This sucks. We're # 11, or worse.
Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
http://www.newsweek.com/content/newsweek/2010/08/12/how-to-understand-american-decline.html
Current Newsweek article lists The United States as # 11 in countries worldwide. Really cool website with different categories. Unfortunately, in Health, we're # 23, behind such countries as Slovenia and So Korea.
The one that scares me and the article pointed out is Education. I guess all those BP posters that are concerned about education in our country, know something! We're ranked 26, behind countries like Cuba, Poland and Czech-republic. This can't be good. Rich
Education is the key, we need to cut the pork and spend it all on education - but in the right ways.
When you find yourself trailing Cuba in any statistic, let alone something as vital ad education, it is definitely scary.
And as a reflection from someone who is just exiting the education system (I have both private and public background - public for college), I will say that the largest problem in our education system is the culture of students.
Americans simply do not value education, it is a given right paid for by taxes, and we've come to a point that it is taken for granted.
My grandfather had 7 siblings, their parents had 3 pairs of shoes and chose the most intelligent to get to wear the shoes and goto school. Today each kid has 7 different pairs of shoes in 3 different colors apiece, and couldn't care less about attending class.
Ask any asian who has now joined the american education system and they will narrate the stark differences in the mentality and social influences in school.
I myself took all general classes in high school and choose to skip school and drink beer in lieu of furthering my education. Albeit I turned out okay, turn on MTV and tell me the largest problem in America today isn't the culture of our children. Societal pressures weigh VERY heavy, and it is the "cool" thing to be a screw up for some reason - that is the problem.
I really think we need some sort of education reform -- at least in our degree programs.
people are 100-200-300k in debt by the time they graduate, with no "high paying jobs" to speak of after they graduate.
talking about putting a financial strain on the fed reserve. I was watching a frontline doc last night called "College Inc" about for profit universities. The statistics of those currently defaulting were absurd!
as far as elementary/middle/high schools are concerned, I wouldn't even know where to start. Coming from Los Angeles and seeing the public schools there as compared to here in middle TN, there is no comparison. The roughest of public schools here, look like the best of private schools there.
How do you fix what is going on in huge metropolitan school districts? thank God I'm not involved in education! I think what has REALLY burdened Los Angeles, and Cali schools in general is the huge influx of illegal immigrant children (born United States Citizens)
Education is the key, we need to cut the pork and spend it all on education - but in the right ways.
When you find yourself trailing Cuba in any statistic, let alone something as vital ad education, it is definitely scary.
And as a reflection from someone who is just exiting the education system (I have both private and public background - public for college), I will say that the largest problem in our education system is the culture of students.
Americans simply do not value education, it is a given right paid for by taxes, and we've come to a point that it is taken for granted.
My grandfather had 7 siblings, their parents had 3 pairs of shoes and chose the most intelligent to get to wear the shoes and goto school. Today each kid has 7 different pairs of shoes in 3 different colors apiece, and couldn't care less about attending class.
Ask any asian who has now joined the american education system and they will narrate the stark differences in the mentality and social influences in school.
I myself took all general classes in high school and choose to skip school and drink beer in lieu of furthering my education. Albeit I turned out okay, turn on MTV and tell me the largest problem in America today isn't the culture of our children. Societal pressures weigh VERY heavy, and it is the "cool" thing to be a screw up for some reason - that is the problem.
You make a strong point Jimmy .... I'm 25 years old myself, never graduated high school and have made quite a bit of myself so far (a tleast I like to think :lol: ) It saddens me seeing people that are older than me, still living with their parents, and milking the government for all they're worth. Many of these people used to be good friends of mine in high school. Besides the 1 other person whose father left him several franchise restaurants, I have yet to see anyone else (whether college degreed or not) really try and make anything of themselves.
99% of people live in the mindset that they must work for someone else the rest of our lives. Our colleges FEED this information to students daily.
There are problems with today's youth as well as the schooling system itself. Debt + Self Entitlement Issues = Disaster
I've been saying education is the main problem on here for two years now, and I continue to stick by that assertion. Every economic problem in this country can be traced back to e decline in education in this country.
Countries that value education will continue to move ahead of us in terms of economic progession and deservedly so.
