My experience with a turn-key flip company

My experience with a turn-key flip company

Flipper/Rehabber · York, UK · Member since 2013 · 895 posts · 453 votes

This post is a summary of my experience doing an out of state flip with a turn-key flip company. I am posting because there is very little information about this organization online and other potential investors should have some insight before they decide to try this.

The Back Story:

First, I have some experience flipping. My first flip was done remotely (Biker Bar Success Story). I've done a few at home as well, so I feel confident analyzing deals etc. A lender who I met on BP markets for a company in Illinois called Chase Foreclosure. They advertise themselves as a full service flip company for remote investors. They help you acquire properties (foreclosure which they sell or assign to you), manage the rehab, then list and sell the property. It sounded wonderful to me while I was managing my business from Asia & South America.

As part of my due diligence I googled them and found nothing. I searched BP and found one forum question. And I asked for references but was told they weren't able to give out contact info (red flag #1). I decided it was worth the risk to try one deal with them.

The Process:

The purchase process went okay. The lender screwed a few things up and no one communicated with me about delays or issues except for one stellar woman at the lawyer's office. Communication with Chase was also slow (48 hours for a call back, email response rare).

The rehab went more quickly than expected and stayed on budget. 

I used their add-on services for lawn/snow care and what they call "quality control" which is someone who goes to the property every 2 weeks to take photos and inform me of any issues. The lawn care did their job, but didn't notify me when my contract was up so I thought my snow was being shoveled and it wasn't. The QC did send a report and make comments but failed to identify an active leak in the ceiling (a realtor spotted it during a showing!) and did not communicate the extent that the new paint job on the kitchen cabinets was peeling off.

The house was listed sooner than expected but it sat there for 3 months with 3 showings and no offers. The pictures were poor quality so I ordered professional ones. I called to discuss listing strategy and was told "it was a slow market". I did my own market research which showed that their listings sat on market an average of 6 months and sold 87% below list price. Meanwhile homes in my area were selling under 60 days at 97% of list. I fired them as listing agents and hired a new agent.

The new agent walked through the house and sent detailed pictures of the state it was in. Snow was not shoveled. The interior was dirty, paint had dripped all over the fireplace. The kitchen cabinets weren't painted properly and were peeling. Cabinet doors were installed badly. Basically it was not in good showing condition. The contractor did send someone out to correct the problems, but they still did a bad job, so I paid someone else to fix it. 

Current Situation:

The property is still listed but at a lower price. It is getting more attention but no offers yet. The ARV was significantly incorrect and I'm facing a loss. I am considering holding it as a rental.

What I Learned:

  1. At each stage I was not protected by contracts. They did not represent me when I bought the house. There was no formal contract with the rehab contractor. Only when I listed was I a legal client. When I raised any issues it felt like they protected each other rather than looking out for me.
  2. The system is designed so everyone makes money along the way regardless of whether the investor does or not. That is a red flag as there is less incentive for them to ensure my success.
  3. No references is a big problem. I happened to run into another of their clients through my own networks and he was wrapping up two failed deals with them. He took a net loss and was very unhappy. He too was given a lot of excuses about why his deal was unusual and that the rest of their investors were making money. When I told them I had talked to him they assured me they had lots of clients who were doing well... but I still couldn't talk to them.
  4. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I was disappointed that things didn't go well, I really wanted it to work, but I am happy if by sharing my own experience I can save someone else a loss.

Got Questions? 

Feel free to PM me or post in the comments if you have other questions, or if you found this helpful. I'm always looking for solid deals and ethical partners!

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Lindenhurst/1903-Fairfield-Rd-60046/home/17743493

Keywords: Chase Foreclosure, out of state flip, remote flip, Bob Green, Christian Chase

4Reply
79 views

Most Popular Reply

Flipper/Rehabber · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2017 · 130 posts · 72 votes
8y

@Micki M.

You are no doubt in a different world than me in terms of experience, meaning a lot more experienced than I am. I am only in my first two flips right now as we speak (still...unfortunately)...so take my thought with a grain of salt for sure. Having said that, I am curious as to your reasoning on moving forward with a deal that was already at 83% of ARV to begin with, especially considering the added risk (perceived or otherwise) of doing it remotely? That seems like a dangerously low margin to begin with.

I can empathize though with much of what you said, and specifically the challenges of doing this remotely as both flips happen to be remote for me, in two different states no less.  Once my current projects finish (if ever!), I will likely have more legitimate of a reason to post my story of how these two rehabs fared in the “not so successful real estate investing stories” much moreso than “successful real estate investing stories”. Live and learn, cost of education, etc and so on.  Still is no fun. All that to say, I get it. 

