Subject-To Deals Risky?

Subject-To Deals Risky?

Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2023 · 161 posts · 52 votes

Hi everyone,

I recently got contacted by an investor who is interested in doing a "subject to" deal on a condo I own. The proposal sounds promising, and I wanted to reach out to see if anyone here has experience with this type of arrangement.

The investor has offered to give me $10,000 upfront, which seems to indicate that he has some skin in the game. Additionally, he mentioned that a lawyer would be involved in the transaction, which provides some reassurance. However, I'm still cautious and want to ensure I'm not missing any critical details.

Has anyone here done a subject-to deal before? How did it go, and what should I watch out for? Also, with the investor putting down $10k upfront, does this typically mean they're more likely to keep up with the mortgage payments?

I'd appreciate any insights, advice, or experiences you can share. Thanks in advance for your help!

Best,

Dylan 

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Don KonipolBusiness Member
Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Corby Goade:

I don't like em. 

If you aren't in financial distress, what is the benefit to you, as the seller? To save yourself from foreclosure, it might be an option, but otherwise the buyer gets all of the benefits with very little risk. There's a reason this is the preferred method for new buyers with little to no capital. 

I have sold subject to a number of times, and I want suffering any financial distress.  Here were some of the benefits to me as a seller of selling sub to

1. By offering sub to financing, you increase the universe of potential buyers to include those unable or unwilling to obtain a new loan.  This results in the ability to obtain a greater price than a cash transaction would.

2. If the loan on the property is a significantly below the current interest rate, and the buyer also saves origination fees and costs, this enables the seller to demand a higher price while the buyer still obtains his ROI objectives

3. If the seller does a “wrap” mortgage and the wrap is for more than the interest rate on the underlying mortgage, the seller retains the differential as monthly net and may be able to create a note with a high double digit yield.

4. Many properties, especially commercial properties, take 60 days or more to go through financing underwriting.  A sub  to transaction can be completed in 3-10 days.  If selling quickly is important to the seller, this is a doable alternative.

5. Some properties are in a position either through disrepair or tenant vacancies that they simply can not be financed at anything close to a reasonable interest rate.  A sub to sale may be the only way to sell such property.  Even if a cash buyer can be found the cash value may be so low that the seller would have to bring a high amount of cash to closing to make up the shortfall amount needed to payoff the mortgage loan. 

6. For a variety of reasons, it may be necessary for a property owner to no longer hold legal title to a property or have an entity he controls hold title.  Sub to allows title to be “parked” in the name of a trusted friend or family member without that person having to obtain a loan or have legal liability for that loan.  

7. A buyer may be planning to purchase the subject property for cash when a liquidity event he’s anticipating occurs.  Selling to him sub to allows the seller to get out of a property sooner rather than later (if that’s what’s desired) and have the loan paid off when the buyer has his liquidity event. 

doing any CREATIVE  real estate deal SUCCESSFULLY requires the knowledge, experience and capital to be able to set up the transaction properly, with safeguards in place, and structure the transaction so both parties have positive reinforcement to “make it work”.  It also requires the ability to evaluate the party on the other side of the transaction, making judgements that go far beyond credit score or balance sheets.  If you don’t possess, or don’t YET possess those abilities, then stay away from creative transactions, unless you employ someone who does have those abilities to respresent you. 

Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
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  • Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    @Dylan Speer, subject-to deals aren't really risky because I believe the seller's are typically already in a really bad position with very little to lose.

    For example, a seller headed to foreclosure who doesn't have enough equity to sell the property and may commissions and closing costs. They can get out of the house and avoid the foreclosure and the buyer can get a decent deal by taking control of a good loan at a lower rate than they can get at the moment.

    For you as a seller, what are you getting from this deal that you couldn't get from a deal with a newly financed mortgage?

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2023 · 161 posts · 52 votes
    2y

    No no no. The loan would stay in my name. The buyer would get the deed and wouldn't be on the note. 

    Too risky. 

  • Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:

    No no no. The loan would stay in my name. The buyer would get the deed and wouldn't be on the note. 

    Too risky. 


    If you are headed to foreclosure, then you would have little to lose! So, for someone in that position not all that risky. Otherwise yes a potential headache to say the least.

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2023 · 161 posts · 52 votes
    2y

    Not headed to foreclosure. Just want to get rid of this place.

  • Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:

    Not headed to foreclosure. Just want to get rid of this place.

    Then why not sell it on the open market to a traditional buyer? 
  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2023 · 161 posts · 52 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:

    Not headed to foreclosure. Just want to get rid of this place.

    Then why not sell it on the open market to a traditional buyer? 

     I don't think I'll be able to sell it for what I'd need to in order to break even. I am opposed to renting it when renovations are done because I'll lose money every month between what renter gives me and what mortgage is. That's probably what will have to happen until I can sell. I bought it at the peak of the market. 

  • Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:
    Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:

    Not headed to foreclosure. Just want to get rid of this place.

    Then why not sell it on the open market to a traditional buyer? 

     I don't think I'll be able to sell it for what I'd need to in order to break even. I am opposed to renting it when renovations are done because I'll lose money every month between what renter gives me and what mortgage is. That's probably what will have to happen until I can sell. I bought it at the peak of the market. 


    A few thoughts on that plan:

    1. Its harder to sell a house with a tenant in place. Tenants want a lease which ties the property up from selling to an owner occupant. Tenants make it difficult to show. Tenants are often messy and the house doesn't show as well.

    2. You get a bit of a premium on a fresh like-new remodel that you lose when a tenant has been living there using things and making them not new anymore.

    3. If the loss is manageable, you might consider taking the loss and moving on. If you could buy this deal from yourself today, would you buy it? If not, then why would you keep it rather than get out of it and into something you can do better with going forward.

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2023 · 161 posts · 52 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:
    Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:

    Not headed to foreclosure. Just want to get rid of this place.

    Then why not sell it on the open market to a traditional buyer? 

     I don't think I'll be able to sell it for what I'd need to in order to break even. I am opposed to renting it when renovations are done because I'll lose money every month between what renter gives me and what mortgage is. That's probably what will have to happen until I can sell. I bought it at the peak of the market. 

    1 - Understood

    2 - Understood, will try to list when renovations are almost done in November hoping I can get some offers in. 

    3 - "Taking the loss" is only an option under the assumption that I actually get an offer worth taking. I'd consider writing the bank a check for a couple grand but surely won't for $10k or more. This is a $250,000 place so unless rates really come down soon (which they won't), that buyer is probably not going to be biting. Unless an investor wants this, which anyone in their right mind wouldn't.  

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:

    Hi everyone,

    I recently got contacted by an investor who is interested in doing a "subject to" deal on a condo I own. The proposal sounds promising, and I wanted to reach out to see if anyone here has experience with this type of arrangement.

    The investor has offered to give me $10,000 upfront, which seems to indicate that he has some skin in the game. Additionally, he mentioned that a lawyer would be involved in the transaction, which provides some reassurance. However, I'm still cautious and want to ensure I'm not missing any critical details.

    Has anyone here done a subject-to deal before? How did it go, and what should I watch out for? Also, with the investor putting down $10k upfront, does this typically mean they're more likely to keep up with the mortgage payments?

    I'd appreciate any insights, advice, or experiences you can share. Thanks in advance for your help!

    Best,

    Dylan 

    IMO re the $10k to seller being actual skin in the game... it depends on the current or potential rent, the type of lender, and the time and expense it takes to foreclose in the jurisdiction where the property is located.

    Having an attorney involved with the sub-to closing is irrelevant.

    If I was considering this realistically I would assume I am accepting $10k to have my credit trashed.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

    @Dylan Speer, subject-to deals aren't really risky because I believe the seller's are typically already in a really bad position with very little to lose.

    For example, a seller headed to foreclosure who doesn't have enough equity to sell the property and may commissions and closing costs. They can get out of the house and avoid the foreclosure and the buyer can get a decent deal by taking control of a good loan at a lower rate than they can get at the moment.

    For you as a seller, what are you getting from this deal that you couldn't get from a deal with a newly financed mortgage?


    ANd they dont care about their credit and make sure their is no deficiency judgement there are bad actors out there that will intentionally not pay the mortgage and rip the rents until the bank forecloses a few years down the line all the while creamting the original sellers credit and frying their nerves and freying their marriage.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Tom Gimer:
    Quote from @Dylan Speer:

    Hi everyone,

    I recently got contacted by an investor who is interested in doing a "subject to" deal on a condo I own. The proposal sounds promising, and I wanted to reach out to see if anyone here has experience with this type of arrangement.

