Ask me your electrical questions!
Electrician · Bothell, WA · Member since 2014 · 241 posts · 96 votes
I've been an electrician in Washington (the real one..) for 10 years, residential, commercial, and industrial. I've learned a ton from BP so this is me trying to give back with knowledge of something I know very well. Hit me up anytime.. even if you're reading this a year from now..
Sometimes I look at older homes that have old break boxes or have brands that are known to be bad. I ask my electrician about changing out the breaker box and he gives me a price. That part I get. Then he talks about changing out the service as well. What all does changing out the service include?
it means everything from the riser, the rain head, the cam, the meter, the wire from the meter to the pane..
look at this pic... it's from the "weatherproof fittings" to the "Service wire holder".
@Loren Thomasis Federal NoArk and Federal Pacific the same thing?
Also, how do you know if you need to upgrade service. My panel says 125amp on it. It currently does not have central AC. Stove and heat is gas. Its about 1000 sq ft so a 3 ton or smaller will easily work.
How big of a deal is it when a house has updated electrical (breakers) but you find some knob and tube crap in the attic? How expensive is it to deal with this - or is it totally unnecessary if you only see a circuit breaker in the basement and no fusebox?
@Loren Thomasis Federal NoArk and Federal Pacific the same thing?
Also, how do you know if you need to upgrade service. My panel says 125amp on it. It currently does not have central AC. Stove and heat is gas. Its about 1000 sq ft so a 3 ton or smaller will easily work.
I haven't heard of NoArk, I can't help you there.
As far as a service upgrade, there's a lot of variables but the biggest factor is breaker space. If there's room for another breaker then you're probably fine. If there isn't, you can get a "peanut" breaker which is literally half the size of a standard breaker. Sometimes if the panel is new enough you can convert breakers in a panel to peanuts, thus freeing up breaker space. If you're only doing a 3 ton (30 amp) then I would think you don't need to upgrade the panel size, unless it's already full, or its not modern enough to allow peanut breakers.
Hey Loren,
Appreciate you answering all these questions. I'm curious, if you were supplying a rental property today, lets say a single family home, with new lighting from top to bottom, what lamps would you use and why? What brand, wattage and type?
I've been an electrician in Washington (the real one..) for 10 years, residential, commercial, and industrial. I've learned a ton from BP so this is me trying to give back with knowledge of something I know very well. Hit me up anytime.. even if you're reading this a year from now..
Go back to page 1 and give @Loren Thomas a vote for this Thread so he gets an Award for 10 Votes (I think).
This is an excellent example of a BP member Paying back and Paying forward!
Hey Loren,
Appreciate you answering all these questions. I'm curious, if you were supplying a rental property today, lets say a single family home, with new lighting from top to bottom, what lamps would you use and why? What brand, wattage and type?
There's a lot more light type info in a post on the first page.
LED is king, without any doubt. LEDs are expensive though, which means you need to decide if your property is worth the upgrade. Tech markets could certainly command higher rent if all the lighting is LED, how much more I don't know. Costco is a good place to buy LED lamps for a good price in bulk (like say for a rental), at the very least a competitive price. LEDs are also the most efficient option, using about 1/6th the power.
If the property isn't worth upgrading all the lighting to LED, compact fluorescent (CFL) would be my next choice.... for a rental. I say that because I personally dislike CFL. They have to "warm up", the color is frequently dissimilar to other CFLs, and they don't dim as well as other options. Personally, I would put traditional bulbs in my house before CFLs, I dislike them that much. But like I said, it is a good option for a rental. They last a long time and a affordable.
These are the ones i have in my home, and I love them. I would marry them if I wasn't already married... maybe it's an electrician thing:
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400...
I have recessed lighting in my house as well, I used these they work well:
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... Aluminum is common for the service feeders, but not general branch circuit wiring for lights and outlets... unless it's the 80s. Copper was still predominant, but there's a lot of aluminum wired houses out there. It's really not even much worse. Although the aluminum wiring can't handle as much power as the copper wiring, this isn't really an issue as long as the appropriate size breakers are used, which if it's the original system, it would be.
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I'll have to disagree with you about the problems with aluminum wiring for branch wiring. I do agree with you that aluminum branch wiring is problematic, but for other reasons.
