Is Trump University a Scam...?!

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Is Trump University a Scam...?!

Ben Leybovich
Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

So, this is in the news now-days. Here are a few thoughts - feel free to jump in:

I've often said that I think it's kinda naughty when people charge $30,000 for real estate education. My rationale is as follows:

Real estate is as old as dirt. Nothing new has been discovered in a few hundred years, and everything that can be done, has been done...

That said, in my view, educational products are simply well-organized, easy to use manuals. In a world where information is readily available, the thing of most value is TIME, and people spending money on educational products are simply buying something which will shorten the learning curve by presenting the material in a well-organized manner.

Well, how much is fair to charge for that? Is it $3,000 - is it $30,000. I charge $295 for CFFU, and I am glad to help.

The other side of the argument

I attended college at one of the best music schools in the nation, the University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music. It is, and always has been, one of the best in its' space...

While I went for free, since I am so damn talented and good-looking, most kids paid $7,000/year for 4 years. They went in under the pretense that being there, at one of the best schools in the nation, will somehow result in a successful career...

Most of them are, 20 years later, still bouncing on ****!!!

Why - because it takes more than desire + training. It takes talent, which most lack; commitment, which most do not have, and luck!

How is this different from Trump University?

People paid the money, thinking that hanging out with Trump will cause them to become RE success stories. It didn't happen for them any more than for the kids I went to college with - is anyone on BP really surprised by that? 

Did the UC Conservatory of Music scam people by taking their tuition money, yet forgetting to tell them that vast majority has absolutely no chance in hell? Nope - the college tells itself that this "experience will be good for us and will teach us about ourselves..."

Conclusion

Now - am I about to start selling RE education for $30,000? Hell no! It's just not what I am about. But, I also advise everyone to not pursue liberal arts education...

Understand - I hold in much contempt parents and kids pursuing liberal arts education, going tens of thousands of dollars into debt, and then being surprised they can't make a living. I believe it's the fault of our misleading educational system, which exists to feed itself. But, nonetheless, I hold in contempt people who give into that falsehood. To study the violin, get an orchestra gig, and then go on strike because rich donors stop writing checks for your salary - asinine in my view.

More asinine than spending $30,000 on Trump University? no - about the same level of stupid...lol

So - while many are outraged with Trump University, as a representative of that which we call GURU, why are we not outraged with how worthless  (and very expensive) college education has become? Not always, of course. Not all degrees and all colleges, but most are a complete waste - just like a $30,000 guru course...

Thoughts?

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Steve B.
Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y

I believe most people who are attending university shouldn't be.  Historically most Americans didn't go to college, and college was never intrinsic to their success.  After the great society we foisted this proletarian notion of "college for everyone" and the system sold them on the idea that a the college benefit was worth the expense,  this idea became popular in a time when the cost of university was lower than the putative benefit, now the opposite is true  College used to be for the smart and the motivated, and now we have people pursuing unmarketable softball degrees in English, history, and communications that are neither smart nor especially motivated.  Meanwhile we have a dearth of vocationally trained technicians and skilled workers,  which is really the subject matter these "students" should be focusing on.  As a result, we have dumbed down the university experience to make it more accessible to average people; when I look at any engineering textbook from fifty years ago, it's obvious, how much more difficult the curriculum was back then.

I'm pretty pro-USA but in this regard Asia and Europe are way ahead of us,  generally only smart and motivated students attend university's and pursue real degrees.  You can see that our immigrates from these countries have it mostly correct, they send their kids for practical degrees in medicine, engineering, and accounting.  Meanwhile the native born kids are casually studying subjects of questionable value and enjoying a very expensive "college experience."  

 I love it when Bernie Sanders is preaching that hes going to make college "free" for even more people that have no real business being there.

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  • Troy GandeeBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Charleston, SC · Member since 2013 · 794 posts · 454 votes
    10y

    @Ben Leybovich @Jay Hinrichs

    Myself and my Mother spent a small fortune on my philosophy degree, environmental studies minor and english minor from a great liberal arts university in Charleston, SC. While I'll never actually make a dime from philosophy, I did learn logic, abstract thinking, how to systemize anything and generally how to think anything into oblivion. I am very happy that I studied what I did for many reasons. 

