Cost of painting vs DIY
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Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
9yIf you can cut in free-hand, do it. I don't even bother getting interior brush and roll painting bids anymore. I would if I lived in Akron, though. Sheesh that's cheap! Exterior spraying I do hire.
I do all I can to make sure I'm cutting in as much as possible. That's my highest and best use. I hire my 2 boys and their buddys for washing, floor protecting and first coat rolling. Gives them experience and the all important principle that work = money. They will NOT end up in my basement :)
62 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes9y
@Sarah D. the big thing with painters is their equipment, experience and most importantly size of their crew. They will have everything taped and covered so they can move very fast. I have always painted and I am very good at it. Recently I have tried to hire it out to save time. Local paint crews cost way too much money and it is hard to get them in quickly. I am just not big enough to demand immediate response.
I tried Craigslist and it was a HUGE mistake. They showed up late and told me they needed 6 gallons of paint for a living room and kitchen. It seemed high, but I got it for them. I showed up to check progress and there was paint all over the trim, like half the trim covered. Apparently one of the guys on their crew was new. Guy told me he was scared to fire him because the guy is violent (oh my). They did finish the job and cleaned off the trim. Then he billed me $600 for three guys there for four hours. They were all slow and part of the billed time included fixing the trim. I was left with over four gallons of paint not used. Rather than argue, I paid the guy and deleted his phone number. Life is too short.
I do have good tips for painting yourself:
- Use high quality paint. I use Sherwin Williams Pro Mar 200. It is low odor and it is thick paint. Thick paint covers in one coat and doesn't drip and make a mess. I can easily get paint match in the future, so touch up is easy.
- I have the property professionally cleaned, including wiping down walls. I hate painting a dirty property and I hate cleaning. I can get cleaning crews in fast and cheap, so I let them make it pretty before I show up.
- Tape all your trim and use drop cloths. Taping takes a ton of time, but once that is done you can move fast.
- Don't paint the ceilings unless you have to. You can usually leave a ceiling. It may not be bright white, but if the walls are tan, you will never notice. Early on I painted all ceilings, but it is a huge time savings since I stopped doing it.
- Consider whether you need to paint at all. If you buy good paint (like the Sherwin Williams I mentioned) then you can probably get away with wiping down and touch up. Sometimes you can touch up one wall and paint another wall in the same room. Light makes imperfections show more, so maybe you can avoid painting a window wall and just paint the wall across from it. Again, the key is having good matching paint.
I think I will keep painting, mainly because I can do it quickly. I will stay until 1AM or work weekends to get it done, so I can show the property faster. Lost rent is a greater expense to me, so I can't afford to wait for a paint crew to show up. I recently had my eight year old daughter start painting. She really did a good job, so it is a way to put some money in her pocket as a business expense.
You had issues with hiring from Craigslist? No! *Sarcasm*
I don't know why but I have a habit of getting burnt on CL and then going back and doing it all over again. I've started doing background checks on people I hire because a) I intend on using them often in the future and if they have a shady past I should know about it and b) I'm inviting these people onto my property, doing business and if something doesn't turn out to my satisfaction, I don't want to get shanked. Oh, and I guess c) I like to occasionally take my young son with me to check up on job sites so there is that too.
Some good tips though, and I agree, sometimes it's worth just doing it yourself because of the turn around time and potential loss of rental revenue. There's no shame in getting dirty and knowing your business. When contractors can try to convince you that red is blue, you can confidently tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Lucas P.:
You had issues with hiring from Craigslist? No! *Sarcasm*
I don't know why but I have a habit of getting burnt on CL and then going back and doing it all over again. I've started doing background checks on people I hire because a) I intend on using them often in the future and if they have a shady past I should know about it and b) I'm inviting these people onto my property, doing business and if something doesn't turn out to my satisfaction, I don't want to get shanked. Oh, and I guess c) I like to occasionally take my young son with me to check up on job sites so there is that too.
Some good tips though, and I agree, sometimes it's worth just doing it yourself because of the turn around time and potential loss of rental revenue. There's no shame in getting dirty and knowing your business. When contractors can try to convince you that red is blue, you can confidently tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.
I have had good experience on Craigslist too. I asked one guy if he was insured and he said, "you think for what I charge I can afford insurance." Then he hung up on me.
I heard a tip once to find good people, go to Home Depot early in the morning or at night then find work vehicles in the parking. I take pictures of phone numbers on trucks in the parking lot. If they are there early in the morning or late at night, you know they are hard workers. I found a good handyman that way.