Aluminum can certainly handle the power, otherwise it would not be used for the incoming service feed, where ALL of the power must flow through to enter the house; aluminum conductors do have to be thicker than copper to handle the same current rating.
The problems with aluminum wiring are oxidation related and the interface with copper since copper is a dissimilar metal from aluminum. Compounds are used to coat the aluminum service connection to prevent oxidation. Various approaches are used to deal with interconnecting aluminum wiring to copper (and brass terminals on switches and receptacles). But those are the two real issues with aluminum. And one of them is present even in new electrical service installed to this day - oxidation.
Anybody who is in doubt about my info here should search on their own to disprove ...
I'll have to disagree with you about the problems with aluminum wiring for branch wiring. I do agree with you that aluminum branch wiring is problematic, but for other reasons.
Aluminum can certainly handle the power, otherwise it would not be used for the incoming service feed, where ALL of the power must flow through to enter the house; aluminum conductors do have to be thicker than copper to handle the same current rating.
The problems with aluminum wiring are oxidation related and the interface with copper since copper is a dissimilar metal from aluminum. Compounds are used to coat the aluminum service connection to prevent oxidation. Various approaches are used to deal with interconnecting aluminum wiring to copper (and brass terminals on switches and receptacles). But those are the two real issues with aluminum. And one of them is present even in new electrical service installed to this day - oxidation.
Anybody who is in doubt about my info here should search on their own to disprove ...
I'm a little confused what you're disagreeing with? I didn't say aluminum can't handle the power, I said it can't handle as much power as copper, which is a fact. Aluminum cannot transfer electrons as fast as copper, which means more friction, which means more heat, which means melting. Aluminum wiring has to be a larger wire size than it's copper counterpart to transfer the same amount of electrons.
Aluminum is normally used to feed the house with power because 1) It is much cheaper than big copper feeder wire. 2) It weighs much less in regards to hanging from the transformer to the house. 3) It's much easier to work with in larger wire sizes.
In a house wired in all aluminum, what circumstance would it need to interface with copper? I know of a few, but they aren't really worth mentioning as it's pretty uncommon unless you're modifying the wiring system for a remodel or what have you. Oxidation is a problem easily fixed with the appropriate wirenuts or lugs, and de-ox.
Any thoughts about my questions regarding old wiring in the attic?
Hey Loren,
Appreciate you answering all these questions. I'm curious, if you were supplying a rental property today, lets say a single family home, with new lighting from top to bottom, what lamps would you use and why? What brand, wattage and type?
There's a lot more light type info in a post on the first page.
LED is king, without any doubt. LEDs are expensive though, which means you need to decide if your property is worth the upgrade. Tech markets could certainly command higher rent if all the lighting is LED, how much more I don't know. Costco is a good place to buy LED lamps for a good price in bulk (like say for a rental), at the very least a competitive price. LEDs are also the most efficient option, using about 1/6th the power.
If the property isn't worth upgrading all the lighting to LED, compact fluorescent (CFL) would be my next choice.... for a rental. I say that because I personally dislike CFL. They have to "warm up", the color is frequently dissimilar to other CFLs, and they don't dim as well as other options. Personally, I would put traditional bulbs in my house before CFLs, I dislike them that much. But like I said, it is a good option for a rental. They last a long time and a affordable.
These are the ones i have in my home, and I love them. I would marry them if I wasn't already married... maybe it's an electrician thing:
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400...
I have recessed lighting in my house as well, I used these they work well:
Excellent info. I'll be doing a lot more research on LED's. Thanks.
How big of a deal is it when a house has updated electrical (breakers) but you find some knob and tube crap in the attic? How expensive is it to deal with this - or is it totally unnecessary if you only see a circuit breaker in the basement and no fusebox?
Sorry Corey I missed this one.
Knob and tube is a touchy subject, it CAN be safe, but there's a few red flags to look for. Knob and tube wiring was usually paired with a fuse panel instead of a breaker panel. Along with this there will be usually no grounding in the house, which isn't good. All orginal knob and tube wiring and it's service components are getting pretty rare, but if you see a fuse panel, that's a red flag. Not because of the knob and tube, more because of the ungrounded fuse panel.
