How much money do you REALLY need to flip your first property?

How much money do you REALLY need to flip your first property?

Elise Bickel TauberBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Cranberry Twp · Member since 2017 · 385 posts · 198 votes

I have seen so many posts and scam programs from people who can help you "get rich quick" by flipping homes talking about using "other peoples money" to flip homes. Well, as an investor and agent of almost 20 years let me tell you what I've seen from first hand experience myself (between deals I've personally done and deals my client has done) and what you need to know before taking the leap!

First, risky investments, like flips, aren't cheap. So if you aren't using your own cash, you are going to pay....out of your nose! And especially your first couple of deals, your rates and fees will be higher than someone who has done a dozen deals. You are a risky investment and someone who is loaning you $100-$200k or more is going to make sure they make it worth their while. We have worked with standard lending, rehab investment, and hard money lenders all with different requirements. I personally like rehab investment strategies because you can get in for as little as 10% down on the purchase and finance up to 110% of the rehab costs. Which means, if you are buying a home for $100k and the rehab is $100k you would need $10k (plus closing costs if applicable) for the financing. That is a very low investment to make for a $200k rehab. 

Once you decide on the lending, where are you going to get that money? Well, I am not a fan of using other people's money for this. I have seen so many of those programs where you convince others to basically loan you money for your flip. What happens when things go wrong? You will already be struggling to keep everything together your first couple deals, do you want to have the pressure of the bank, the market, struggles with the renovation, and then another person breathing down your neck to return their money? Now I'm not against having a partner, but it does get difficult when you have someone you don't know well loaning you money and they are worried about their return.

What type of property is good for your first flip? No matter how tantalizing a large reno with big project margins look for your first deal. Don't do it! Just don't do it my friends! The bigger the project, the bigger the chance that things will go wrong. Do your first flip or two with basic paint, flooring, light fixtures, and maybe a kitchen update. Maybe the margin is only $10-$15k profit when it's done. It's better to take the chance on that than to take on a big renovation with a $60,000 profit margin and next thing you know you are significantly over budget and you have unexpected costs that eliminate the profit anyway. For your first 3 deals, expect to make nothing. Just hope to get your money back and not loose anything. Deal 4 is when you should have the experience and teams in place to be ready to make some money. Everything before then is a learning experience.

The biggest piece of advice I can give is that flipping properties is NOT for the weak of heart. If it was guaranteed, everyone would do it. It is stressful, a calculated risk...but a risk none-the-less. I know investors who flip 5-7 houses a year and can easily live well off of that income. I know others who are struggling with every deal they put together. 

Have you stuck around this long? 

Want to see a real world example?


116 Ravilla Ave in Carrick PA
I recently anazlyed this for an investor who was thinking about using this for a brrr. 
The property is a 2 bed 1 bath in Carrick and is listed at $70,000. Carrick (where I have personally flipped before and love this area) is currently considered a B+ area. Not sure how to find this info? Of course I recommend a local agent as part of your team to do this research for you but if you want to search on your own, I had another post where I shared links including niche.com that can help with area ratings.

At first look from photos, the expected reno is $20-$30k for a mid-grade flip. Paint, flooring, bathroom, lighting. Nothing major. 
When I look at ARV numbers, I only use sold properties from the last 6 months. Don't go back 3 years. Don't use z-estimates from neighboring properties. Don't ask your Uncle Bob his thoughts. You need sold data. In addition, be mindful that if a property sold last week for $220k and used conventional, or better yet, FHA financing for the purchase, that bank had to appraise the property and was able to find that value before lending. This is all good when you are looking to re-sell. The comps for this property are showing $130-$150k. I always plan for the lower end.

$70,000 purchase (if you purchase at full price which hopefully, in today's market you don't have to).
Down payment : $7,000
Closing costs (assuming seller will agree to sellers assist) : $2100
Out of pocket cost : $9100

Resale price : $130,000
Closing costs when you sell : $12,000 (there is 2.5% transfer tax in the city in addition to standard closing costs and commissions)
Renovations : $30,000 (use the high end of course)
Purchase : $70,000
Closing costs when you bought : $2100

Potential Profit : $15,900
Estimated time for renovation is 1-2 weeks. Days on market in this area is under 30 days. Average time from signed contract to closing is 30 days. So in 3 months you could turn $9100 into $22,900. I think thats pretty good! But of course, for your first few, Just be happy if you walk away with the $9100 you put in additionally.