    The investor has offered to give me $10,000 upfront, which seems to indicate that he has some skin in the game. Additionally, he mentioned that a lawyer would be involved in the transaction, which provides some reassurance. However, I'm still cautious and want to ensure I'm not missing any critical details.

    Has anyone here done a subject-to deal before? How did it go, and what should I watch out for? Also, with the investor putting down $10k upfront, does this typically mean they're more likely to keep up with the mortgage payments?

    I'd appreciate any insights, advice, or experiences you can share. Thanks in advance for your help!

    Best,

    Dylan 

    IMO re the $10k to seller being actual skin in the game... it depends on the current or potential rent, the type of lender, and the time and expense it takes to foreclose in the jurisdiction where the property is located.

    Having an attorney involved with the sub-to closing is irrelevant.

    If I was considering this realistically I would assume I am accepting $10k to have my credit trashed.


    Tom the other issue for the seller is lenders with NON owner occ can sue on the note and get a deficiency judgment.. out west in OR WA CA MV AZ and probably a few more purchase money loan for owner occupied no deficiency can be taken.  Thats why in 08 to 2011 you had so many owners in Vegas PHX inland empire just do strategic foreclosure. In addition depending on the lender the person losing the home could get a 1099c which would be treated as ordinary income. So while Sub too works well in some situations  when you have little to no equity its highly risky for our BP member to do this is they care at all about their credit and other issues. Or they could do their own strategic foreclosure stop paying rip the rents as long as you can and hand he keys back you will see lots of this coming up.
  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    You should at least try to sell it on the MLS before selling sub2. There is a lot of risk to the seller in a sub2 transaction. For one, your debt to income ratio will be impacted negatively because this loan will still show up as an expense on your credit report, affecting your ability to get another loan. There is also the big risk of going through foreclosure. Or the buyer could just miss a notice that the loan has been transferred to a new loan servicing company (as they do, loan servicing companies are terrible IME), and miss some payments by accident, again negatively affecting your credit. You won't not be able to buy another property with bad credit (or refinance an existing property, or even rent a property or buy a car). In a worst case scenario the due on sale clause could be called creating a mess for everybody involved and ending up in a lawsuit (no fun IME).

     I would never sell sub2 unless I was really, really desperate. Also most of the people buying properties sub2 these days are wannabe investors who won't be around in 6 months. I wouldn't trust them to make the payments, especially if the property value goes down and they have a bum tenant not paying rent because they mis-managed it and had poor underwriting skills to begin with and realize they messed up and just walk away (what makes it attractive to them if it's not attractive to you?).

    Just put it on the market, price it aggressively and you may even get multiple offers. Entry-level price point properties that are priced well are still selling quickly in Denver. My last listing just got 6 offers and went $75k over-ask (cash, no contingencies). 

  • Investor · Diamond Bar, CA · Member since 2012 · 79 posts · 24 votes
    2y

    @Dylan Speer, I saw your other post with the details. I agree that you would be putting your trust in the hands of the "subject to" buyer to make your mortgage payments. If you put it on the market... With the real estate listing agent, you will not be allowed to sell it for the term of the contract. Make sure the term is something you are comfortable with. Many contracts have a 6-month term (or longer) as default. 

  • Craig SmithPro Member
    Investor · Hixson, TN · Member since 2014 · 25 posts · 6 votes
    2y

    If you do sub to I might be interested in making you an offer depending on location.  The way I set mine up when I SELL owner finance or sub to I have a quit claim deed already signed by the buyer.  If I need to take possession I just record my quit claim deed. (I have only done one deal like this)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Craig Smith:

    If you do sub to I might be interested in making you an offer depending on location.  The way I set mine up when I SELL owner finance or sub to I have a quit claim deed already signed by the buyer.  If I need to take possession I just record my quit claim deed. (I have only done one deal like this)


    its illegal to pre sign quit claim deeds. if someone chanllenged U that would not stand UP
  • Craig SmithPro Member
    Investor · Hixson, TN · Member since 2014 · 25 posts · 6 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Craig Smith:

    If you do sub to I might be interested in making you an offer depending on location.  The way I set mine up when I SELL owner finance or sub to I have a quit claim deed already signed by the buyer.  If I need to take possession I just record my quit claim deed. (I have only done one deal like this)


    its illegal to pre sign quit claim deeds. if someone chanllenged U that would not stand UP

    So the buyer can’t sign a notarized quit claim deed as part of our agreement?  That is inconvenient.  Thanks for the heads up!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Craig Smith:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Craig Smith:

    If you do sub to I might be interested in making you an offer depending on location.  The way I set mine up when I SELL owner finance or sub to I have a quit claim deed already signed by the buyer.  If I need to take possession I just record my quit claim deed. (I have only done one deal like this)


    its illegal to pre sign quit claim deeds. if someone chanllenged U that would not stand UP

    So the buyer can’t sign a notarized quit claim deed as part of our agreement?  That is inconvenient.  Thanks for the heads up!


    not legally.. that precludes the buyers right to a full foreclosure.. Just ask any attorney.. NOT the internet or ANYONE selling how to sub to..
  • Real Estate Agent · Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 53 posts · 33 votes
    2y

    @Dylan Speer , a few thoughts...

    Why not at least try listing it to see what kind of offers you can get from the market?  Is it a low equity situation?

    Does this potential buyer have a track record they can point to?  What's their strategy for the property?  Do they have reserves?  Will they provide their credit report along with their track record?  What's their plan should the lender decide to accelerate the note?

    Why not look for an owner occupant directly rather than going through this person?  You could use a land contract or wrap with said owner occupant and retain more control over the situation and likely get a higher down payment and monthly payment.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Craig Smith:

    If you do sub to I might be interested in making you an offer depending on location.  The way I set mine up when I SELL owner finance or sub to I have a quit claim deed already signed by the buyer.  If I need to take possession I just record my quit claim deed. (I have only done one deal like this)


    its illegal to pre sign quit claim deeds. if someone chanllenged U that would not stand UP
    I agree with your conclusion, Jay... but it's not illegal to pre-sign a quitclaim deed. It's just stupid for anyone involved in the transaction to rely upon it to convey good title at a later date. 
    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Tom Gimer:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Craig Smith:

    If you do sub to I might be interested in making you an offer depending on location.  The way I set mine up when I SELL owner finance or sub to I have a quit claim deed already signed by the buyer.  If I need to take possession I just record my quit claim deed. (I have only done one deal like this)


    its illegal to pre sign quit claim deeds. if someone chanllenged U that would not stand UP
    I agree with your conclusion, Jay... but it's not illegal to pre-sign a quitclaim deed. It's just stupid for anyone involved in the transaction to rely upon it to convey good title at a later date. 

    OK  ... But if brought up to a judge or trier of fact I dont think it will stand up or that you would issue title insurance.
  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Tom Gimer:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Craig Smith:

    If you do sub to I might be interested in making you an offer depending on location.  The way I set mine up when I SELL owner finance or sub to I have a quit claim deed already signed by the buyer.  If I need to take possession I just record my quit claim deed. (I have only done one deal like this)


    its illegal to pre sign quit claim deeds. if someone chanllenged U that would not stand UP
    I agree with your conclusion, Jay... but it's not illegal to pre-sign a quitclaim deed. It's just stupid for anyone involved in the transaction to rely upon it to convey good title at a later date. 

    OK  ... But if brought up to a judge or trier of fact I dont think it will stand up or that you would issue title insurance.

    That's correct. Pocket deeds, pre-signed deeds in lieu and similar cause big problems in the context of title insurance.

    But what I am suggesting here is that a quitclaim deed in particular executed when that party doesn't have good title... grenade. Can't be fixed by various doctrines that govern.

    So essentially, welcome to the lawsuit.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 396 posts · 995 votes
    2y

    The risk with sub2 is the obvious, "is the buyer going to pay as agreed".  There are steps you can take to mitigate this.  

    First, check to see how many deals this person has already done.  If he can't provide a track record dating back several years, that could be a red flag.  If he has been successfully paying other peoples mortgages for several years, there is no immediate indication that his intent is to rip you off.  

    Second, ask to see proof of reserves.  If he has a large stockpile of cash or liquid assets, this can also help mitigate risk.  

