Important lesson learned cheap, passing it on

Important lesson learned cheap, passing it on

Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

This year, I had an impressive first in my landlording career. I've already had to change out two legacy bathroom sink drain assembles in two rentals in two months. Anyone who has had to do work on bathroom vanity drain systems knows what it's like, you're hunched under a bathroom sink in extremely tight quarters. Once you get some of the always slightly caustic drain trap fluid on your fingers, your fingers soften up and the skin abrades easily on them. I was impressed by the stifled inventiveness of my own swearing today. The tenant doesn't like using the central air conditioning, which I suppose is great for me (when I'm not there).

The first drain I took out this year was made of some sort of cheap base metal and cracked under normal use. The second was practically new but was a plastic and chromed-plastic affair with a chrome-plated drainpipe. What happened was that my tenant started dying her hair in the bathroom sink, and the dye managed to clog up the drainpipe before the trap, right under the sink stopper. This is the second time I've seen the same sort of clog in hair-dye situations.

Now I hope no DIY handyman landlord working in C/D properties is so slow on the uptake as to tell women of a certain age that dying their own hair in the bathroom sink that they rent from you is forbidden in your rentals. If you are, well, thanks for the business. If we accept that hair-dying in the sink is as inevitable as death and taxes, then the kind of drainpipe+dye goop+stopper hair clog I'm describing is also inevitable (unless we go with popup drains without traditional lever-operated stopper systems, but no, that's not going to work for me).

So when I took this drain apart to clean it out, the first thing that happened was that the chromed plastic cap on the stopper port in the back of the drain cracked when I reassembled the drain. I took it apart again and a large chip had broken off the threads. I rigged that with some silicone caulk, and then put the trap together again. Then I saw the drainpipe would not stop leaking at the trap, so I replaced the polypropylene trap assembly and put in a new washer in place on the polypropylene trap. That also didn't work. So I took that apart again and rigged it with some more silicone caulk, got that leak stopped. OK! But then I saw that the whole drain had started to leak from the main sink connection. That was the last straw. I was done with temporary rigging for the day.

With much ado and swearing, I removed the whole cheap plastic assembly, tossed it in the trash, and replaced with a full stainless-on-brass assembly (this is usually sold as a "heavy-duty" 1 1/4 drain assembly in the big box stores but more accurately as "all-brass construction" in my local plumbing supply store).

The lesson is learned, and I'm trying to pass it on here. Both vanities in these low-cost rentals that I worked on in these months were of full plywood construction with a sheet of flat roofing rubber glued into the bottom, the right kind of vanity to take the abuse vanities get in my rentals. I got off cheap. You can to. From now on, I'm done with renting apartments that don't have all-brass ("all-metal" is NOT ALWAYS all-brass) vanity drains in them. No more dying by inches playing Whac-A-Mole with a drain's problem everything time I have to go over there and service it.

If you buy these all-brass drains in big box stores, be aware that every community has types that are going to try to cannibalize small parts from these drain assemblies and walk off with them without paying for them. Always check the contents of the box the assembly is sold in and make sure that what's supposed to be in the box is actually in the box.

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Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
7y

When it comes to plumbing, NEVER use the cheap plastic stuff. You are just asking for trouble (leaks and floods).

And FYI, in my rentals I NEVER install sprayers in the kitchen sinks. They are guaranteed to leak, and you won't hear a peep out of the tenant until the unit floods out. Just cap off the hole in the sink and eliminate any Sprayers. 

Just my two cents...

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  • Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 464 posts · 471 votes
    7y

    Clearly, SOMETIMES, the more expensive items are worth the money!

    Me, I hope never to see the underside of a sink ever again. Too many plumbers out there in need of work!

    Thanks for sharing!

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Jim K.

     I always install 1.5" PVC with 1.5" P-trap with a screw disconnect & hopefully the wall connection is also a time saving 1.5". So I've never had a blockage since doing this type of rehab.

    With 2 daughters I've pulled a lot of rats out of P-traps & their 2" shower drains P-traps at home & in their current homes.

    My days of climbing under vanities & kitchen sinks are over but then again I'm not as slim & agile as you.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Pat L.:

    @Jim K.

     I always install 1.5" PVC with 1.5" P-trap with a screw disconnect & hopefully the wall connection is also a time saving 1.5". So I've never had a blockage since doing this type of rehab.

    With 2 daughters I've pulled a lot of rats out of P-traps & their 2" shower drains P-traps at home & in their current homes.

    My days of climbing under vanities & kitchen sinks are over but then again I'm not as slim & agile as you.