I hope that helps anyone looking to invest! 

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Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
3y

None, you need a good deal. 

See this reply in the discussion

11 Replies

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  • Andy SabischPro Member
    Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2021 · 660 posts · 561 votes
    3y
    Excellent post and great advice to those that are looking at getting into the flipping process.  You will find 100 things that do not go according to plan and you need to be able to absorb them into the deal and make it work.  Learning permits and contractors are a lesson unto themselves.  We have done well but nothing like the TV shows portray or the scammers that market the get rich quick programs . . . . just send them $10,000 to $30,000 (and they get rich).  Paying that to learn what you can get here for a fraction of the cost is a losing proposition and the money you save can go into your first flip.  There are more and more people selling programs and putting slick videos and websites up to show you how much you can make with no money out of pocket . . . . sorry, it simply does not work that way.
  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    Part of the hard part (for me at least) is 

    (1) Finding a deal at 50-60% of market price that only needs 20-30k in repairs. Finding the deal is tough enough

    (2) Being able to finance that deal with 10% down and financing at 110% of the rehab costs - good strategy for a flip. What if you want to turn it into a rental? 

    My deals typically look like - buy in cash (my own cash usually around 80-95k), I have a local bank that will essentially do a no seasoning cash out refi but they call it capital replenishment, so I'll get 40k or so back, use that on the rehab (or a 401k loan), then refi into a LTR conventional loan. Or they will fund up to 85% of the ARV then essentially refi into a 5/1 ARM

  • New to Real Estate · Chicago IL · Member since 2023 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    3y

    Extremely informative post to kick start my journey into real estate and to bigger pockets. Curious when doing those numbers, was the 30,000 renovation financed as well or was that from savings?

  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    None, you need a good deal. 

  • Andy SabischPro Member
    Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2021 · 660 posts · 561 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Eliott Elias:

    None, you need a good deal. 


    Remember the post started with what was needed for your first deal.  If you have no experience, finding a source of funding that will cover 100% of the purchase and reno costs is like finding a unicorn . . not going to happen and I would question anyone that says you can buy the property with nothing out of pocket (please feel free prove me wrong).

    There are good deals out there and there are even some listed on MLS if you can look past cosmetics and the numbers work . . . we have gotten several that were on the market and in some cases for a while.  Some were more than a cosmetic repair but the cash at closing justified the effort.

    I have talked to a number of people over the past few years that got pulled into the coaching programs that provided theory that is available for free or very little especially here that never got a deal, never got the assistance they were promised and now had a financial hole they were digging out of after buying the course.

    Finding the RIGHT deal is key but setting up possible financing before finding the deal is critical.  When we started, we were offered a pair of duplexes with established tenants that was cash flowing at close to 22% when the owner needed money for medical costs for a family member.  Super deal . . . and then we started to get the financing and found out that putting the cart before the horse was not the way to go.  Two days later we had what we needed and the owner let us know that she had sold it to someone that had the funds . . . lesson learned.

    The more deals you do the easier the financing becomes but even now we d not get 100% financing for purchase and reno (again, if someone has a secret to do that as the "coaches" claim, please let me know)
  • Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    Little to none, just flip the contract. I made 19k my 1st month. Sure, I could have made 35- 45k, after the reno and sale in about 3 months later, but hey 19k for pushing paper with no stress no problem. 

    All the best  

  • Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2017 · 304 posts · 347 votes
    3y

    @Elise Bickel Tauber and all - first I think it's important to understand that there is conventional real estate "investing" (have a down payment, use an agent to buy). And then there is unconventional or creative financing for real estate investing.  What I see is missing in this space is that you have to buy at a discount of ARV to invest. Otherwise, you are just buying and hoping. REI is calculated risk bc you have put in the time and due diligence to know your market. I have lived with one foot in both worlds (conventional and unconventional) as an investor who is licensed. The market is ever changing. You need to know your market as real estate is valued block to block. Sure, a slower market is easier to find deals, but there are opportunities in any market. Markets are cyclical. Educate yourself on market cycles with Recession Proof Real Estate by @J Scott. 