    Third, insist on having the loan professionally serviced. This will cost your buyer roughly 20 bucks each month, but its completely worth it. If the loan is serviced in this way, the loan won't count against your DTI after 1 year, should you want to purchase another home later on. In addition, an escrow account can be set up such that the servicing company holds 2-3 months worth of mortgage payments. They will also send you an email status update each month as they pay the bank your mortgage payment. This written confirmation will give you peace of mind knowing that the loan was paid each month, and it also lets you know several months in advance if you are going to have problems because the buyer isn't paying and is therefore depleting the escrow account.

    And lastly, hang onto your 10k deposit and keep it handy.  You can use this to help offset expenses if something bad happens while you begin the process of taking back your house.

    There are certainly risks involved, but you seem to imply that this is likely the best deal that you will get so you need to weight the pros/cons and see if it is a good fit for you.

    The alternative is to ask if instead of doing the deal sub2, if the buyer is willing to buy the home on a wrap.  In this scenario the buyer effectively pays you, and you then turn around and pay the bank.  This makes it easier to take the property back in the event that the buyer stops paying since you can now formally foreclose on him.  However, it is somewhat likely that the buyer won't want to do this, because now it is HIM that is taking the risk that you will pay the bank.  What if he pays you and you simply keep the money?

  • Investor · Member since 2024 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    2y
    I read the extra info you put in the comments about the state of the house. Sounds to me like seller's finance would work better for you. Safer for sure.

    The main risk with Sub2 is that it's mortgage fraud, lenders do sometimes take the house when they find out. The risk is really on the buyer though.
  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    Sounds like a win to me. You tube pace morby testimonials and he shows how this is a win/win for buyer and seller. I’d take the deal.

  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y

    Here's a Preposterously Risky Subject To Deal: 

    Buyer is a NINJA (No Income, No Assets, No Job, No Credit). Buyer has no prayer of buying real estate conventionally, and is a mess with their personal finances. Buyer believes in "Get Rich Quick" ideas that pretend one can build wealth without first sustainably solving the "I spend less than I make" problem. 

    Seller is in desperate, underwater on their house, facing the prospect of foreclosure, and wants to pretend that they are getting something in "getting out" of the situation. Accepts a "above market" offer for Subject-To financing. 

    This is an exceptionally bad idea because both the buyer and seller are ticking time bombs. What, the buyer, who is broke AF, is suddenly going to turn their life around? They are going to run their lives, and this business, where they have little/nothing on the line, professionally, making on time payments for 20-30 years? No way. Only if things go really well in the first few years, and a big old pile of equity accumulates will this work. 

    And the buyer is only half the situation. The other part of this is the seller. The seller, who was about to be foreclosed on with their low interest rate mortgage, is suddenly going to turn around their life? They are going to be responsible, never get into trouble, and avoid Bankruptcy for the next several decades? 

    Both of these people have a 30-50% chance of blowing this situation, at least. Multiply those probabilities by one another, and you have a huge undercurrent of risk ballooning and compounding with each passing month. 

    Note that I am not even mentioning the problems that are starting to be cited by investors once a "wholesaler" gets involved in the deal, or with "Due on Sale" clauses, etc. 

    Now, here's a lower-risk, likely value-add Subject To Deal: 

    Buyer is well capitalized, bringing hundreds of thousands of dollars down. They can buy property any way they want, including with cash, but the low interest rate mortgage on their reasonably lightly levered acquisition is an attractive component of the deal. Buyer knows Seller well and has every reason to trust their ability to behave responsibly over decades.

    Seller is not desperate, but has a ~3% fixed rate loan on the property. Imagine their $500K home with $200K in mortgage left on it. Seller knows buyer or has every reason to trust their integrity. 

    Both parties have the ability, if push comes to shove, to pay off the debt or refinance, if the other party breaches that trust. 

    While this kind of deal does come with some risk, it is very manageable. 

    I might do a deal like the latter. 

    And of course, these are two extremes along a spectrum. 

    I fear the consequences of many doing deals like the former. 

    Which of the two situations is more true to your situation? Where are you and the buyer along this spectrum?

    If the former, you may be trading $10K today for a long-term risk that could crush you at any time. If the latter, you might be... up $10K vs the alternative. Be honest with yourself, and if in doubt, don't do the Subject-To deal.



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