    However, I'm now a Realtor/Investor. Those college years are 4 years that I could have spent mastering a craft, honing a skill or building a business. I absolutely think that most of the Gurus are garbage, but it's half the price of going to college and it can kick your career into gear. If you find the right educational organization, it could be invaluable. Even if you don't start making millions, at least it will expand your experience and knowledge base.

    I'm not a success story yet, but so far I've done alright for 27. I badgered @Jay Hinrichs when he was in town just to sit down with him for 10 minutes in the lobby at the airport. It absolutely depends on the person. It's totally subjective.

    I'm not a success story yet, but so far I've done ok for 27. Much of that has been because I jump into things without overwhelming heed and I'm obsessive. I badgered @Jay Hinrichs for two days just to meet him in the lobby at the airport and talk for 10 minutes when he was in town this week. It really just depends on the individual. Like most things, it's subjective. Unfortunately, one thing that my generation does lack is the understanding that attending and getting the "certificate" does not automatically make you successful. Some of that confusion is societal and some of it is just laziness and expectance. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Troy Gandee  it was a pleasure to meet you... hope to connect on a deal in the future. !!!

    I am one of the few that has directly profited from GURU students I was profiting from them before BP was even created..  Not being a Guru but funding the Students deals ... and like anything when I attend those events I know I will be bombarded with newbie questions and things. But I have met many folks that go to those that are already quite well off and they are curious.. they can cut a 30k check like we go to dinner... So for them they look at it as time is money and .. like anything not all info is germane or good but not all is bad or terrible.. same with BP not all is good or germane especially when it comes to the controversial subjects. But much of it is very good and free.

    There is just no easy way to RE rich's you must put your self out there work hard and work yourself up the ladder.. and its very much market driven when it comes to certain activities. Like wholesaling if you in the markets were there are literally thousands of derelict homes and tired landlords and owners its much easier to wholesale there than in Hot markets with with no excess inventory.. there is always deals even in the most expensive areas like SF  Honolulu NYC WA DC etc.. but its not like the rust belt and mid west were bar to entry is quite low as well as home prices.

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  • Curtis Steineke
    Homeowner · Davenport IA · Member since 2014 · 24 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    Lots of discussion on here about smart and going to school, just because you can perform a technical skill, does not mean that you are limited in your intelligence.  Put a welding torch in the college educated kids hand and lets see him repair a bridge or pipe fitting, now who looks smart.  

    For an interesting perspective on education, take a look at what Ken Robinson has to say.

    https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms

     One thing I have noticed when it comes to real estate, the people on TV make it look easy, maybe it is depending on your skill set.  Yet I see on here and in other forums, books etc, stories of people who got in over their head.  Regardless to what business you are in, making uninformed decisions can be painful.   The challenge is understanding how to make all this real estate investing work.   Whether its worth paying someone guru or not, I cant say, never took one of their courses.  I think taking 30-40k and invest that money in real estate and try working with a good quality mentor would pay more dividends but that's my opinion.
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  • David Nolan
    Professional Property Investor · Brisbane, Queensland · Member since 2015 · 165 posts · 160 votes
    10y

    Education is the thing people think they need to get to some place they think they want to go only to find out that what they really want is different when they get there, and then they need to get a different education to get what they now want and get away from where they are and so the cycle goes. I wonder what percentage of graduates succeed in the career they first chose by getting that education? My guess is not too many and I include myself in that category. Why? Because the individual is following a vision of themselves that will change with time, or perhaps a fad or someone else's dream for them. True vision and desire lead to a lifetime of concentrated effort and dedication in the filed of our dreams. All the greats in every field of endeavour have a passion for what they do, not just an education. 

    People will pay whatever price is asked for whatever they perceive as value for money based on their CURRENT driver of desire. Sustainable or not. People like Trump and other educators simply charge what they feel is value for what they offer. We do not have to agree with that, it is just a fact. Trump perceives his brand as being exclusive and expensive and prices accordingly. It is his customer's choice to agree with that value or not. @Ben Leybovich charges what he perceives as value for his training and so it goes. There is no right or wrong it is just a matter of people's perception of values that dictates what we will pay for any one good or service.