Originally posted by @John Weidner:
2000 sq ft for $1500....ceilings, trim, walls
The quality is decent (no overspray, etc). It meets all expectations of any upper middle class renters. i invest in 5 different markets. The labor costs may vary a bit, but across all 5 markets, including Austin and Dallas this is my cost. Don't hire contractors, who show up in a pressed shirt, can speak both Spanish and English and do zero work but pocket a fat margin. Instead, learn a little Spanish and hire the workers directly, those actually doing the painting.
- Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 710 posts · 200 votes9y
I like the Spanish tip.
Just curious on scale - running in 5 markets you negotiate direct for a $1500 paint job? I find it hard to maintain the guy's who do a good job because at some point they realize hey I'm doing a good job at a cheap price I can get more. It's a churn at least in Chicago
@Joe Splitrock Thanks for the tips! This is for a full remodel, but for turn arounds I will be minimizing the amount of painting to touch ups and wall cleaning. Definitely going to see if I can hire out the wall cleaning, lots of good advice about that.
@Jon Q. Funny you say that, my #2 goal of the year is to learn Spanish for just that reason (and because I live in SoCal; who doesn't know Spanish here?). Agreed about the GC; I learned that lesson when getting quotes early on. I'd much rather source out the things I need from the direct laborers than have the one stop shop with the 30%+ markup.
As other's have asked, how do you find good painters across multiple markets?
- Investor · Athens, GA · Member since 2016 · 31 posts · 12 votes9y
I agree with Silvio and others who say hire it out to one guy that just needs the work. Investing in painting equipment really pays off but it takes more time than you think to learn how to apply paint to any surface. If you DIY, be careful not to rush the prep work, id recommend using a shop vacuum or dust mop on your walls if you sand them. A good prep job makes a project go quicker and last longer.
Think about your time vs $ when deciding to do it yourself.
750 sq ft interior
Experienced painter-16 hours x($20-$25)= $320-$400 labor, plus materials
DIY-16-24 hours x ($0)=$0-labor, plus materials
Understand that you won't be able to match the speed of a professional, but it may be worth your time to hire someone who has professional experience. Consider how much you make per hour and decide from there. I'm a painter by trade and I'd hire it out to a reliable guy rather than a company.
That being said I bid 730 sf yesterday to a family friend at $1100, with a condition I'd take $100 off if she would make us lunch one day... Her ribs are to die for LOL!
- Lockport , NY · Member since 2014 · 265 posts · 124 votes9y
painting party!!! bunch of friends, pizza, beer, great music = priceless.
Originally posted by @Nathan Gornto:
I agree with Silvio and others who say hire it out to one guy that just needs the work. Investing in painting equipment really pays off but it takes more time than you think to learn how to apply paint to any surface. If you DIY, be careful not to rush the prep work, id recommend using a shop vacuum or dust mop on your walls if you sand them. A good prep job makes a project go quicker and last longer.
Think about your time vs $ when deciding to do it yourself.
750 sq ft interior
Experienced painter-16 hours x($20-$25)= $320-$400 labor, plus materials
DIY-16-24 hours x ($0)=$0-labor, plus materials
Understand that you won't be able to match the speed of a professional, but it may be worth your time to hire someone who has professional experience. Consider how much you make per hour and decide from there. I'm a painter by trade and I'd hire it out to a reliable guy rather than a company.
That being said I bid 730 sf yesterday to a family friend at $1100, with a condition I'd take $100 off if she would make us lunch one day... Her ribs are to die for LOL!
There is also the additional cost of time of DIY vs pros.
I can paint house. But if I am getting off work at 5, getting to the job site at 6 and work till 11 or so, it takes me 5 days to get that 24 hours in . If that means our rental stays open because tenants cant move in, or on a flip that we lose a week or two because other contractors cant get in, then in that case it cost us a couple grand to paint in holding costs or missed rent. OR that keeps us from managing that project or other projects around us.
If my wife and I want to speed things up we might paint a front door, or 1 room. Something that doesnt change the critical path to getting the project done. Because that is your real cost of painting.
@Bart H. I agree with your analysis, unless the cost of doing it 3 days faster = 1 month's rent. That's the issue I'm facing, so until I find the right people for this I'll keep painting.
All in all on this project we are losing ~$6k in rent by doing things ourselves, but saving at least $25k (this is across all renovations, not just painting). Plus all of the project management experience and first hand knowledge gained, to make it so much easier to hire things out. But I'm looking forward to the day where I'm just managing a project instead of doing so much of the work.
Thanks for everyone's great tips and tricks! I never imagined I'd gain so much valuable knowledge from a whiny post I made while procrastinating getting work done.
Not hard. Start by asking brokers and screening painters on Craigslist. Ask questions so you can determine if they do the work themselves and are not contractors. I typically call those with Mexican last names first. If you ask estimated price to paint 1,000 sq ft home usually their answer will give it away. Contractors will usually give you an estimate of 2-3x what a worker will.
