HELP!!! Major sewer leak under slab unexpected!

Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 142 posts · 44 votes

I have a rehab property here in Garland and I finished the foundation only to get the call from the company telling me I had a leak. Of course I got a second opinion my neighbor who owns a plumbing company to go out and he also verified yes, sewer leak. They ran the camera and there are multiple leaks throughout the home. The house is cast iron plumbing large tree roots have grown into some of the plumbing we believe because the camera hit dirt and would not push through. I did not account for this at all. Please tell me my options here on all levels!!! They quoted $15,000 to redo all the plumbing. Oh my, no way! 1463 sq ft home. Btw I have not put any flooring down I left that to do last of course, if that matters in the options I have.

So, does anyone know another company, another solution. Can I sell the house without the warranty for the foundation and still get a conventional buyer??? The house plumbing works wonderfully. I am totally at a loss here on my next move and could really use some advice. I thought I knew all the BIG TICKET ITEMS, apparently I overlooked a major one!!! Wow do I feel like a fool! Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks so much! I need to figure something out like yesterday!

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Hattie Dizmond

Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

11y

Jamie,

The real problem is the cast iron pipes. They rust and deteriorate, which can make repairs difficult to impossible. If the pipes have copious amounts of dirt in them, the quote makes sense, because they have little to no way to find all of the leaks. I'm not sure where @Mark Gallagher came up with $150, because that will cover just the supplies, assuming a sleeve type of repair. The major cost in almost all plumbing issues is labor. Busting out sections of the foundation, digging down to the pipe and then doing the repair, covering and rebuilding the foundation are all quite labor intensive.

Did you not get a home inspection prior to closing? At the very least the inspector should have told you there were cast iron pipes, which would have raised a flag of concern.

Also, the leak may or may not prevent underwriting. It would likely depend on the type of financing. However, you know about the problem, so you would have to disclose it. Any savvy realtor will advise their client to get a quote and then ask for you to either make the repair or reduce the price.

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Hattie Dizmond
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Gautam Venkatesan:

Originally posted by @Hattie Dizmond:
Did you not get a home inspection prior to closing? At the very least the inspector should have told you there were cast iron pipes, which would have raised a flag of concern.
Hattie - how would an inspector know if there were cast iron pipes if they are buried under the foundation?
As was pointed out, if there has been a partial re-piping of the property, they likely can't. However, I do expect my inspectors to check the clean outs and the back flow valve at the main. Unless those have been replaced, it's pretty easy to identify cast iron. Also, with a lot of older houses, there will be a drain in the floor of the garage...really easy place to check.
Guess who grew up in a house built in 1949?! ;-)
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
We're missing info here. A old cast iron sewer line with leaks will most likely have multiple leaks and is not worth repairing or patching.
Is the property in Texas?
In more temperate areas you could abandon the sewer line and dig and lay a new line around the perimeter. What are the locations of the baths, kitchen and laundry? Likely some are on or near exterior walls. Depending on the layout you may not have to jackhammer large area of the slab, but just the areas to get new waste lines from the toilets or sinks to the new line at the perimeter.
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Steven G.:

@Jamie Wooley and anyone else
Performing a septic dye test on future investments is a cheap and easy way to reveal a non working sewer system. Everyone is telling you to contact plumbers, and I have to disagree due to the fact that most plumbers are not equipped/ not interested in a job that is going to require this kind of digging or tunneling(that is why they are giving you outrageous estimates). This sounds like a job for a septic company that is experienced in excavating and tunneling.
Where I am most plumbers DO want to bid those jobs. They are pretty eager to sub out the excavation to cheap labor and mark it up. It's retail all the way on that kind of bid. I have a plumbing team now that does mostly new construction. But after years of working with them we have an arrangement where they camera and identify the dig channels. I hire and manage the excavation. The plumbers come back and then my crew puts it back together after them. And then I need additional crews if replacement concrete or asphalt is involved. The OP's $15K bid is in line with the kind of retail plumbing bids I used get. Most plumbers I've worked with don't problem solve or make-it-go. They often rely on fearful homeowners who accept their fate that everything needs to replaced.
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Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
11y
Ok , some of the cameras have locaters built into them . As they camera the line , you can mark the path of the pipe . Now once it is marked you now know where to cut the concrete . You do not need a plumber to cut and break up the floor and dig up the old pipe . Hire someone else . Once it is all exposed have a small local plumber come in , set the pipe . Get bids based on an open hole . Once he is done have someone else come in and patch the holes .
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Craig E.
Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2011 · 87 posts · 56 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