More frequently people will just replace the fuse panel with a breaker panel and leave the knob and tube wiring. This CAN be done safely, as long as the wiring is still in decent condition. It should be rubbery and be able to bend without cracking. The other thing a new electrical panel will do it provide some grounding via outside ground rods, and gas and/or plumbing bond. All the outlets will remain ungrounded however.
If the knob and tube wiring cracks apart or is too hard to bend, it's seen a lot of heat over the years and should be replaced... all of it. You can also splice romex into good condition knob and tube, but it must be done following some pretty specific guidelines. Point is, the wiring itself MAY be in useable condition.
Knob and tube wiring became a big heat issue when insulation technology advanced and people surrounded the wiring with it. Combining that with knob and tube's already poor heat dissipation made for a lot of house fires. People plugged in 40 disco balls to make the shag carpet really pop, and then plugged in a bunch of lava lamps and hair dryers which the wiring wasn't designed to handle, much less covered in advanced insulation.
Conclusion: Knob and tube CAN be safe, but isn't always.
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Aluminum can certainly handle the power, otherwise it would not be used for the incoming service feed, where ALL of the power must flow through to enter the house; aluminum conductors do have to be thicker than copper to handle the same current rating.
...
I'm a little confused what you're disagreeing with? I didn't say aluminum can't handle the power, I said it can't handle as much power as copper, which is a fact. Aluminum cannot transfer electrons as fast as copper, which means more friction, which means more heat, which means melting. Aluminum wiring has to be a larger wire size than it's copper counterpart to transfer the same amount of electrons.
...
In a house wired in all aluminum, what circumstance would it need to interface with copper? I know of a few, but they aren't really worth mentioning as it's pretty uncommon unless you're modifying the wiring system for a remodel or what have you. Oxidation is a problem easily fixed with the appropriate wirenuts or lugs, and de-ox.
Let's see. First you say that aluminum cannot handle as much power as copper, but then you say a larger diameter of aluminum can. Had you said aluminum wiring of identical diameter as copper could not handle the same power as the copper, then that certainly is a fact; but without qualifying it to the same diameter wire, then that is not quite right because one would just get thicker aluminum (back when it was in use) to handle the same load
The interfacing with copper is quite significant when you look at the DIY types who aren't aware of this. They want to connect a GFCI, they get one at Home Depot and then you have aluminum connected to brass terminals - and then you have a problem that develops over time when the interface between the dissimilar metals begins to go bad. So it's something that is a worry when looking to buy a house with this sort of wiring present within the walls.
Link for those interested:
Let's see. First you say that aluminum cannot handle as much power as copper, but then you say a larger diameter of aluminum can. Had you said aluminum wiring of identical diameter as copper could not handle the same power as the copper, then that certainly is a fact; but without qualifying it to the same diameter wire, then that is not quite right because one would just get thicker aluminum (back when it was in use) to handle the same load
The interfacing with copper is quite significant when you look at the DIY types who aren't aware of this. They want to connect a GFCI, they get one at Home Depot and then you have aluminum connected to brass terminals - and then you have a problem that develops over time when the interface between the dissimilar metals begins to go bad. So it's something that is a worry when looking to buy a house with this sort of wiring present within the walls.
I'm not sure why this is dragging on. Houses are wired in mostly 12 and 14 gauge wire. 12 gauge copper can handle more power power than 12 gauge aluminum, and so on.. had i known you would be so critical of my correct statements I would have clarified. The typical homeowner or landlord doesn't need in depth analysis.
The typical homeowner or landlord doesn't need in depth analysis.
Damn, I was hoping this was going to go into I2R Heating, Power Factor, and Distorted Sine Waves.
House wiring so mind deadening
Loren, thanks for your post, very generous :)
I am looking at older smaller houses and anticipate replacing electrical wires. I am planning on rough wiring the house myself and hiring an electrician to upgrade the box and make connections. I have 2 questions.
1. Can you think of any resources (books or online) which are easy for a non-electricians to read regarding codes? And are some things federal rather than state? I generally do things better than code but I'm finding the electrical codes (in California) are very hard to read. I'm looking for something that tells me things like how many outlets per line for, say 15 amp circuit, heights of wire from the floor, length of wire pr gauge etc. in plain English.
and 2. At what point is the electric company involved in upgrading a box and connection from say 60 amp to 200 amp service? And roughly what do they charge?
