401k and Roth IRA to buy rentals

401k and Roth IRA to buy rentals

San Ramon, CA · Member since 2019 · 7 posts · 1 vote

Hey everyone, I'm trying to see if anyone could help me figure out if I'm able to use my 401k and Roth IRA to buy rental properties. I've tried to google these topics but didn't get much information. I'm 24 and have about 12k in my 401k and about 20k in my Roth IRA. I plan to grow a real estate portfolio in the future to the point where I can support myself comfortably throughout my entire life and leave my day job. With this being said, I don't see myself keeping a 401k because I don't plan on being employed by a company until retirement age. I also don't receive a match on my contributions so I'd like to put them to better use between now and age 60. Does anyone know if I can take out my 401k funds even though I'm still working for this company? I read some stuff online saying I'd have to leave the company to cash it out? Is this true? I'd also like to know if it's possible to use a portion (not all) of my Roth IRA to buy rental properties because I know it's possible to use a Roth IRA for a primary residence. Thank you in advance for any help!

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Investor · Hawaiian Gardens, CA · Member since 2015 · 308 posts · 386 votes
6y

Hey Brian,

You can take 401k LOAN out and use for whatever you want. Withdrawal, you'll be taxed and penalized unless you have a "hardship". Currently under CARES act you can withdraw from your 401k with no taxes/penalties if you state you've been affected by covid. You'll still be taxed at your income rate.

ROTH IRA you can always take out your contributions at any time without tax or penalties. However, you'll be taxed/penalized for withdrawals of any EARNINGS your contributions made. (ex. your 10k investment made 1k, you can withdraw 10k penalty free, 1k will be taxed/penalized.)

Disclaimer: I'm not a tax person, CPA, or financial advisor. Just someone who has done both these things before and went through the process.

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  • Investor · Hawaiian Gardens, CA · Member since 2015 · 308 posts · 386 votes
    6y

    Hey Brian,

    You can take 401k LOAN out and use for whatever you want. Withdrawal, you'll be taxed and penalized unless you have a "hardship". Currently under CARES act you can withdraw from your 401k with no taxes/penalties if you state you've been affected by covid. You'll still be taxed at your income rate.

    ROTH IRA you can always take out your contributions at any time without tax or penalties. However, you'll be taxed/penalized for withdrawals of any EARNINGS your contributions made. (ex. your 10k investment made 1k, you can withdraw 10k penalty free, 1k will be taxed/penalized.)

    Disclaimer: I'm not a tax person, CPA, or financial advisor. Just someone who has done both these things before and went through the process.

  • San Ramon, CA · Member since 2019 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    Thanks @Derrick Dill! I might look into taking out a loan, I just don't like the idea of having to worry about paying it back. I figured that my 401k would be taxed at retirement anyway and we know that our tax bracket is normally higher later in life. I don't mind having to pay the taxes now since I don't really plan to hold my 401k until age 60. The only drawback I really see is the penalty which I feel that I could make up through strategic real estate investments. That's helpful to know about withdrawing from my Roth IRA, I didn't know I could do take out my contributions for any reason. Anyone else want to share their opinion?

  • Scott JensenPro Member
    Financial Advisor · Blaine, MN · Member since 2014 · 478 posts · 387 votes
    6y

    @Brian Henderson I agree with @Derrick Dill above. Another option with the 401(k) if you don't need the money right away is to convert it to a Roth IRA. After 5 years you can take the amount you converted from the 401(k) out as a withdrawal without tax or penalty. There's income tax due when you do the conversion (assuming your 401(k) is pre-tax).

  • Nicholas AiolaBusiness Member
    CPA & Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Brian Henderson In order to invest in alternative assets like real estate within your retirement vehicles, they will need to be self-directed. You cannot invest in real estate via your run-of-the-mill retirement plan at work or a regular traditional or Roth IRA.

    You can roll funds over between retirement plans (depending on your current employment status in some cases) but there may be tax consequences if you're rolling over a pre-tax account into a Roth vehicle.

    Also, if you envision leaving the workforce in the future, you can still have a 401(k) - provided that you have self-employment income, you can establish a Solo 401(k) or a similar QRP. This will be easy if you're in a position to restructure income from your investments.