    Yeah, skinny slumlord me...thanks, Pat. I've been thinking of taking all the bathroom vanity plumbing to 1.5 in., too. I don't have time to screw with cheap plastic drains anymore, do I really still have time to screw with 1 1/4 in. DWW plumbing?

    But the kind of dye blockage I'm talking about happens in the downpipe along with the tail of the sink stopper before the P-trap. That's always 1 1/4 in. for every bathrooom drain, you only get it to 1 1/2 in. past that point with a thick slipjoint washer. I could theoretically install the same kind of twist-and-close drain system in the vanities as I do in my tubs instead of the lever system that leaves the stopper in the drain inviting this kind of blockage, but I think that just looks really cheap on a vanity, much more so than a twist-and-close does on a tub.

  • Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
    7y

    When it comes to plumbing, NEVER use the cheap plastic stuff. You are just asking for trouble (leaks and floods).

    And FYI, in my rentals I NEVER install sprayers in the kitchen sinks. They are guaranteed to leak, and you won't hear a peep out of the tenant until the unit floods out. Just cap off the hole in the sink and eliminate any Sprayers. 

    Just my two cents...

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:
    Originally posted by @Pat L.:

    @Jim K.

     I always install 1.5" PVC with 1.5" P-trap with a screw disconnect & hopefully the wall connection is also a time saving 1.5". So I've never had a blockage since doing this type of rehab.

    With 2 daughters I've pulled a lot of rats out of P-traps & their 2" shower drains P-traps at home & in their current homes.

    My days of climbing under vanities & kitchen sinks are over but then again I'm not as slim & agile as you.

    Yeah, skinny slumlord me...thanks, Pat. I've been thinking of taking all the bathroom vanity plumbing to 1.5 in., too. I don't have time to screw with cheap plastic drains anymore, do I really still have time to screw with 1 1/4 in. DWW plumbing?

    But the kind of dye blockage I'm talking about happens in the downpipe along with the tail of the sink stopper before the P-trap. That's always 1 1/4 in. for every bathrooom drain, you only get it to 1 1/2 in. past that point with a thick slipjoint washer. I could theoretically install the same kind of twist-and-close drain system in the vanities as I do in my tubs instead of the lever system that leaves the stopper in the drain inviting this kind of blockage, but I think that just looks really cheap on a vanity, much more so than a twist-and-close does on a tub.

     I use these.....

    LASCO 03-4307 White Plastic Tubular 1-1/2-Inch by 12-Inch Flanged Tailpiece

  • WI · Member since 2018 · 123 posts · 69 votes
    7y

    i have been chasing a slow inconsistent drain drip under one of my vanities as well.  the stub out is galvanized and then I ran 1.25" pvc for p-trap and extension into the drain stem that came with the new faucet.   

    What I'm reading here is that people have better luck with all brass drain systems over pvc/plastic? If that is the case let me know and I'll switch over to brass where I can ASAP before I get a tenant in. 

    Thanks!

  • Contractor · Evansville, IN · Member since 2019 · 142 posts · 208 votes
    7y

    Remove that lever stopper in your hood houses. Popups are king, you're not living there, so you're "style" doesn't matter. Function over form.

    If you have cast iron drains, you are setting yourself up. Swap out to pvc asap. Pay now or later. Rust will buildup in there and you don't want that fight with your drill snake. I've lost many a snake to rust inside cast drains, because you can't yank that snake back out. And that's IF it doesn't fail due to erosion.

    All drains are 2 inch fed into 4 inch, with vents placed within 6 feet of each drain. You should have at least a 6 inch drop BEFORE your ptrap so the water can get velocity.

    Lever stoppers will kill you on maintenance calls. If I have to make a trip more than twice over a lever stopper, I'm making the "executive decision" and removing it. Have yet to have a client get upset over it.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    @Bill Kramer

    Number one: you have made informed points. Number two: I know it's late, but welcome to Bigger Pockets and I for one am extremely glad you're here and sharing your informed viewpoints. This site needs a lot more guys like you, in my not-at-all humble opinion.

    I like my lever stopper vanity drains, I think pop-ups are trashy, and I have bad personal memories of stopper drains growing up on food stamps in D-class housing. I'm pretty sure a number of my tenants feel the same way. Your clients are your business.

    As far as replacing all the cast iron DWW and switching to PVC or ABS, I disagree. Yes, rust is going to build up in the problem points in cast iron DWW. But as soon as you've got the problem points identified and replaced, there are stretches that you won't see significant rusting on for a hundred years. Cast iron is also much quieter, and offers better fire safety, because cast-iron drains don't collapse and leave air tunnels during house fires. This is practical insurance for me, and worth having in my "hood houses." Cast iron also dries out and cracks start leaking. This shakes out during the two-year period I hold and don't refinance.