Also funny how i've pointed out numerous times on this forum that we DON'T have the best health care in the world but until now, nobody here has wanted to acknowledge it. There's no shame in admitting this country has a lot of issues that need to be addressed. Ignoring those and insisting we're the greatest country in the world from every aspect is ridiculous.
But again, if we can figure out how to regain the lead in education, we can regain the lead in lots of areas.
For a great example of a country that has an appropriate view of education, look at India.
I'd say we have less of an education problem and more of a lack of parents instilling/modeling a love of learning with their children, along with a government that's determined not to let anything fail.
There's a great book called "Better Late then Early" that goes thru a myriad of data and scientific studies that outline all the damaging effects a child incurs when they are placed in a public school/day care setting at such young ages. As the name of the book suggests, a child will benefit the most when entering these types of social environments at an older age, 12+, then earlier. The author contends and the data supports that a child's top needs during the 1st 12 years of life are a sense of "belonging" to the family and developing a love for learning (figuring things out). When a child is outside of their home and isn't able to follow their individiual interests, you lose the 2 most important elements of childhood for later success. Most parents fear that their child will fall behind other kids, but the stats tell a completely different story. Children will teach themselves, in a household where learning is encouraged, and ultimately outpace those placed in a traditional school setting. But making the decision to keep your kids out of school until later and home with you, generally brings a difficult choice between lifestyle and your childs best interests. We're also marketed into believing that there is an "expert" or "curriculum" out there that will be able to do a better job teaching/raising your kids than you can.
My paradigm on self-taught/home-schooling families was crushed when I moved to Texas from Michigan/Ohio. I thought the home-school kids would be little anti-social weirdo's, turns out quite the opposite!
In short, you can balance budgets a lot easier when you don't have to fund public education/infrastructure and the people/country/economy will be all the better for it.
What great replies.
JScott- I guess I come over to your side on the education problem- health care will have to wait. I was shocked when I saw the ratings.Rich
While I agree there is a long way to go to fix education and health care and etc.,I'm not ready to fall in lock step just because Newsweek gave us a friggin rating. Whoopee!
There was probably a lot of information and good intentions that went into this article/study. However, just speculating here but I'm guessing that information is somewhat subjective and open for interpretation, and you could probably track down a credible source that tells a different tale.
I do believe though that we are definetly slipping backward and losing any edge or advantage we may have held in the past and those that are gaining on us have seen it coming for a while now.
Greg -
Certainly no argument. The two (upbringing and education) go hand in hand. Children will never succeed in school without a inquisitiveness fostered at home.
Chris -
I've read a number of studies over the past several years. They all use different criteria, but they all point to the same result -- the U.S. is far from dominant in most social and educational areas compared to the rest of the world.
Sure, you can develop a study that uses criteria that would ensure the U.S. is number one, but I haven't seen that yet in any study in the past 10 years.
We certainly have a problem with education in this country due to unions running things and a lack of choice from the consumer of education. If you give people choice to move and allocate the resources efficiently the model will fix itself very quickly.
I have been through A LOT of school and can tell you that a big part of the problem is that the economics stop working out after a certain point. It is much more profitable for people to start their own business or take courses of action that discourage hard sciences and such. We bid out our most valuable positions to Indians willing to work for 30% of what people in The States will work for. Why would someone go through the brain damage of getting more education with these incentives?
Another thing to consider is that we somewhat efficiently deploy our resources. Our primary education system sucks, but we have the best colleges in the world and only shower those most worthy with the best education. This fits very well in a country that values capitalism and the efficient deployment of resources.
I think we have a "Unions" problem, not just an education problem.,
The school system is dominated by teachers unions. Result: lousy schools.
Airlines are dominated by unions. Result: lousy airlines.
Auto companies dominated by unions. Same result.
Government dominated by government employee unions. Same result.
Higher education NOT dominated by unions. Result: The best higher education institutions in the world.
When are we going to learn that unions are a form of communism-lite? They need to be banned and the anti-trust laws should be brought to include the suppliers of labor organizing themselves.
Bryan, regarding Indian wages. There was a time when U.S. companies offshored tech work to India because of the lower wages. Now they do it because of the higher quality of the work AND the lower wages. You are right that it is hard to compete against that combination.