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  • Account Closed
    Real Estate Agent · Wesley Chapel, FL · Member since 2016 · 153 posts · 38 votes
    10y

    @Thomas Fosnaugh LOL! I totally agree with you! 

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  • Ben Leybovich
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    It seems that most discussions I start are received as polarizing, with folks either agreeing passionately, or disagreeing equally passionately.

    This is not on accident...lol

    It seems that I may have taught some folks for free that which Trump charges $30,000 for. This is really not hard: 

    Understand Athos - Understand Pathos - Logos will take care of itself :)

    1Reply
  • Nick Taskani
    Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2015 · 23 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    This is an absurd argument.   You pick your own major, the university does not.  If you choose to major in Bulgarian literature, or, ahem...violin, then guess what?  You likely won't have a job after you graduate.  But if you choose your major wisely, and supplement it with good electives that can enrich your education, then college can not only make you successful financially but also make you a more well-rounded educated person.    My best years were in college, I enjoyed my classes, and I picked a major that has made me good money (even though it's a lot of work and I can't wait to stop doing it...which is why I'm getting into real estate!).   Most employers these days look for a college education.  To compare college education in any way shape or form to "Trump University" is almost as absurd as imagining this Trump sleaze ball running our country.  

    Donald Trump is like an infected pimple on one's ***.  A sleaze ball.  These guys (Kiyosaki is also on same boat but not as sleazy) prey on the less intelligent.  Trump is a classic narcissist.   In fact a psychologist suggested that he has such a classic case of narcissistic personality disorder that he may use him as a teaching example in his courses.  

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  • Jason V.
    Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2016 · 477 posts · 426 votes
    10y

    @David Nolan I can't find it now, but I did the math on this once during another conversation like this: it ends up being around 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 people who actually find work in the field they started going to college for. I think if High School Guidance Counselors and Universities advertised this fact, things might be a little different. 

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  • Chris Martin
    Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Not that facts matter, this thread is full of subjective views, but it sounds like many people don't believe the government statistics that show earnings and unemployment are related to educational attainment. Chart is from http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

    Regarding "All I can speak of is my own personal experience, which was same as so many other people's. My parents told me to pursue that which I was good at, and the money would follow." Sounds like the 'poor dad' mindset. You just needed a 'rich dad' like Kiyosaki had;)

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  • Ben Leybovich
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chris Martin:

    Not that facts matter, this thread is full of subjective views, but it sounds like many people don't believe the government statistics that show earnings and unemployment are related to educational attainment. Chart is from http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

    Regarding "All I can speak of is my own personal experience, which was same as so many other people's. My parents told me to pursue that which I was good at, and the money would follow." Sounds like the 'poor dad' mindset. You just needed a 'rich dad' like Kiyosaki had;)

     OK - I'll bite. So that's $1600/moth for a doctorate degree. Back out 40% for taxes, and let's just be really nice and say $1,000/week take-home. Understanding that the 8 years + it took to achieve that doctorate would have cost no less than $80,000, and more likely $120,000+, the take-home of $4,000 month doesn't necessarily look that sexy...what do ya say, Chris? 

    And I hope the unemployment is 0 for those people - how the hell will they pay their loans back otherwise...LOL 

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  • Jason V.
    Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2016 · 477 posts · 426 votes
    10y

    @Chris Martin "Note: Data are for persons 25 and over. Earnings are for full-time wage and salary workers."

    If that's not a skewed selection in favor of college than I'm not sure what is. What about recent graduates? What percentage of recent graduates are unemployed/underemployed? Newsweek says almost 40% of the total unempoyment in the US is recent college graduates.

    Where do skilled tradespeople fall on this chart? Google 'Skilled Trades v. College' and you'll get about a million results of why it can be a much, much better decision than college - especially right now when a college degree is the new no-doc mortgage. 

    Even among college grads, all things are not equal. If someone graduates with an engineering degree from a state school, goes to work and starts investing and saving for retirement, they'll be much, much further ahead than someone who has to go to school for another 3-5 years for a Master's/Doctorate. And an engineer with 3-5 years experience will make as much or more than many Master's or Doctorate Degrees, at much lower cost. Is it worth spending an extra $100,000 now to make an extra $200,000 over the course of your career? Opportunity costs are HUGE in this phase of life. 