    4-inch stacks in $25,000 2-bedroom, 1 bath SFRs? Come on, Bill. I don't do full-gut on everything I buy. Nobody can afford to do renos like that, put money like that into this property class and refinance to get a reasonable amount of $$$ out to buy again. This is also not high-appreciation territory, where that investment is going to make money over the long haul. The goal is to build my portfolio, maintain it myself until I get to 25 units, and then in an upturn, sell it all to a hungry beginner who sees good numbers and not rusty pipes in walls.

  • Contractor · Evansville, IN · Member since 2019 · 142 posts · 208 votes
    7y

    I'm gonna try this @ thingy, see if it's works. I'm new to hash tags and whatnot, lol @Jim k. Did that work?

    Anyhow, in our d and f class properties, plumbing is issue #1. Well, that and hvac.

    Good points on cast vs plastic. It's $1500 down here for a licensed plumber to swap them out. So maybe that's why we do it. At that price it's a no brainer.

    Lever drains start appearing in c class areas where tenants take a little better care of the place. So they do have a spot, like you said. 

    In d and f we bomb proof the places. Plywood instead of drywall, etc...

    Tenants do weird things to plumbing. I can personally testify 3/4" pex will hold a 30 gal water heater off the ground when tipped. Crazy I even know that, lol.

    Last week I snaked a bar of soap out of a toilet. That's kids for ya.

  • Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    Uh-oh. I didn't know pop-ups were trashy. I thought they seemed like an easier to fix option. LOL.  I'm okay with either just as long as the drain and faucet match ;) And who uses the stopper in the bathroom sink anyway?

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    @Bill Kramer

    In the desktop app, type the @ sign and the first few letters of the target's name and a list of people you can tag shows up. When you post over the phone, well, I haven't had any luck with that either.

    Where are you from, where is "down here"? It helps to know. Change your profile if you want people to know.

    1. No way you can get an Allegheny County master plumber to replumb a house's DWW for $1500. I would actually do it myself, though, in collaboration with my plumber, and then I'd have to have the AC health department inspect it. Even in that case, almost every property I own is plaster on lath. Breaking out all the cast iron, and then patching and redoing  the plaster after getting a green tag...that's a lot of work.

    2, Plywood instead of drywall ain't gonna pass any of my code inspection guys' muster here. I've worked with one of them for six years now. If I tried to pull this on him once (building code demands fireproof wall covering here), he'd crucify me and pass on my name to every code inspection official in the county's watchlist.

    3. I did not know that about 3/4 in PEX and I'm sorry you found out.

  • Contractor · Evansville, IN · Member since 2019 · 142 posts · 208 votes
    7y

    We don't rip out cast stacks, we reroute the new stuff. No way is anyone trying to he man a cast iron stack. Plumber's back in the day were some brutes to manhandled that stuff.

    I'm only using Mobile, so I guess I can't tag people. Phones are computers these days, and I run office on my phone as well as quickbooks, etc... but I will update my location, thought I had done that. I'm from evansville indiana.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    @Bill Kramer

    My plumber (who is also my mentor) is from that era. He's bigger than I am, which is saying something. Welcome again and good to see you here.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:

    Uh-oh. I didn't know pop-ups were trashy. I thought they seemed like an easier to fix option. LOL.  I'm okay with either just as long as the drain and faucet match ;) And who uses the stopper in the bathroom sink anyway?

    You're probably right, Jill. I grew up in a 100-year-old farmhouse in upstate New York, owned by the tire shop next door. i didn't leave that sort of housing without certain beliefs about housing. One of them was about pop-up drains.

    When men with thick black beards and hot, pure Mediterranean blood throbbing in their veins shave, they need a lot of hot water to do it well and not cut themselves. These manly men fill the sink with hot water and rinse their beard out to soften the hair as much as they can before lathering up with shave cream using a bristle brush to push the beard-softening cream into the base of the hairs. They then shave over the steam rising from the sink three times, relathering each time. The first time with the grain, the second time across the grain, the last time against the grain. Then they pull the stopper and wash all the hair remnants down. If you visit the male bathrooms of military barracks or college dorms, you will see small signs taped over the sinks in homage to these legendary thick-bearded men: "Your mother doesn't clean here. Wash out the sink after shaving and draining."