Communism-lite is a good term for today's unions imo. It has turned into a great protectionism for poor service with no checks and balances. There are a lot of examples of that. Teachers not wanting any required standards for actually teaching their students.
Auto unions receiving higher pay to produce an inferior product.
When New York has an infight on construction of a new project due to the high costs of union workers, it shows the mess.
I don't see education changing in the U.S. anytime soon. Lack of parenting, no ability to remove bad or lazy teachers due to tenure and union fights, lack of student discipline, little requirement for student performance, etc. We need to reverse the "dumbing down" process of our youth in schools to turn it around. Not easy chore. Rich
We have debated this before Vikram, but the "brain drain" is primarily a function of policy that encourages "efficient" uses of resources. This works fine until we no longer have enough qualified engineers and scientists to sustain our national defense or produce 1/10th of what the Chinese do. If we set the market wage so low that our best and brightest become tax lawyers instead to me this is a travesty. THAT is the reason we have a secondary education problem in this country IMO....a lack of incentives to pursue the careers that people deem as important.
I definitely agree that teacher's unions and a lack of choice is the problem for primary education.
One of the reasons to pursue a PhD is to avoid all the barriers the "medical cartel " struggles against every day. Maybe your partners chose their paths because they liked the field, and not the funds.
I'm not siding with the Docs, but the red tape, malpractice awards, and govt interference have HELPED to skyrocket the costs of treatment. I'd be all for re-organization of the system, but imo, the method now is nuts.
I agree about the tax lawyers. We could go to a flat tax and end that. Until we go to tort reform, as well as insurance reform, we won't curb the medical costs. Thhe tort reform is never addressed, except in Texas, of course.Rich
That is a big reason that many of the policies are so hard to change. You have people that have devoted their whole careers to supporting a system that is designed a certain way...and they vote! If you campaign on changing something you have to worry about losing all of the votes from people that are in that industry.
If anything is going to propel us out of this mess it should be some type of technology, but we don't have the world's best engineers anymore as Vikram pointed out. Capital follows intellectual property that produces outsized returns. That doesn't seem to be our country right now.
McKinssey did a study on doctors and why they are compensated so high several years ago. All of the things mentioned were in the factors...cartels, malpractice, etc. if memory serves. Limiting the supply of doctors necessarily drives up the price of services though. We don't do that with engineers or scientists so why do we do it with doctors?!
Bryan, you are completely correct about the AMA being a cartel. They actually refused to accredit new medical schools in the U.S. until one university hired a former head of the ABA and he threatened to sue them. Now the AMA has been forced to start accrediting medical schools if they meet quality requirements.
Doctors, like any other profession, would love to restrict supply and increase their wages. In addition to the medical school thing, they have done it at various times by requiring people to use their services when it was not needed, such as for routine extensions of prescriptions for chronic conditions.
I buy all my medicines in India in order to avoid dealing with these cartels, including the drug companies. (I pay roughly 1% of the U.S. price for drugs manufactured by the same U.S. company when I buy in India.)
Back to the main subject of the thread, I think the reasons for our relative decline include many factors as all of you have identified. But at its core is the age-old one of economics. Free and competitive markets will allow the U.S. to perform to its full potential. Vested interests such as unions, corporate lobbyists, etc. will do their best prevent that from happening for their own selfish reasons. It is up to the voters to stand up against these anti-American forces and I do not see that happening enough.
I do think the public education system is just like most things in life, you get out what you put in. If your kid gives the teacher a hard time or doesn't participate for 12 years your kid's education will suffer.
Education is sometimes uncomfortable, even for adults. I dislike sitting through classes as much as anyone else but sometimes it needs to be done. Overall, we, as a county, have decided we want the easy way out. We seek the lease resistance and most comfort. We learn our lessons and teach our kids to seek the same thing. If our kids are unhappy or uncomfortable we rush to comfort and protect them.
The education system does work in some places and cases. My school turns out hundreds of literate, capable people a year.
I do agree there are problems. Politicians making laws for change based on sound bites to further their political career. Lazy teachers that are protected by unions. Combative, disinterested, overworked parents. Absent dads. Aggressive administrators that only want to further their careers at the expense of everyone. There is enough blame to go around. What are solutions?