    And the big tech companies are already moving away from using a college degree as a useful metric for hiring applicants - heard of 'Make School'? My company will hire competent, trainable people and teach them what they want them to know, rather than hiring people with a degree in the field. Why? Ever read 'E-Myth'? 

    Traditional higher education is a bubble, and lots of folks think it doesn't have much time left. Law Schools in particular have been hard hit because of a lack of job prospects. Enrollment is down 20% from 2010. Couple this with the rise of accredited online programs that are a tenth the cost of a traditional education, and I think this particular market is due for a big correction. Or someone makes it "free," the costs go through the roof, and the value of the finished product goes even lower. Look at France and Spain if you need a perfect example of what a disaster that system turns into. 

    I'll say it again: if you have reasonable goals, have run the numbers, or just flat out NEED a college degree to work in the field you're DESTINED to work in (anyone else remember being 18? I do. HA!) then go to college. But college is about the worst place in the world to become more 'well-rounded' or 'find yourself' - bad paying jobs are much, much better at that. 

    But now we're miles away from College v. Paid Expert Education  - The most important take away is that they're pretty much the same thing: both can be a good deal or a bad deal. It's the person who makes the difference. 

    *Edit: Again, Ben beat me to the punch, and was more concise. I should probably just give up and leave this to the experts.*

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  • Chris Martin
    Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I say the chart speaks for itself.

    You can make up anything and any numbers you want. People in the 39.6% tax bracket pay 28.5% in actuality when analyzing 147,351,299 returns. Source: https://www.irs.gov/uac/SOI-Tax-Stats-Individual-Statistical-Tables-by-Tax-Rate-and-Income-Percentile

    $1600 * 52 * 71.5% = $59,488. Take home pay.

    For the 2016-2017 academic year, the total cost of full-time attendance to UNC-CH for undergraduates is estimated to be $24,898 for North Carolina residents.

    So if this education was a house, it would be $100K purchase price with a return of $59,488 per year for your lifetime. Leveraged or not, I'll take that deal.

    And for the record, Ben's analysis (per prior post) is that this is a bad investment.

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  • Jason V.
    Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2016 · 477 posts · 426 votes
    10y

    @Chris Martin And what if you could get the exact same return, but with a purchase price that was only $25,000-$50,000? What about $10,000? Would that be a better deal? 

    My wife has an Associate's Degree in Nursing, works as an RN, makes more per hour than I do with a 4 year engineering degree and 7 years experience, got hired before she graduated and started work with 5 weeks of vacation - something I will probably never get. She paid less than $7,000 in total for her Associate's degree, which took two years at a local community college that has a 97% pass rate for the NCLEX and a 100% job placement rate for graduates. If she had gotten a Bachelor's from a $35,000/year school instead, she might make ten cents an hour more. Maybe. 

    What if you could get paid (as an apprentice) for your training, instead of paying for an education, and make the same money in the same time? My first 3-4 years as an engineer I (deservedly) made less money than the tradesmen I worked with. They didn't have degrees - they got paid on the job to learn. 

    Moral of the story? Do your research and make smart decisions based on what you want to do with your life. I joke that I should've just been a nurse, but the truth is that would make me miserable no matter how much vacation I got, or how much I got paid. 

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  • Chris Martin
    Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Jason, you are making my point. I am glad for you and your wife.

    An Associate's Degree is still a degree. The degree opens doors. And Associate's Degree is one of those green bars in the chart. Regarding "If she had gotten a Bachelor's from a $35,000/year school instead, she might make ten cents an hour more." Well, statistically speaking, people with a BS will make more than your $4/week ($0.10/hr) over a person with an Associate's Degree. The numbers are averages. Clearly you and your wife can beat the averages. But like Ben, you can make up anything and any numbers ($0.10) you want.

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  • Jason V.
    Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2016 · 477 posts · 426 votes
    10y

    Right - I don't think we're too far apart, I just think there is an absolutely critical distinction between a 7,000 dollar degree worth 50k+ a year and a 100,000 dollar degree that won't get you a job, but makes you "well-rounded." 