    My advice would be to continue to educate yourself on self-directed retirement accounts (there are a lot of traps) and whether or not the buy and hold strategy is the best option within these vehicles - my professional opinion is generally no, for a handful of reasons, but each scenario is different and requires unique analysis.

    Best of luck!

    Aiola CPA, PLLC551 Reviews
  • Real Estate Syndicator · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2018 · 903 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Hi @Brian Henderson. So both are possible, somewhat. In normal circumstances, given you are still with the company, the 401k would only be available for a loan of 50% the amount in the 401k without some kind of penalty. Currently however, with the Cares Act, there are some additional options here.

    The changes in brief for the 401k:
    * Loans - now up to $100,000 or 100% of your balance, whichever is less and you don't have to make a payment until 2021 then 5 years to repay from then. 
    * Disbursement - you can take up to $100,000 of your account out without the 10% penalty if under age 59 ½ - You can then pay the tax due over 3 years, splitting the 100k disbursement equally over 3 years, OR pay it back over 3 years and no tax or penalty.

    The Roth IRA, is great. I did something similar for my first investment and used Roth contributions to invest into Real Estate. Note : The pulled out contributions are now just cash, meaning it is on you to put it back into the Roth. There is no reinvestment back into the ROTH automatically.

    I would also say, the 401k and ROTH are built for long term plans. It's good to both have a short and long term plan. Recommend continuing to diversify and ensure you have a "growing" retirement plan regardless if you plan on being with a company or not. Just my two cents though!

  • Retirement Accounts Attorney · Southfield, MI · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Brian Henderson

    Please see the following regarding Considerations re Investing in Real Estate & Considerations re Choosing a Solo 401k provider:

    General Considerations Re Investing Retirement Funds in Real Estate:

    1. If you purchase via an IRA (as opposed to a 401k), you will need to open an IRA account at a specialty trust company that allows for investments in real estate. Unless you invest via an LLC owned by the IRA, you will not have checkbook control over the funds which means you need to run transactions (e.g. income, expenses, etc.) through the trust company who will need time to process the transactions and generally charge fees for each transaction. On the other hand, keep in mind that there are costs associated with maintaining an LLC (such as the $800 annual franchise tax in California).

    2. If you are self-employed with no employees, you can set up a Solo 401k through a 401k provider which allows for investing in real estate. In that case, you can simply have the account at a bank or brokerage where you will have direct checkbook control.

    3. In either case, all of the income and expenses will need to flow in and out of the retirement account.

    4. In either case and if you will use debt to acquire the real estate, it must be non-recourse financing. See more at the following link: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/9552/70408-ira... If debt-financed real estate is acquired via an IRA, any income attributable to such investment will generally be subject to unrelated debt finance income tax.

    5. In either case, you can't live on the property or otherwise use it for personal use.

    6. In either case, you can't work on the property as it must be a passive investment (e.g. you must hire someone to fix the toilet and can't pay the expense with non-retirement funds).

    7. In either case, you must purchase/sell real estate from/to an unrelated person and the real estate can't be titled in your name personally (e.g. in the case of the 401k, it would be titled in the name of the 401k and you would sign as trustee of the 401k).

    8. In either case, you should verify that you are eligible to transfer the funds from your existing retirement account (e.g. if the funds are in your current employer 401k, you will likely not be able to transfer until you quit your job).

    Considerations in Setting up a Solo 401k to invest in real estate:

    1. First, you must be eligible to set up a Solo 401k. In order to be eligible, you must be self-employed (e.g. providing goods and/or services through your personal effort), reporting self-employment activity on your taxes (e.g. Schedule C if you a sole proprietor) & you do not have any w-2 employees working for your self-employed business or otherwise.

    2. If you are self-employed with no employees, you can set up a Solo 401k through a 401k provider which allows for investing in real estate. In that case, you can simply have the account at a bank or brokerage where you will have direct checkbook control.

    3. All of the income and expenses will need to flow in and out of the retirement account.

    4. If you will you debt to acquire the real estate, it must be non-recourse financing. See more at the following link: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/9552/70408-ira...

    5. You can't live on the property or otherwise use it for personal use.

    6. You can't work on the property as it must be a passive investment (e.g. you must hire someone to fix the toilet and can't pay the expense with non-retirement funds).