    I agree, if you are on your first deal you don't have enough experience to offer, and therefor, to accept other people's money (OPM).  And don't go big at first, cosmetics only, people.  Leave structural damage, layout change, et al to the more experience, full time investors. But don't get discouraged! You can do seller financing which is keeping the existing financing in place which is technically using other people's credit.  @Andy Sabisch I did close to 30 deals before I was licensed.  The most money I ever paid was $1,000 for a property.  (I did pay more in getting sellers out of arrears on some deals but got my money back+) On my profile is a sample of my portfolio history. A few contracts I flipped (wholesaling) as @Bob S. suggested - made instant cash and learned a ton! Others I bought subto or acquired on a L/O. I hired a mentor/coach to learn how to find these sellers, how to talk to them to get them calling me and how to close and sign the contracts to lock up deals. And it was the best money I ever spent. :) Hopefully that adds some perspective. There are almost endless ways to make money and help others with REI.

  • Elise Bickel TauberBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Cranberry Twp · Member since 2017 · 385 posts · 198 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jeremy Horton:

    Part of the hard part (for me at least) is 

    (1) Finding a deal at 50-60% of market price that only needs 20-30k in repairs. Finding the deal is tough enough

    (2) Being able to finance that deal with 10% down and financing at 110% of the rehab costs - good strategy for a flip. What if you want to turn it into a rental? 

    My deals typically look like - buy in cash (my own cash usually around 80-95k), I have a local bank that will essentially do a no seasoning cash out refi but they call it capital replenishment, so I'll get 40k or so back, use that on the rehab (or a 401k loan), then refi into a LTR conventional loan. Or they will fund up to 85% of the ARV then essentially refi into a 5/1 ARM


    Then you can refinance with a standard loan, dscr loan, etc and hold onto it after you have leased it. Right now turn around time from closing to being able to refinance is 90 days so you will need to plan for 3-4 month of carrying costs. If you do it right your ARV will be done correctly where when you refinance and get 80% back out, you should be able to get all or most of the money back out when you refinance.

  • Elise Bickel TauberBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Cranberry Twp · Member since 2017 · 385 posts · 198 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Meech Lewis:

    Extremely informative post to kick start my journey into real estate and to bigger pockets. Curious when doing those numbers, was the 30,000 renovation financed as well or was that from savings?


     We have a few lenders that would actually lender up to $33k for the reno so only out of pocket is that $9100.

  • Elise Bickel TauberBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Cranberry Twp · Member since 2017 · 385 posts · 198 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Andy Sabisch:
    Quote from @Eliott Elias:

    None, you need a good deal. 


    Remember the post started with what was needed for your first deal.  If you have no experience, finding a source of funding that will cover 100% of the purchase and reno costs is like finding a unicorn . . not going to happen and I would question anyone that says you can buy the property with nothing out of pocket (please feel free prove me wrong).

    There are good deals out there and there are even some listed on MLS if you can look past cosmetics and the numbers work . . . we have gotten several that were on the market and in some cases for a while.  Some were more than a cosmetic repair but the cash at closing justified the effort.

    I have talked to a number of people over the past few years that got pulled into the coaching programs that provided theory that is available for free or very little especially here that never got a deal, never got the assistance they were promised and now had a financial hole they were digging out of after buying the course.

    Finding the RIGHT deal is key but setting up possible financing before finding the deal is critical.  When we started, we were offered a pair of duplexes with established tenants that was cash flowing at close to 22% when the owner needed money for medical costs for a family member.  Super deal . . . and then we started to get the financing and found out that putting the cart before the horse was not the way to go.  Two days later we had what we needed and the owner let us know that she had sold it to someone that had the funds . . . lesson learned.

    The more deals you do the easier the financing becomes but even now we d not get 100% financing for purchase and reno (again, if someone has a secret to do that as the "coaches" claim, please let me know)

     I have 2 lenders who I closed over 30 deals with in 2022 for my clients (I'm an agent) who were able to get 90% of the purchase price and 110% of the reno.

  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Elise Bickel Tauber

    Then you can refinance with a standard loan, dscr loan, etc and hold onto it after you have leased it. Right now turn around time from closing to being able to refinance is 90 days so you will need to plan for 3-4 month of carrying costs. If you do it right your ARV will be done correctly where when you refinance and get 80% back out, you should be able to get all or most of the money back out when you refinance.


    Exactly the number I use too - I try to be all in for 80% of ARV. Anything lower it's too hard to find deals without a very significant rehab. And usually I can't get conventional financing for such a property, alas doing a cash purchase

    What's the name of the lender you use?! Id love to give them a call and see what they would be willing to lend on

    Good post by the way! I like the overall message. 

    How do you typically find your deals? Favorite method!?

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