    That distinction is as important as the one between scam gurus and the guys offering a real RE education for a reasonable price. 

    And Ben deliberately makes it a difficult conversation, because...well, I'm not really sure why. Maybe he just likes causing trouble? (And hopefully he knows I'm kidding.)

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  • Billy Smith
    Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 716 posts · 313 votes
    10y

    Great topic last current USA debt for student loans was 1 trillion.I may self pushed my children hard in high school to prep for state college,my son did wrestling at a high level daughter soccer at a high level .I do think a balance is needed not just studying like Japan and other SE Asian countries.

    My son is study Electrical Engineering ,my daughter Industrial Engineering .We worked hard to get a good study habit out of the children ,my heroes were not sport stars I did like sports,fishing ,hunting but not like it was huge deal just fun a BALANCE .I like Einstein talked a lot about science ,math etc. I told them it was cool to be smart being called a geek should be a badge of honor .Too much of USA parents pressure students to be sports stars to the point there studies are neglected .I had one parent in high school tell me my son could be a jockey he is 5'9 ,I laughed I told him my son is going to college and hopefully getting a Engineering degree, sports is not his ticket to a job!

    My son said dad you can be average student and make it if you have a strong work ethic that said volumes.

    I see no Dumbing down of the university here they very hard, you are studying your a.. Off at least for most students .

    I do find it silly to transfer to go to a different state college when most of the time really is no better just a waste of money.

    I think community colleges,trade schools need to pushed more by parents. Community colleges for the first year or so then on to a 4 year not all kids progress the same.

    Children need to be told the truth about degrees not all pay the same, try to leave options on the table if they choose a degree that may not get to a job, talk about a 2 year degree .

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  • Chris Martin
    Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Jason V.  I mostly agree with you, except for a the part about a degree won't get a graduate a job.

    BTW, the $24,898 I posted is "the total cost of full-time attendance" to UNC-CH and covers the following (*see below): Tuition $8,834, Room $6,292, Board $4,926, Books & Supplies $1,442, Travel $810, Health Insurance $1,088, Loan Fees $58, Personal $1,448

    BS degree: 1100/week (57200) statistical average (25% bracket), with "real" tax at 16.5% using the IRS source I posted earlier,

    $1100 * 52 * 83.5% = 47,762

    The "degree" part is $35,336 total over 4 years... and with a statistical average return of $47,762 per year for a graduate's lifetime, I'd say that's a good return.

    The unemployment rate for recent college graduates is not 100%. BLS says for recent college graduates who have earned at least a bachelor’s degree and are 22 to 27 years old, "...the unemployment rate of recent graduates peaked in 2010 at about 7 percent versus 5 percent for all college graduates... in 2010 the unemployment rate for young workers without a degree was almost 16 percent." I do believe the underemployment rate is an issue (IMO a generational issue)... and that clearly pulls down the weekly averages (e.g. to $1100... from a number higher than that if underemployment was lower.)

    (*)Sources:
    http://admissions.unc.edu/afford/cost-of-attendance/
    http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2014/beyond-bls/new-college-degree-in-hand-now-what.htm

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  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Ben Leybovich

    Hi Ben

    I think 30,000 may be a bit much to spend on education.  I coached with Dave Lindahl and spent less, but the investment was well worth it.  There is no substitution from learning from someone who has done it.  

    Your goal is to shorten the learning curve, and that's what the program did for me.  The problem with these courses is that most people ( at least 80%) are not willing to do what is prescribed.

    I hardly hear anyone lambasting the college scene, where people are spending $100,000 plus AND 4 years of their life, only to either continue with their education or get a mediocre job.

    My recommendation would be to do your diligence with whatever "guru" you choose.  Not all gurus are created equal.  Choose the ones who want to serve, and don't focus on the price.  Focus on what you are going to learn and how quickly you can achieve that.  People tend to focus on cost and not value.

    If you've ever subscribed to a high level mastermind, they are expensive but they do offer tremendous value.