My solution, I chose to go to work in a needy school district last year. I work with a great group of pros. I love my kids and they do well. I do have parents that don';t like me and are mad at me. Can't please everyone.
LA Times is running a series on teachers' abilities differing in schools. The Teachers Union doesn't like that and is urging a boycott of the Times! Exactly what I was posting.
Another note of tenure. The article states that the City has used 3.8 million dollars to try to get rid of 7 BAD teachers. Only FOUR were removed in last TEN years. Unions use every legal strategy to keep all teachers in tenured positions. Bad situation. Rich
Unions as a whole are a big reason why this country is in a decline.
Teachers Unions may be the worst. There is no standard for teacher's performance to measured! Teacher's love to complain about a standardized test at the beginning and end of each school year to measure what kids have learned. Which I understand, standardized testing is not the best way to see if kids have really learned anything. But that is not why they are against it. They want no unit of measure of their performance. Imagine a job where no one can tell if you are doing well or not.
Without a measure of performance, there is no way that a teacher can ever be fired, unless they violate a code of conduct, by getting a DUI or acting inappropriate with students. Sometimes, once a teacher gets tenure, a DUI won't even get them fired. In my area, a teacher got into a drunk driving accident and killed a student..he was suspended without pay, DURING THE SUMMER, and then reinstated in time for the school year.
As I mentioned before, the only way that education will really ever change is if it is privatized. Schools will have a much better handle on the quality of teachers and since parents will be paying for the education, they will demand the best quality for their money, thereby eliminating the substandard teachers. I know this will never happen.
I disagree that we have a pure choice system now. The choice you are describing would force parents to move as their children age throughout the system. What happens if you have multiple children and some are in good schools and some are in bad schools? Basing the educational purchase on forced distribution that is tied to one's address is an inefficient model. It is also inefficient to force people to incur transaction and moving costs every few years to give teachers cushy jobs where they get paid regardless of performance.
Furthermore, the current system encourages gerrymandering of school districts where the high tax resources go to pay for the best teachers and the low tax resources go to pay for teachers that can barely spell. That is diametrically opposed to a meritocracy to protect bureaucrat's jobs.
Perhaps some parents don't want to do the research. I would argue that many of these same parents realize that they can't afford to purchase a ticket into the better schools and are "facing reality."
Are you saying that a system with unions is good or isn't? This is unclear to me from what you posted.
All of the above are great comments, and I agree with them. I'd like to come at this from a different angle.
If you look at most surveys like this, what they are really looking at is "How involved is the national government in running the XXXX system?" In that light, we are always going to rank behind socialist and quasi-socialist systems such as Cuba and European government simply due to the bias in the question.
That's not to say that our system can't be improved -- it absolutely can. It's important, however, to also look at questioner bias when reading these surveys.
Steve -
What are you basing that assertion on?
Taking a look at the detailed criteria and weighting used in the study linked in the original post, there are very few criteria that are directly related to socialistic practices of the government.
If you actually looked at the criteria and came to that determination, perhaps you can be more specific about which of the criteria you're referring to?
Where I'm at we don't have education problems because of unions, but because of:
1) an inefficient, self-serving and PC bureaucracy, and
2) totally irresponsible parents.
My significant other quit teaching because of this, as eventually do most everyone else who can, leaving behind a system staffed with teachers TOO INCOMPETENT to find any other work!
Would tend to agree with Mark. Parents allow such poor behavior that I certainly wouldn't want to be a teacher and try to make up for what the parents were too lazy to teach their kids in the first 5 years.
Then again I am not cut out to be a teacher.
Sam, that reminds me of a conversation a friend of mine had with the head of a local school district over lunch earlier this year. They were talking about the bad wrap that the schools get from the community when students do crazy things like Columbine. I thought he made a great point when he said that the last time he checked, none of his schools sold guns, knives, drugs, etc.... Basically parents/communities get outraged and misplace their anger on the schools. The problem is in the home, imo.
I loved the response by an earlier poster who took the next logical step from identifying a problem and is taking action to fix it. Kudo's to you. I try to do my part by mentoring teenage boys at a correctional facility each week.
Also, I am a school teacher and don't consider it to be a cushy job. If you think it's cushy take a few weeks and come on in and join me. I'll be glad to share the cush that is there. LOL