    7. You must purchase/sell real estate from/to an unrelated person and the real estate can't be titled in your name personally (e.g. in the case of the 401k, it would be titled in the name of the 401k and you would sign as trustee of the 401k).

    8. You should verify that you are eligible to transfer the funds from your existing retirement account (e.g. if the funds are in your current employer 401k, you will likely not be able to transfer until you quit your job).

    Considerations in Choosing a Solo 401k Provider:

    1. Confirm that the provider has a pristine reputation (e.g. Better Business Bureau reviews, etc.).

    2. You may wish to confirm that the new 401k provider has experience with the particular investments in which you intend to invest your retirement funds as you very likely will have questions in terms of the mechanics (e.g. how do you invest in real estate, etc.).

    3. You may wish to confirm that the new 401k provider will handle the ongoing compliance support such as any required 5500 filing (e.g. 5500-ez for a one-participant plan with assets in excess of $250,000), any required tax reporting (e.g. 1099-r in the event of a distribution or in-plan Roth conversion), mandatory plan updates and amendments, etc.

    4. If you might take a 401k loan, you may wish to confirm that the new 401k provider will prepare the required 401k participant loan documents.

    Here are some issues to consider in choosing an Self-directed IRA provider:

    1. In order to have checkbook control, the IRA account will need to be at a trust company that will allow the IRA to invest in an LLC (where you will be the manager and your IRA will be member - an as manager you will have checkbook access to the LLC bank account). Therefore, you will want to confirm that the trust company allows for investing in an LLC and the associated fees and minimum balance that applies to the IRA account.

    2. Confirm that the IRA LLC provider will prepare all of the documents needed to not only form the LLC (articles of organization, SS-4 to obtain an EIN) but also the documents needed by the trust company to process the investment of IRA funds in the LLC.

    3. Confirm that the provider has experience with the particular investments in which you intend to invest your retirement funds as you very likely will have questions in terms of the mechanics (e.g. how do you invest in real estate, etc.).

    4. Confirm that the provider has a pristine reputation (e.g. Better Business Bureau reviews, etc.).

    5. In addition, if you are self-employed with no full-time employees you may wish to consider opening a Solo 401k instead of a self-directed IRA as it has several advantages over an IRA LLC such as much higher contribution limits, direct checkbook control (i.e. no need to have the account at a specialty trust company), ability to take a 401k loan, exclusion from unrelated debt finance income tax with respect to investment in real estate acquired with non-recourse financing, etc.

    In addition, please note if you purchase debt-financed real estate with your IRA, unrelated debt finance income tax should apply to the income attributable to debt-financed real estate held by your IRA. Of course, you will want to review your specific situation with your tax advisor.

  • Carl FischerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Ambler, PA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Brian Henderson there's a lot of useful information here. To reiterate the point made by @Nicholas Aiola, a self-directed IRA is required in order for you to be able to make investments in alternative assets with your IRA or 401(k). These IRAs, of course, must be held by an IRS-approved third-party administrator. There are many custodians and administrators out there. BiggerPockets provides a list of self-directed IRA custodians for you to reference on this site. You can check out that list here. Things to consider when choosing a SDIRA custodian are customer service, knowledge, experience, and processing speeds, as they will be integral to ensuring that the investments you have chosen to self-direct are facilitated efficiently. Real estate is one of the most popular alternative investment types; in addition to rental properties, you can invest in commercial, residential, or raw and improved land with your IRA.

    It is a shame that your current company does not have a match policy for your contributions, but it is great that you are considering your options for savings now while you're young. In addition to the points made above, make sure you talk to a plan administrator about inservice rollovers or a loans from your current 401(k) if you are still employed with the company. Not all plans allow inservice rollovers or loans to participants. 

    A self-directed Roth IRA is always a great idea. As @Chris Levarek said, it is a great vehicle for growing long-term retirement wealth. You pay taxes up front on your contributions, and all that rental income, and the profit from sales of your properties years down the line, will flow into your IRA tax-free. Consult with your accountant or financial advisor to see if now is a good time to open a self-directed Roth IRA. We have seen a spike in Roth conversions this year due to the affects of COVID-19 on people's finances.  If you have any further questions, I would be happy to connect.

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