    Gino

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  • Billy Smith
    Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 716 posts · 313 votes
    10y

    Forbes

    Engineering concentrations comprise one third of the most valuable majors. Software engineering majors (No. 4) earn a median of $87,800 after 10 years on the job; environmental engineering majors (No. 5) earn a median of $88,600; civil engineering majors (No. 6) earn a median of $90,200; and petroleum engineering majors (No. 9) earn a median of $155,000—the highest paycheck on the list.

    “These aren’t majors that anyone could do. They’re hard, and these programs weed people out,” says Bardaro. “However, there is high demand for them and a low supply of people with the skills, so it drives up the labor market price.”

    In the Millennial Branding survey, employers reported engineering and computer information systems majors as their top recruits. Also, nearly half of these employers (47%) said the competition for new science, technology, engineering and math talent is steep. That means while other recent grads fight for jobs, these students will likely field multiple offers.

    Math and science concentrations are also well-represented on this list. Biochemistry (No. 2), computer science (No. 3), applied mathematics (No. 10), mathematics (No. 11), physics (No. 14) and statistics (No. 15) majors are increasingly in demand and well-paid.

    0Reply
  • Adam P
    Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2010 · 76 posts · 55 votes
    10y

    As a foreigner, I was really shocked when I learnt how American higher education worked.  When arguing about college, please leave out the best schools.  Those are fantastic value, and anyone that qualifies to get in, will most likely gain huge lifetime value out of that college.

    The system is broken for average people.  College doesn't turn a below average intellect student into a superstar employee.  That's why there are so many starbucks workers with degrees.  The system due to student loans enables these students to take out loans with effectively no underwriting.  Federal Student loans should have exam standards before giving out the money.  These poor people then spend a lifetime trying to pay too much money back, while working average income jobs.

    Obviously Trump sees right through this system, and setup a company to take advantage of it.  Trump University is no different to University of Phoenix, or hundreds of other institutions.

    I wish a politician would come out and say "stop sending stupid kids to college", but it will never happen.  It isn't fair on the student, and cheapens the school/degree.  I have heard from my contractors, of their kids enrolling in a BS college, to get the loan, so they can pay for a car/vacation.  It is easier to take out the student loan, when no bank will give them a personal loan.

    1Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    10y

    The things kids and young adults learn in High School and College is very overrated. Liberal Arts degrees are financially useless. Outside of financial reasons I see no other logical reason why one would spend a large amount of money on a college education. Critical thinking skills can't really be taught. You either have them, develop them on your own or you never will. 

    The best teacher in the world won't make the lazy or unmotivated become ambitious or motivated.  What is often overlooked is the individual; their thought process, motivation and determination.

    Recently I was in an UBER and began talking with the driver. He was in his 40's I am in my late 20's. We began discussing real estate and also education. The conversation was struck because he told me where he was from and it happens to be a very well off suburb that I am looking to purchase a home in this year. His story was that he grew up in this very wealthy suburb and had moved to a middle class suburb as an adult. I grew up in the lower end middle class suburb that he moved too and am now going to be moving to the wealthy suburb he grew up in. 

    He went on about how the wealthy suburb's education trumps the education you could get in the middle class suburb. I on the other hand argued that it would be dependent on the student and how much they wanted to learn. So long as the school was in a safe community there should not be a major difference in outcome. One school may be nicer but that will not guarantee success or failure, rather that would come from the student himself. 

    The thing is he got the "great" education from the wealthy suburb and ended up only being able to afford live in the middle class suburb as an adult. I on the other hand got the education from the "inferior" middle class suburb and am now moving to the wealthy suburb he got his education from but can no longer afford to live in. 

    Those that are of the highest intelligence use college to their advantage. They go into it with a plan. Putting their thinking skills to work to become a Dr, Lawyer, Engineer or other specialized professional. Earning Business credentials to help one climb the necessary rungs of the corporate ladder. That is what college should be used for. Kids wasting $30,000 right out of high school on a degree that will not advance their career is a bad choice any way you look at it. Typically these degrees were only pursued because they did not know what they wanted to do in life so they thought that college was the only natural next step.

    3Reply
  • Mike Jury
    Investor · Plano, TX · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 22 votes
    10y

    @Ben Leybovich

    Great topic, and great discussion!