See this reply in the discussion

39 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Flipper/Rehabber · York, UK · Member since 2013 · 895 posts · 453 votes
    8y

    @Antoine Che doing turn key for out of state rentals is an entirely different thing, and can be a great option just do your due diligence and get recommendations.  Turn key rehab would mean exactly what you expect. I labeled it that way because that was the expectation that I got from my initial discussions, and it feels like that is what is presented on their website. You can see the response above saying that isn't true so perhaps there was a miscommunication. However, my experience was that I was assigned a contractor (as in "this guy is your contractor") not told to interview options, and when I recently checked the scope of work provided it says on their "Client: Chase" not "Client: my name". There's a discrepancy in what is said and what is done in my opinion.  Good luck with your investing!

  • Lender · Mokena, IL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 261 votes
    8y

    I am the hard money lender who handles many of this firms investor clients. I have personally arranged financing for 100's of properties purchased using their system. Gauging results based on one property is not enough of a sample when working with any type of investment that includes an element of risk. Christian and Cristy have been in business for over 20+ years with over 7000 foreclosure fix and flip homes sold to investors.

    What makes their system unique is that all of these sales ARE public record. It's totally transparent.

    Is there risk? YES! - Just like with any other business venture. Do some people lose? OF COURSE! There are no guarantees. Most experienced investors will tell you they have been dealt a lemon and lost money in the real estate game. Do many investors succeed? YES! Many more investors profit than lose money. This investing system is set up to win and minimize your chance of losing.

    Click Here For Their Guide To Investing: http://chaseforeclosure.com/guide-to-investing/

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Micki M. did you say you had a $240k ARV and have dropped down around $200k with offers of $190k? Who made such an error on the ARV? Did the market shift or was the original ARV off? There sounds like some good and some bad with this type of model. Hopefully your deal was an exception and not the norm.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · York, UK · Member since 2013 · 895 posts · 453 votes
    8y

    @Brian Pulaski yep those are the numbers. I think the issue has two parts. One is that I'm not familiar with the area so it was hard for me to research the numbers I was given, and also the company points out that they work statewide so while they have an overview of the larger market they may not know the local ins and outs as well. Secondly, the choices made during the rehab and the quality of work were poor. Obvious items that turn off buyers like stained ceilings and broken window seals were not addressed. I just got my second buyer's inspection report back and the whole attic is full of mold. That's something that would have been easily spotted and should have been included in the original scope of work.

    At the end of the day, I'm suffering because I've never seen the house and I trusted other people to evaluate it and treat it the way I would. Lesson learned.  As Bob says above, one property is certainly not the way to judge their operation. However, no one is talking about success stories, and the other people I've heard from have told me about 10 deals that have lost money. I'm not trying to sabotage anyone, but I feel this kind of information needs to be out there. Any investors who are doing great deals with them or other providers should definitely speak up.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2017 · 130 posts · 72 votes
    8y

    @Micki M.

    You are no doubt in a different world than me in terms of experience, meaning a lot more experienced than I am. I am only in my first two flips right now as we speak (still...unfortunately)...so take my thought with a grain of salt for sure. Having said that, I am curious as to your reasoning on moving forward with a deal that was already at 83% of ARV to begin with, especially considering the added risk (perceived or otherwise) of doing it remotely? That seems like a dangerously low margin to begin with.

    I can empathize though with much of what you said, and specifically the challenges of doing this remotely as both flips happen to be remote for me, in two different states no less.  Once my current projects finish (if ever!), I will likely have more legitimate of a reason to post my story of how these two rehabs fared in the “not so successful real estate investing stories” much moreso than “successful real estate investing stories”. Live and learn, cost of education, etc and so on.  Still is no fun. All that to say, I get it. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Micki M. so the company sends over the information (buy price, rehab costs and ARV) which you then research yourself? I imagine trying to land on a solid ARV from out of state would be tough, but it is a lesson in never trust the ARV of a company who makes money selling you a property/project. I see this with local wholesalers, ARVs that are inflated and unrealistic, but they do that to sell you on their house.

    Good luck on getting rid of this place and moving forward.