Loren, thanks for your post, very generous :)
I am looking at older smaller houses and anticipate replacing electrical wires. I am planning on rough wiring the house myself and hiring an electrician to upgrade the box and make connections. I have 2 questions.
1. Can you think of any resources (books or online) which are easy for a non-electricians to read regarding codes? And are some things federal rather than state? I generally do things better than code but I'm finding the electrical codes (in California) are very hard to read. I'm looking for something that tells me things like how many outlets per line for, say 15 amp circuit, heights of wire from the floor, length of wire pr gauge etc. in plain English.
and 2. At what point is the electric company involved in upgrading a box and connection from say 60 amp to 200 amp service? And roughly what do they charge?
1. Man this is kind of a tough one. There is really quite a bit of little things that you have to know to do everything properly. The National Electric Code (NEC) is the authority on wiring methods that most of the authorities having jurisdiction would reference at any sort of inspection. One major problem is that minor code changes vary from state to state, county to county, and even city to city. For this reason it might be worth it to have a local pro just come in and do it, there will be less headache in the end I bet. If you're up for powering through then send me a list of questions, I can answer them per the NEC, but be advised your local authority may require subtle but important differences.
2. In my area, the utility has to shut off the power before you can even swap out a panel of the same amperage, much less increasing it. Cost varies a lot, Do they have to upgrade their wire? Can their transformer support the extra power? Overhead or underground feed? I've paid $150, I've also paid $1,200...
Thanks Loren!
On 1. I think I will be able to hire an electrician to confer with me on running wires. A friend of mine knows one who has worked well with them. But I'd like to reference something that would explain further, in plain English, and be more prepared. I think I'd need a few electrician courses to understand some of the stuff that is written for code. Are there any good simple DIY references you know of that would give me a better idea? I've run wires and set lights and outlets myself, my late partner was a handyman, but I'd like to learn more without getting into theory and esoterics... I think rewiring a whole house in some ways should be easier than fixing other people's messes...
2. thanks! Does that mean if their transformer isn't up to par that I'd have to pay some of the upgrade costs on that? LOL, we've had a lot of transformers blow up over the years in this area...
And yes, of course I'd have the electrician double check whatever I did...
I recently found a recently installed 'in the wall' electric heater with blower rated @ 1500 watts pulling 12.4 amps. However it's spliced into the electric stove 30amp, 3 wire outlet.
Certainly not code but I assume the feed is not compromised & I have seen the splitting of the 30amp feed in many older homes???
I recently found a recently installed 'in the wall' electric heater with blower rated @ 1500 watts pulling 12.4 amps. However it's spliced into the electric stove 30amp, 3 wire outlet.
Certainly not code but I assume the feed is not compromised & I have seen the splitting of the 30amp feed in many older homes???
Heaters need their own circuit(s). Your stove is a 50 amp outlet. People have done some odd things over the years, I've seen what your talking about before. Actually the microwave in my house runs off the stove. Either way, it is not correct. I guess I'm not saying fix it, but it should be considered.
Hi Loren. Here's one. I don't know if you've answered it yet, so if you have, just point me to the thread where the answer is.
I want to learn how to do what you do. How long does that take and what is involved? Are there any good places to start?
Hi Loren. Here's one. I don't know if you've answered it yet, so if you have, just point me to the thread where the answer is.
I want to learn how to do what you do. How long does that take and what is involved? Are there any good places to start?
If by do what I do you mean be an electrician, it varies by location. In a lot of places you just have to get the license from the local authority, easy as the license fee.
Where I am, you get a trainee card (for a fee), then you need to acquire 4000 hours (2 years) working under a residential journeyman, during which you have to take 48 hours of classes ($750), then you get an affidavit of hours worked from your employer to file with the state (for a fee). You can then apply to take the journeyman test (for a fee). If you are approved you can go take the test (for a fee). If you pass they'll send you the journeyman license (for a fee). If you want a commercial license, all the previous info applies, but it's 8000 commercial hours under a commercial journeyman.
That's precisely what I mean. Thanks!
Do you know if these are things that can be accomplished while working a full-time job, or am I going to need to just set aside some funds to live on (or get some passive income going) before I pursue this sort of training?