    I would start out by saying, as you have so eloquently stated "Buyer Beware." Whether it is a university degree or a GURU course, either can be exceedingly valuable or a waste of time and money. The first thing a buyer has to determine is what is the purpose for making the investment. Some have discussed becoming a well rounded person, gaining critical problem solving and thinking skills, other suggest it is to get a better job or be successful. So why are you going to make the investment. So for each of these “goals” what is the best investment to achieve your stated goal. It might be a college education, it might be a technical education, it might be a guru seminar or it might be something else. Just like in Real Estate there is no one correct answer for everyone. Any of these investments should be about exchanging money for time. As a buyer you should be willing to spend money to shorten the experiential curve of learning, whether that be a technical skill, knowledge or relationship.

    The challenge in my mind is the lack of critical thinking by the buyer before investing. Most of us did not have the opportunity to step back and evaluate some of the choices we were going to make because of advertising, parental pressure, social pressure, or other demands. So for most of us we were funneled down a tract for college, no matter what. And if you want to go to work for a business, it might not be a bad decision. On the other hand, not everyone is cut out of the cloth of being a good employee. Since we are on BP, a number of us are probably not good employees.

    The piece we leave out of this discussion is the personal ambition of the buyer. There are those with no formal education, training or "advantage" that will be successful in their chosen endeavor, regardless of circumstances. Then there are those with all education, training and advantage that will never succeed in any endeavor, as they sit on the couch expecting someone to hand them success.

    I see all of the things we are discussing as product offerings, colleges, trade schools, seminars, guru courses, web sites (paid and unpaid). The questions for everyone to answer individually are; will this product offering move me closer to my goals, is it worth the price for the value, will it shorten my learning cycle. If the answers are yes go for it, if no. don’t. 

    0Reply
  • Bob E.
    Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I went to a liberal arts college (Hillsdale) and decided I wanted to go to law school after college so I majored in history.  My mother, wise woman that she is, said "Thats's nice but if you don't go to law school you will need to eat, so you need to get a second major in Business".  

    After graduating with a degree in Finance and a second degree in History, I want on to Michigan State and received my MBA in materials an logistics management.  I have always had a pain for manufacturing but there was nothing like that at Hillsdale.  My MBA has opened innumerable doors for me and got me into some great tech companies.  The money from bonuses and options allowed me to build a small stock portfolio that is the seed money for my real estate investing.

    @Sean Cole as you mentioned the networking benefits, I met my current business partner while in Grad school and he has been invaluable to our growth.

    I don't know where I would be with my education but I am very grateful for it.

    0Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Kill me if you like, but I don't get for the life of me how spending $100,000 to get a $50,000 - $60,000 job is a good thing, @Chris Martin. This isn't about dollars, Chris - this is about buying power for the time you trade...

    You've given 8 years to be in school. Now, you've got $60,000/year. Even if that's after tax, what does that buy you?

    You are at work, answering to your boss, for 8 - 12 hours per day. You've got a house, with a mortgage of $2,000. It's not a palace - perhaps $300,000, but it's what houses cost on the lower end now-days, unless you live in Lima OH, where no one wants to live :)

    Now, you pay for kid's cloths, a couple of cars, some insurance, take the family out once or twice, and what are you left with, Chris? Let's not forget those student loans... Are you lucky enough to be banking $1,000/month after 8 years of schooling and $100,000.

    I mean, if you'd at least make the argument that $100,000 + 8 years of education buys $200,000 salary, we would at least have something palatable to discuss. What's $60,000 gonna get you aside for 25% marginal tax rate :)

    0Reply
  • Chris Martin
    Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I graduated with a BS in Mathematics and Computer Science in 3 years. Most people take 4 years for a BA/BS. Associate's Degrees generally take 2 years. See Jason V.'s comments. It's a shame you spent 8 years and got nothing from your education. That's not true with me nor anyone I know. And statistically speaking, your comments are bogus. I posted real numbers from a real university and posted the sources. Feel free to post your CFFU graduation rates and how much their income was enhanced.

    Education is not for everyone, and clearly it's not for you. I'm not going to change your mind and that's Ok. Lots and lots of people are very successful without formal education.

    0Reply
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