We remodeled our basement and added a kitchen. There was plumbing and electrical that was added. There was also a washer and dryer added upstairs. We then added a wall to close off the water heater into a closet and finished drywalling the walls and ceilings.
Are we totally screwed because we did not get permits to begin with?
Property Manager · Monument, CO · Member since 2021 · 38 posts · 41 votes
4y
As long as you built to code, you will be okay. If or when you decide to put your house up for sale, an inspector will perhaps check for permit history, but they won't call the municipal or county on you. There is no enforcement arm for self-improvements. Inspectors likely just check to see if it's built to code and flag anything that isn't, and then those things will likely become negotiating items (whether to fix or reduce price). In other words, you aren't in an ideal situation, but you're far from "totally screwed."
Property Manager · Monument, CO · Member since 2021 · 38 posts · 41 votes
4y
As long as you built to code, you will be okay. If or when you decide to put your house up for sale, an inspector will perhaps check for permit history, but they won't call the municipal or county on you. There is no enforcement arm for self-improvements. Inspectors likely just check to see if it's built to code and flag anything that isn't, and then those things will likely become negotiating items (whether to fix or reduce price). In other words, you aren't in an ideal situation, but you're far from "totally screwed."
Investor · Van Isle · Member since 2021 · 455 posts · 226 votes
4y
Municipality may or may not be too concerned. Are you renting this space? That may be an issue if not permitted and a neighbor raises a complaint. The thing that could bite you is insurance coverage.
Real Estate Agent · Destin, FL · Member since 2019 · 116 posts · 111 votes
4y
It can be an issue if you go to sell the property and want to count the space in the square footage or as a "second kitchen" or something like that. I would call the county and see what the process is considering it's already built out. It can be a pain to get permitting on things that are already complete. If you're renting it, it's likely a tenant isn't going to care if you permitted it or not.
Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y
I disagree that "as long as you build to code, you will be okay." Codes change all the time. I'm in escrow with a client where the garage conversion "was done to code." Surprise, it wasn't and we negotiated an over $14,000 price reduction. Plus part of the reason to get permits is because the City holds the vendor accountable. I'm not a licensed electrician/plumber/contractor so I would be taking their word that it was done to code.
With all of that said, it is common to do work without permits all over the country. You just have to decide on the risk.
A couple of things to note:
-What's common out there as far as tenant expectations?
-Should you ever do work with permits later on, is there a risk of getting caught?
-Are there neighbors that will potentially complain?
-Can you even get permits?
-What are the liabilities with tenants?
With all of that said, you aren't screwed. Check with locals who know more but generally if you get caught you have to correct it. This means worst case scenario tearing out the kitchen. If you decide to sell, it is a disclosure item. In Los Angeles it is common to do some work without permits.
Regarding insurance, the concern is if a claim is needed and the insurance company finds out work was done without permits, they may not pay out. Their argument is that it may have been faulty to begin with.
Pomona, NY · Member since 2016 · 375 posts · 217 votes
4y
@John Fakish every response so far has been inaccurate, finishing a basment is one thing, adding a kitchen is a whole thing in its self. The building inspector will make you pull a permit for all, framing, electrical, plumbing etc, then you will have to hire licensed contractors for each trade to certify all is up to code. If your basment does not meet current code, egress windows or full walkout basemnt, not a garage they do not count as egress as well as head room then you will be required to rip it all out, or they will let it slide as finished storage space, which the kitchen will have to still be removed. You should of pulled the permits that were necessary, especially you took an unfinished space and converted it. If you sell your house, once title is done and the building dept does they're walk around they will issue a violation and in return you will not be able to sell until that violation is satisfied. More and more municipalities are cracking down on add one that we're never permitted
Pomona, NY · Member since 2016 · 375 posts · 217 votes
4y
@Michael Gessner I meant to say most responses are inaccurate, also depending on what your local laws are, if you decide to rent that space and it's not a legal space technically the tenant doesn't have to pay rent
@John Fakish yes. Adding a kitchen to your basement is a huge no no. Call the town/city and speak to the inspector.
Permits are a monitoring tool, not enforcement itself. If a permit is not drawn, government has jurisdiction to inspect to make sure code is followed. We don't have an "inspector" in our county, but we have a building department who issues permits and they inspect to approve development. They are called "code enforcers" here, accurately so. If I were John, I would make sure code is met to the best of my ability, and if the county got on my tail I would allow them to correct my mistakes and I would rewire/replumb/whatever. If they demanded I tear it up even if it was built to code, I'd get a lawyer. There is a very strong legal argument that says government should enforce code, not their bureaucratic process.