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 172 posts · 38 votes
    8y

    Thanks for sharing your story

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 54 posts · 6 votes
    8y

    @Micki M. I'm sorry to hear this nightmare of a story. I've been following Chase Real Estate and speaking to one of their agents. Being a newbie I love the system they have in place. With that said I'm local so I can actually see the properties first hand and run my own comps before jumping in. The properties I've been sent by email don't seem to have enough meat on the bone so I will keep waiting. I would probably looking at a price point a little lower than yours because of down payment, etc... I hope you are able to sell your place soon.

    Hip

  • Flipper/Rehabber · WEST HEMPSTEAD, NY · Member since 2009 · 119 posts · 10 votes
    8y

    Yeah, if it sounds to good to be true then i usually is. I am pretty sure your gut was telling you not to do it in the beginning.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · York, UK · Member since 2013 · 895 posts · 453 votes
    8y

    @Deric Dotson looking back there were a lot of bumps on the road to closing and I would now see that as an indication that I should walk away. 

    Just an update that this house is sold. It took 11 months to sell. I had four buyers walk away after inspection without even trying to negotiate. By the time I got to buyer #5 I had done an additional $10k in work which made the house palatable. With an original ARV of $249k, I never received an offer over $191k which is the price it sold for (not counting an additional $3500 in inspection repairs). I was all in at $60k and got $13k of that back (partly due to a kind friend who listed it for free), so a fairly hefty loss.

    Lessons I will use to improve my processes in the future:
    1. always have your own eyes or a trusted project manager's eyes on the house so you can determine the correct scope of work from the start. 
    2. If you're struggling to justify an ARV in a market you don't personally know, don't rely on that number. (Being an agent and an experienced investor I did my own CMA and undercut the $249 ARV I was given with $220k, which was a reasonable number for a house in really good condition. However the market is slower in that area and my rehab didn't match that level of finish, so that's where the discrepancy happened)
    3. Be clear on how the people you're working with make their money and make sure you're comfortable if their success is not tied to your success in some way. 
    4. Get solid references for anyone you haven't worked with before and do all your due diligence.

    It's a relief to be able to move on.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · WEST HEMPSTEAD, NY · Member since 2009 · 119 posts · 10 votes
    8y

    Yeah, but now you know and your next one will be successful.

  • Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 172 posts · 47 votes
    7y

    @Micki M. Thanks for sharing the experience . I will run away the other direction - if I hear the word "turn key flipping " . I think there are various red signals here . Let me first state that , when I spoke to the company , I did have various questions which were not answered to my satisfaction so I never even considered working with them . From your post I dont think they did a good job . 

    Keeping that aside - as you are an investor with some experience earlier , I think the majority of blame resides with you . you obviously have tried to learn as much as possible from the scenario and were brave enough to share this here , so you did great 

    some of my concerns :


    1. it seems they get you the contractor , this obviously means they have a relationship with him and its very clear that they have every incentive to work together ... There is no motivation for anybody in this process to be on your side ?

    Who is the true third party that can protect your interests ? If I were in this process , I would atleast have a third party inspector go there and get a report 


    2. ARV - I am yet to receive an ARV which is accurate , either from a wholesaler or a turnkey company , Their motivation is obviously to inflate the ARV , again how do you cross check ? there are many ways you could have handled this , obviously your own analysis - which looks like still was 30k above the reasonable price , your ARV has to be conservative , it should not be the best case scenario . There is nothing to act as a buffer in the deal - 160 k purchase , 40 k renovation - 200k ARV , there is no way anyone can even break even in this . One single surprise during rehab , then you could have lost more .


    3. I see the response from the HML who finances their deals , he says " What makes their system unique is that all of these sales ARE public record. It's totally transparent "

    I dont want to judge based on one statement , but this is very misleading . The purchase price and sale price are the public record. Lets say one of the property the purchase price is 200k and the sale price is 300k . This doesnot convey anything regarding their performance . Basically , this doesnt answer if its a profitable deal for the buyer .What is the rehab budget ? Did the contractor maintain the quality ? Is the level of finish up to the mark ? what are the holding costs ? what is the average market time in that area ? How do their listings compare ?

    Anybody who support the company - or who had positive experience , should answer the specific questions raised , generic statements like "there is risk in every business " "they are in business for 20 yrs " are pretty much a waste of time as these dont address the current concerns. 

    4. further more , if possible , can you state here , what is the scope of work so may be members can chime in - whether the rehab budget is realistic .

    Anyway , if any newbie is reading this , please understand the complications involved , how certain business models are there to essentially screw you , need for independent party verification s, how to be diligent when reading some of the supporters responses

    Wish you all success

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.