and planning for the future. I told many of them different ways to take their ideas to market and grow a business. I gave them my personal email address and phone number if they wanted to pursue this further after school. Can you guess how many took me up? None, zero, zip. They were interested in the fast buck or score. No hard work, thinking, or determination. Living below your means was stupid. Gotta have the bling now.
In my own kid's class, the top academic performers in her school, they were introduced to Dave Ramsey's course for teens. You want to know how interested they were? Not at all. As is typical with teens, they already knew it all.
I have not tried to teach financial literacy to the normal, average teen. However, I've been around enough to believe that you would have very little interest. It's just not the way they were raised.
Also, I have tried to teach some financial literacy to 5th graders in my math lessons many years ago. What a yawner.
Perhaps I'm not that good of a teacher since I am the constant in all of those scenarios. Someone better than me will have to get the kids interested in financial literacy.
ok folks- we're not going to solve any of the education concerns on here. Again, we seem to be nitpicking here, and attacking the messenger, rather than the ranking in an article. Attack Newsweek. Attack the method of testing used in the article. Attack the teachers. Attack the schools themselves. Attack the BP posters.    My kids started public schools in 1975. Since then, I've had kids or grand kids in public schools. These youth have attended schools in CA, OR, UT, TX, OK, and NV over the past 35 years. There have been tremendous changes, imo. Less parental involvement, less discipline allowed, 4 times as much money spent on it, and the creation of the Dept of Education. (feds decide to take over what should be a state and local thing, imo.)    I've visited a lot of countries, and I'll tell you, MANY have different priorities on education. If you don't think the kids are coming out of school with less knowledge than 25 years ago, I disagree. Why do immigrant children win the spelling bees almost every year? Just luck? Why do we have nearly a million kids entering college each year needing REMEDIAL courses just to catch up?     Brian H- I never entered your name in any post. Sorry you thought it was you. You were the only one talking about gerrymandering school districts and didn't make any differentiation about it referring to nationwide. You're in Texas, have kids in Texas schools, and in a discussion with a Texas school teacher.Unions were brought up by multiple posters. Sorry if you felt slighted.Back to the original thread. An article coming out this weekend in Newsweek has all the rankings. I intend to buy the mag and check it out on flight and cruise to Galopogos Islands. Maybe I'll check out Ecuador standings and some of their schools while there, tic. Rich
So what is your thesis Rich? If a lack of choice isn't the problem...what is?
Is it simple complacency? A lack of parenting skills? Parents being too busy or lazy to take an active involvement in their kid's life?
These types or arguments always seem silly to me. I can't imagine that we spend more or less time with our kids than those in other developed nations.
I think the lack of competition is 95% of the problem in any industry where there are output problems...which is the case when kids aren't measuring up.
If you eliminate the current system it would have profound impacts on property values. This is similar to eliminating the government's involvement from the home financing market. Everyone is scared of the impact on property values, the lender's security interest, foreclosure rates, etc. Once you design the system a certain way it is VERY hard to change it. The gov-mint bureaucracy monster cannot be killed without taking out tons of innocent bystanders at the same time. However, it needs to be changed or our primary education system will continue to languish in this country.
Greg- check your mail when you return! Rich
Well the good news about these ranking is that our illegal immigration problems will be solved. Since these countries are better than us the millions will most certainly want to live there now.
aaahhh, peace and quiet, now our politicians can concentrate on jobs and the economy.
Chris