As long as you built to code, you will be okay. Inspectors likely just check to see if it's built to code and flag anything that isn't, and then those things will likely become negotiating items
Nope, you're wrong. I've been through this maybe a 'time or two' :-)
You can build a whole house precisely to code and they have the legal right to make you tear it down. It depends on locality somewhat but the rules are the rules, and for a good reason. How do they know what you did inside walls or under slabs? How do they know the engineering is correct? And on and on.
The best way out of this is to go the the city, plead ignorance and stupidity and ask for their help. Your attitude will in large part determine their attitude. A site visit will be made and it will depend on the inspector and the kind of day he is having.........
Nope, you're wrong. I've been through this maybe a 'time or two' :-)
Heh, me too. It isn't fun getting visited by the "yellow jackets" and asked to inspect something you didn't ask to be inspected. In this specific case, though, the kitchen is built and the owner is wondering if he's "screwed." I don't think he is, far from it. In a perfect world, get a permit and get everything done right, but there are a bajillion unpermitted projects out there and owners (as well as municipalities) just roll with it. My experience has been Code Enforcement Officers are more interested in compliance and safety than they are in "getting permits." At least the good ones are.
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y
@Chris Jeub Yes, we must have different experiences. Most if not all of my building experience over 30-40 years and in many localities was there was no forgiveness at all. You must be in a lax area as far as construction (good for you).
Of course the size and type of permit matters somewhat. But kitchens and baths involve too many of the 'inspectable' trades..in my experience.
…….you will have to hire licensed contractors for each trade to certify all is up to code….
That’s false information. Maybe true in many municipalities in New York, but here in California (and probably Utah as well) the owner can do all work himself without any licensed contractors.
If you were to get it a permit for a kitchen, would it get approved? If you have a SFH zoning you are only allowed to have one stove. So you are OK with a bar but not to have additional stoves in the bar area (include microwave oven). As long as you are conforming to the code you should be ok
…….you will have to hire licensed contractors for each trade to certify all is up to code….
That’s false information. Maybe true in many municipalities in New York, but here in California (and probably Utah as well) the owner can do all work himself without any licensed contractors.
I think that's true in many states. An homeowner can act as an 'Owner/Builder' and hire his own sub-contractors and/or do the work himself. He still must follow all local applicable laws and conform to the current code.
With the noted exception of @Rick Albert's, @Bruce Woodruff's, @Michael Gessner's, and @Bud Gaffney's comments, much of this thread is so divorced from reality that I think a lot of people on BP really, really wish they could live on Fantasy Island. Can you get away with what you're trying to do? Once or twice, perhaps, and more often in the armpit of nowhere than in large, regulated metropolitan areas, especially many metro areas in the northeast. But wherever you are, sooner or later, this is the kind of behavior that puts an end to real estate careers. And not in a nice way,
…….you will have to hire licensed contractors for each trade to certify all is up to code….
That’s false information. Maybe true in many municipalities in New York, but here in California (and probably Utah as well) the owner can do all work himself without any licensed contractors.
I think that's true in many states. An homeowner can act as an 'Owner/Builder' and hire his own sub-contractors and/or do the work himself. He still must follow all local applicable laws and conform to the current code.
Yes, that's true in Pennsylvania. BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO GET THE PERMIT. No permit and a second kitchen in the basement with no egress window and you're DONE in Pittsburgh. The city inspectors will crawl up your butt and pull a sofa in with them so they can stretch out and relax.
@Jim K. What would be your suggestion here? What should I expect? Would love your thoughts. Kitchens are allowed in basements out here, but again - we didn't get the permit in advance (we are reaching out to the correct departments now to correct this oversight).
Our basement is half above ground and the windows are super large - same size as the upper level windows. They slide open and one can easily climb out of the window.
With the noted exception of @Rick Albert's, @Bruce Woodruff's, @Michael Gessner's, and @Bud Gaffney's comments, much of this thread is so divorced from reality that I think a lot of people on BP really, really wish they could live on Fantasy Island. Can you get away with what you're trying to do? Once or twice, perhaps, and more often in the armpit of nowhere than in large, regulated metropolitan areas, especially many metro areas in the northeast. But wherever you are, sooner or later, this is the kind of behavior that puts an end to real estate careers. And not in a nice way,
Yes. It's just not worth it! Although I tend to be a bit of a scofflaw, I would never screw around with the permit process. It's the right thing to do.....and it separates the men from the boys.