Negotiate on price until they give up. Then, once you estimate materials for job, you've just found their margin. Pay workers a fair price, no more no less.
Originally posted by @John Weidner:
I like the Spanish tip.
Just curious on scale - running in 5 markets you negotiate direct for a $1500 paint job? I find it hard to maintain the guy's who do a good job because at some point they realize hey I'm doing a good job at a cheap price I can get more. It's a churn at least in Chicago
That's life John. I do regulatory churn through workers, brokers, and others because they get greedy and don't want to work that hard. That's okay, because I demand the best quality work from people I work with at fair prices. It's a big reason that I generate the kind of returns I do.
- Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 222 posts · 58 votes9y
Just depends on how much your time is worth
Originally posted by @David Zheng:
@Jon Q. Really? I talked to 4 different painters and they were all in the 10-15k range for that space. Is Cali really that cheap that you can get wall to ceiling/trim painted over 3500 sq. painted for only 5k?
I'm not actively investing in CA. Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, Charlotte and other markets.
Yes, really.
Originally posted by @Sarah D.:
@David Zheng I can't find those kinds of prices either. I think @Jon Q. might've found a great side business helping the rest of us find a reasonable cost painters ;)
Sarah,
If you can calculate the cost of materials, which you can, then you can certainly calculate the cost of reasonable labor cost. You can also do that. So you should know approximately what you should be paying in each market. It's not rocket science.
@Jon Q. I agree and have. I just haven't found the right people yet. Working on it, but you don't develop your team overnight. And, given that painting is something I can do well, I focused on finding all of the other subcontractors for tasks I cannot do. Your tips have been great though, and I will definitely use them as I continue to find a painter that does good work at a good price. Thank you for all of your advice!
- Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes9y
My take on it is if you're willing to trade your time for money ("savings"), sell everything and go get a W2 j.o.b.
Painters know painting - you don't need to. Exploit your strengths and hire out your weaknesses.
I can always get more money (some folks reading this just had heart attacks).
More Time? Not so much.
My $0.02 ...
@David Dachtera While I do agree with you, right now we're not in a position to leave sweat equity on the table. I liken it to a startup, where for the first year the CEO is taking out the trash and the VP of Research is restocking supply cabinets; sometimes you taken on activities outside your role when resources are limited and you are just starting to build your business.
I've taken away a lot from this thread, both better ways to paint and better ways to find painters. Thanks to everyone for their helpful comments!
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes9y
When you spray , its better to have someone to backroll the walls . You basically have the 2nd person go over the wall just after you spray it . Why ? when you spray you get a very smooth finish , like painting a car , if and when you touch up with a roller it doesnt blend in .
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes9y
Sarah: don't sweat it - you are on the right track. Painting is labor intensive. I don't live in a very expensive market but no way we're getting anyone decent here to paint 2k sf for $1500. I have a couple of guys I use for my "oleo" projects - change a stack boot; put in an eave vent; etc - and even using those guys (yes, they are Hispanic) we spent $1300 (material included) just to do ceilings on a 1500 sfooter back in the spring. The ceilings weren't flat, so that added to it, but even if they were flat no way could I have had the rest of the place done for that price.
When available, I try to use cheap labor for easy stuff - relatives, friends, etc, anyone looking to pick up a few bucks that I don't have to pay as a professional. Then I do (or have done) the more difficult stuff, and they run a roller or tape off trim.
Skyline Properties - Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes9y
As a startup, NOW is the time to establish your disciplines.
You'll find that successful investors do this. Otherwise, it's just a hobby and your W2 is and will always remain your primary source of income.
Treat REI as a hobby and it will pay you as a hobby.
Treat REI as a business and it will pay you as a business.
It may be "painful" financially, at first. We've all been there or soon will be. In the end, the benefit far outweighs the discomfort.
If you can't do the deal without "sweat equity", it may be best to move on to one where you can.
One of the people in my group did both on his first deal. It was a huge house, and there was no way he could have done it all himself. Being a laid-off construction carpenter, he paid himself to do what he's always done and supervised the crews he hired to do what he couldn't.
In the end, however, he was the team leader, and now does little or nothing himself - only quick one-off jobs that are too urgent to wait for someone else's schedule.
Get used to delegating or get used to limited success. It's that simple.
Originally posted by @David Zheng:
@Jon Q. But actually if you can help me find a painter next time for a similar job and negotiate that kind of price, I'll give you 15% of the money I save just for negotiating for me haha
Thanks for offer, but I'm not interested. Time is $ and I have less of the former.
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