...abandon the sewer line and dig and lay a new line around the perimeter...
Usually the quickest and cheapest solution.
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Federico Gutierrez
Realtor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 857 votes
11y
I don't see what the fuss is about..WHY Cause it happened to me! LOL
Very valuable lesson to learn here, scope/camera the main sewerage line from the stack to the street in every single house you put an offer one. I have a plumber that has the camera and its $190 but saves you $5K.
My question its just under your slab or does it go from the slab to the street, thats two separate problems. If its under your slab the crack then get some buddies, concrete cutter or jack hammer and dig up the slab. Its kinda fun and you'll save 1K there. I had 20ft of cast iron piping replaced with PVC and everything done up to code with pea rock put under it to avoid sinking and sagging (very important step). You can then do the concrete repair yourself or hire that out to the plumbers. Could save yourself another 1K if you do it yourself.
IF your from the slab out to the front of your house...then I can see it costing you 15K as you'll be digging up the front of the house and maybe the street. But get a good plumber to camera your line and identify where the crack(s) is. Hope it helps you.
No conventional financing lender will allow a buyer to buy that house as you know its a latent defect you need to disclose and it effects the working order of the house. You'll just get another investor who will buy it from you. Just cough it up to a learning experience like I did myself.
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Federico Gutierrez
Realtor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 857 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:

Ok , some of the cameras have locaters built into them . As they camera the line , you can mark the path of the pipe . Now once it is marked you now know where to cut the concrete . You do not need a plumber to cut and break up the floor and dig up the old pipe . Hire someone else . Once it is all exposed have a small local plumber come in , set the pipe . Get bids based on an open hole . Once he is done have someone else come in and patch the holes .
His right, Its an RF transmitter and then the plumber has what looks like a metal detector and can locate the transmitter X feet down.
You won't need to cut all the slab but you will need two holes min (this you can do yourself) The plumber will need to snap the cast iron at either end then pull of thru, either in one long piece or snap into a few pieces. Its heavy and messy if its sunk into the ground over many years (this you can't do yourself)
Then the jnr plumber will the one laying the new pipe down or curling under the slab. Don't think the snr plumber will do that, but you watch them charge you for two plumbers even thou only one is working! ensure you have enough pitch too, last thing you want is to fix the pipe and water just sits there not draining/flowing out (thats a lawsuit waiting to happen)
Once its connected just recamera it for piece of mind. (Plumber goes home here)

you can fill it up and concrete it (or sub it out)
I got pictures of all these steps if your confused, PM to discuss more
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Randy Landman
Investor · Lake Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 39 votes
11y
I'm going to have this same problem some day. I have a cast iron pipe under a slab that has some roots in it. I had them cut out and keep them at bay by using some foaming root killer every 3 months. It's been over 6 years with no back ups and I haven't had to cabled the line again. But someday I'm sure it will break. Has anyone every tried a trenchless pipe repair? There are different techniques, but it basically creates a new pipe within the existing pipe where the damage is at. Of course that reduces the diameter of your pipe slightly. I had a bid done for it once and I think it was around $3,000 for a 15 foot repair. Much less messy than digging up the slab. But I've never talked to anyone that had one done to see if they were happy with the job.
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Christopher Telles
Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2015 · 373 posts · 205 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Shawn Thom:

If you are going to do rehabs in DFW, especially older homes, get used to it. As others have said anytime you fix a foundation on an older home, just expect it to happen.
I have had a few of these. I've found plumbers that will fix breaks for $1000-$2000. I've actually paid as little as $800. If it is in the middle of the house they will sledge hammer through the concrete and fix them, then re-concrete. I'd be cautious about jackhammer through it in case you hit a tension line etc.
I had a buddy that had his whole underslab sewer lines changed for $5500 at a house in Dallas. It was 2 bathroom and about 2200sq ft. I think it was Quality foundation and plumbing. They work with a lot of investors.
Once they are done make sure they do a static test.
I work with a guy that sold his personal house. He knocked $10k off the price because he didn't want to deal with it. If you jack hammer through the concrete that means redoing the floors too.
Shawn, we have quite a few homes in So Cal with concrete foundations. I'm relatively new to the fixNflip channel in real estate, although have extensive experience in the commercial realm, and have never heard the term "tension line". What are you referring to? Thx
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Andy WebbPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Carrollton, TX · Member since 2013 · 750 posts · 538 votes
11y
@Christopher Telles - I think this site gives a good explanation of the post-tension cables that Shawn was referencing. I am not sure when these came into broad use.
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-post-tension-sla...
Andy
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Shawn Thom
Investor · McKinney, TX · Member since 2012 · 588 posts · 224 votes
11y
@Christopher Telles, what @Andy Webb noted was correct. I have not personally experienced it, but I've heard if you break or cut one of those post tension cables it is big problems.
I bought a flip house where perimeter lines were alreday done like @Account Closed mentioned. It appeared to be a very good solution
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:

Ok , some of the cameras have locaters built into them . As they camera the line , you can mark the path of the pipe . Now once it is marked you now know where to cut the concrete . You do not need a plumber to cut and break up the floor and dig up the old pipe . Hire someone else . Once it is all exposed have a small local plumber come in , set the pipe . Get bids based on an open hole . Once he is done have someone else come in and patch the holes .
I thought all scopes had locators. Otherwise whats the point? I suppose you could use the number of feet out on the line. But if you didn't have a sewer map (both interior and to the street) you'd have no idea where the break or root intrusion is. I go right to camera on the second call for any sewer issues. It's expensive but it's never been a waste of money so far.
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Shawn Thom:

@Christopher Telles, what @Andy Webb noted was correct. I have not personally experienced it, but I've heard if you break or cut one of those post tension cables it is big problems.
I bought a flip house where perimeter lines were alreday done like @Account Closed mentioned. It appeared to be a very good solution
I bought a 1990s construction slab house last year. I had an issue with a leak near an outdoor spigot on an exterior wall. Because the wet soil was making the slab damp near the wall inside the living room, I assumed that there was a leak under the slab from a supply line. Upon further investigation, there were no supply lines or waste lines under the house. 3/2 1400 square feet. All supply and waste lines were perimeter to the exterior walls of the kitchen, baths and laundry. Obviously not every floor plan lends itself to that. But we appear to be evolving in our understanding of under slab plumbing. :)
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Hattie Dizmond
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Mark Gallagher:

@Hattie Dizmond
@Maggie Tasseron
As I said I'm no expert in slabs. It's commonplace here to use rubber sleeves but that's "above" grade in the basement. That being said, $15,000 still would be outrageous to replace all of the pipe, in my opinion. At the very least, the OP needs more bids.
Hey Mark, wasn't slamming you at all, just trying to acknowledge to Jamie that I had actually read the comments! So many folks will jump on a thread and act like they are the first person to comment, which puts some of the statements out of context.
As for the $15k cost, it really depends with below slab systems. If there are indeed multiple points of failure in the system, some of which can't even be identified, because the lines are filled with roots and dirt, it may be necessary to expose the entire system for a visual inspection/replacements. If you take a look at the picture Rocky posted, you can see the effect of tunneling under the foundation to replace the system and how incredibly labor intensive that would be. Again, if the entire system has been compromised, replacing the cast iron pipes is the only way to completely remediate the problem. Anything else would be akin to sticking chewing gum in a damn.
I believe most sleeve type repairs around here are done with an iron sleeve, but I could be wrong. Most of the sectional repairs I've observed on cast iron systems were accomplished by cutting the section out and replacing it. The joints and joinery look a lot like fixtures used for creating conduit from galvanized pipe...at least they do to me.
There are a lot of investors I know - some very successful ones - who will only buy properties on a slab foundation. This is a perfect example of why I prefer pier & beam, with a crawl space. Slab has 2 bad (in my opinion) options...1) The pipes are laid under a foot of dirt and 4" - 6" of concrete. 2) The pipes run through the attic, which has a tendency to rattle, when the hot water is turned on, and is not a pretty situation, when a leak occurs.
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Jamie Wooley
OP
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 142 posts · 44 votes
11y
Well I just wanted to update everyone and say THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP AND INSIGHT! BP is amazing and it's people like you that reassure me there are still others willing to help out and offer good advice so rookies like myself can make it in the REI world.
I have now had another company that an investor friend suggested and he too told me a similar price of $13,000. To go into a little more detail the clean outs are right in front of the house like 2 feet away, there is no going to the street. (I have seen that mentioned a few times) I have had it tested with the isolation and camera and there are at minimum 6-7 leaks half of them root penetration from very large trees surrounding the foundation. Which with some research tells me there more. I assume it would be best just to redo the entire plumbing so now I am just calling to get estimates from different companies. I will spend most of my day tomorrow doing that and then go from there once I get a few firm estimates.
@Hattie Dizmond I know you have asked twice now about the inspection. No, I did not get an inspection on this property. Yes, I know it is the smart thing to do. This house was for sell quickly and others were in line to buy it. I walked the property and knew what I needed to budget to get it fixed. I did not however know to do a hydrostatic test, even after reading all of the many many books (I either missed it or forgot). Maybe very basic for others but for a new investor like myself that has not run into this issue before I was clueless. Lesson learned the HARD way but I will not make the mistake again. The big ticket items like foundation, roof and HVAC were all looked at and I knew what was going on with them. I just did not know about the plumbing and will educate myself further before purchasing my next property.
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Gautam Venkatesan
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 619 posts · 128 votes
11y
@Jamie Wooley I love your attitude given the situation you are in. Fix it, sell it, learn from this and move on to bigger and better things! Best of luck with the repairs. It would be great if you could post some pictures of the repairs as it progresses so we can all get educated together. Thanks!
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Brett S.
Investor · Kalamazoo, MI · Member since 2014 · 60 posts · 25 votes
11y
hate to be the voice of bad news here but I had a similar problem and the quotes (more than one) that I got were $15k to $20k just to replace the main (not anything else inside the house).
Luckily the inspector caught it and I was able to back out of the deal.
I think the quote you got is pretty close to reality.
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Steven G.
Investor · Walden, NY · Member since 2015 · 49 posts · 43 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Steven G.:
@Jamie Wooley and anyone else
Performing a septic dye test on future investments is a cheap and easy way to reveal a non working sewer system. Everyone is telling you to contact plumbers, and I have to disagree due to the fact that most plumbers are not equipped/ not interested in a job that is going to require this kind of digging or tunneling(that is why they are giving you outrageous estimates). This sounds like a job for a septic company that is experienced in excavating and tunneling.
Where I am most plumbers DO want to bid those jobs. They are pretty eager to sub out the excavation to cheap labor and mark it up. It's retail all the way on that kind of bid. I have a plumbing team now that does mostly new construction. But after years of working with them we have an arrangement where they camera and identify the dig channels. I hire and manage the excavation. The plumbers come back and then my crew puts it back together after them. And then I need additional crews if replacement concrete or asphalt is involved. The OP's $15K bid is in line with the kind of retail plumbing bids I used get. Most plumbers I've worked with don't problem solve or make-it-go. They often rely on fearful homeowners who accept their fate that everything needs to replaced.
Yes you have it right some plumbers are eager to "mark up" any job that they can overcharge someone on. The plumber's work/involvement is minimal here, so I prefer to not pay them a mint to make a few connections when in reality the most critical part of the job involves excavation. As someone already pointed out get an estimate from a local plumber once the excavation has taken place.
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Stephanie Goodman
Real Estate Broker · Waterford, MI · Member since 2015 · 67 posts · 23 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Manolo D.:

Originally posted by @Char Prado:
In VA/DC/MD we have "HomeAdvisor.com", they're probably regional. You can go online type in what the "symptoms" are but don't tell them you know what is really going on...let them tell you. You will get about 3 immediate calls maybe more. Quotes are free, be present, ask all questions of them, check for license, Ins and references. Do they warranty their work?
Hope your troubles aren't so major. Let us know what happens.
Char
As a contractor myself, I would not recommend wasting time on HomeAdvisor or Craigslist or Thumbtack or even Yelp, they are a joke in the industry and 90% of the time, they tend to screw up, the problem in question is very complex and the companies on those websites might not have the right tools, experience, or speed to do the job. As we say, they are only good at changing faucets, and maybe an angle stop. They might guarantee their work with a written letter and even notarized, but how long will it take them to come back and do the actual work? You could put all the words you want, but who is going to pay for the delays? especially if you are flipping it and will cost you $xxx/day in holding. I would go with bigger companies who already own the right tools to do this job and don't have to "rent" them, it will all square out, cheap contractor + tool rents = bigger companies + their overhead - tool rentals. At least, if you get the same problem, you will get the work done within the week, and not get an answer like "oh, this is not the leak I repaired, it will cost you another $xxx for this". Do it right the first time, it might hit your pocket but at least you don't have to pay twice for the same job satisfaction.
That's not true at all. Home advisor charges contractors to be on their list so the companies on there are at least sophisticated enough to have a marketing budget. Craigslist is free so it's hit or miss.
My family owns one of the largest roofing companies in the area ($8mil +) and we do very well with on online advertising sources, including Home Advisor, Yelp, Angie's List, etc. Just remember that they are ADVERTISING companies. They do little to no screening beyond making sure that you are a real company, so your own due diligence is still required.
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Manolo D.
Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y
You might be among the top 1% of the company that use those, having a budget doesn't really determine the stability, ability to perform, and skill level of a company. I had 10 subs come out for a "bid" on an average size project of mine (about 50k), all emailed me that my project is "too complicated" for them. So I still stand with my statement, some are out there but majority doesn't have what it takes, at least for me they don't. If you have a good system and figured out how to catch a unicorn in enrolling and using these sites, then that is a skill itself, most just enroll and TRY to use it.
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Jason S.
Plumber · Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 16 posts · 6 votes
10y
Wow. I am a plumber and owner of a company. We do tunnels and repipes on a regular basis in Houston. Some of this advice is a joke and totally wrong. I'm amazed at how people offer advice to others as if they are a pro. What a shame to be on the receiving end of this and not know any better.
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Paul Bojinov
Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 21 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Jason S.:

Wow. I am a plumber and owner of a company. We do tunnels and repipes on a regular basis in Houston. Some of this advice is a joke and totally wrong. I'm amazed at how people offer advice to others as if they are a pro. What a shame to be on the receiving end of this and not know any better.
People are trying to help. No one claimed to be a "pro" except you. Now what will the OP do with your advice or there is part two coming?
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John PearsonPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Neptune Beach, FL · Member since 2008 · 44 posts · 9 votes
10y
Did the seller disclose a problem with the sewer? Seems like they would have known, maybe some $$ recourse here.
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Corby GoadeBusiness Member
Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
10y
I am actually dealing with the exact same problem in my personal home right now. While $15K seems very high, keep in mind, cutting the concrete, trenching, installing the new drains and replacing the concrete is very labor intensive and very messy. You've had a couple people suggest trenching outside and running the sewer line around the house, which would be the least invasive and probably least expensive solution. If you can operate a shovel, saw and ABS glue, you could probably do the job yourself for the $150 mentioned above. However, there is a possibility of pipe bursting- have you checked in to this? Basically, a machine will pull a new drain under your slab at the same time it is destroying your old cast iron ones. It would require much less concrete cutting and it's much less messy. Just Google "pipe bursting Wylie Tx," and get some bids. Best of luck!
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Theodore Rivera
Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 76 posts · 35 votes
10y
Hi Jaime, Sorry to hear of your troubles. As stated by @Ricky V, a tunnel will need to be dug the length of your drain pipes under your home. Cutting of your foundation is not a viable option. The structural integrity of the home would be comprised. $15k is probably a a bit on the high end but within the cost of getting a tunnel dug under your home, and having the drain pipes replaced. Shop around, I am sure you will find someone out there that can do the job a more reasonable cost. Wishing you the best!
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