    That's who uses the stopper in the bathroom sink every day, sometimes twice a day. In our America, with black guys using magic no-shave powder, bouffant and limp-locked blonde and mouse-brown-haired men who get away with one careless swipe at their whiskers with electrical contraptions, and Asian/Latino guys who are actually able to successfully use a dab of the perversion called "shaving gel" to remove the irregular wispy growth from their baby-soft-skinned chinny-chin-chins, the grim morning ablutions of the true warriors of the beard now often pass unremarked.

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    here's a gem I found behind a wall after the 65 yr old 'maintenance guy' they had for 22 years became familiar with Pex. We rehabbed the bathroom & eliminated ALL the leaks. The pic is after I cut the Pex to remove the brass fitting. BUT the 2x4 was a shim he had used. But the upper & lower male brass fittings covered in caulk did all leak??? Must have been cheap caulk!

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Bill Kramer:

    Remove that lever stopper in your hood houses. Popups are king, you're not living there, so you're "style" doesn't matter. Function over form.

    Lever stoppers will kill you on maintenance calls. If I have to make a trip more than twice over a lever stopper, I'm making the "executive decision" and removing it. Have yet to have a client get upset over it.

    I have been installing 'sinkshrooms' & with a couple of heavily bearded (shave 2xday) tenants they appreciate what it prevents going down the drain. Now if only I could stop the "Gel Queen" from jamming the old bath tub P-trap with coagulated hair & gel it would be amazing accomplishment. But at least she's agreed to put in a sink strainer to eliminate it going down.

  • Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:

    Uh-oh. I didn't know pop-ups were trashy. I thought they seemed like an easier to fix option. LOL.  I'm okay with either just as long as the drain and faucet match ;) And who uses the stopper in the bathroom sink anyway?

    You're probably right, Jill. I grew up in a 100-year-old farmhouse in upstate New York, owned by the tire shop next door. i didn't leave that sort of housing without certain beliefs about housing. One of them was about pop-up drains.

    When men with thick black beards and hot, pure Mediterranean blood throbbing in their veins shave, they need a lot of hot water to do it well and not cut themselves. These manly men fill the sink with hot water and rinse their beard out to soften the hair as much as they can before lathering up with shave cream using a bristle brush to push the beard-softening cream into the base of the hairs. They then shave over the steam rising from the sink three times, relathering each time. The first time with the grain, the second time across the grain, the last time against the grain. Then they pull the stopper and wash all the hair remnants down. If you visit the male bathrooms of military barracks or college dorms, you will see small signs taped over the sinks in homage to these legendary thick-bearded men: "Your mother doesn't clean here. Wash out the sink after shaving and draining."

    That's who uses the stopper in the bathroom sink every day, sometimes twice a day. In our America, with black guys using magic no-shave powder, bouffant and limp-locked blonde and mouse-brown-haired men who get away with one careless swipe at their whiskers with electrical contraptions, and Asian/Latino guys who are actually able to successfully use a dab of the perversion called "shaving gel" to remove the irregular wispy growth from their baby-soft-skinned chinny-chin-chins, the grim morning ablutions of the true warriors of the beard now often pass unremarked.

    Dang! I would not have thought it possible to make a thread on bathroom sink drains poetic... but you suceeded!

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:

    Uh-oh. I didn't know pop-ups were trashy. I thought they seemed like an easier to fix option. LOL.  I'm okay with either just as long as the drain and faucet match ;) And who uses the stopper in the bathroom sink anyway?

    You're probably right, Jill. I grew up in a 100-year-old farmhouse in upstate New York, owned by the tire shop next door. i didn't leave that sort of housing without certain beliefs about housing. One of them was about pop-up drains.

    When men with thick black beards and hot, pure Mediterranean blood throbbing in their veins shave, they need a lot of hot water to do it well and not cut themselves. These manly men fill the sink with hot water and rinse their beard out to soften the hair as much as they can before lathering up with shave cream using a bristle brush to push the beard-softening cream into the base of the hairs. They then shave over the steam rising from the sink three times, relathering each time. The first time with the grain, the second time across the grain, the last time against the grain. Then they pull the stopper and wash all the hair remnants down. If you visit the male bathrooms of military barracks or college dorms, you will see small signs taped over the sinks in homage to these legendary thick-bearded men: "Your mother doesn't clean here. Wash out the sink after shaving and draining."

    That's who uses the stopper in the bathroom sink every day, sometimes twice a day. In our America, with black guys using magic no-shave powder, bouffant and limp-locked blonde and mouse-brown-haired men who get away with one careless swipe at their whiskers with electrical contraptions, and Asian/Latino guys who are actually able to successfully use a dab of the perversion called "shaving gel" to remove the irregular wispy growth from their baby-soft-skinned chinny-chin-chins, the grim morning ablutions of the true warriors of the beard now often pass unremarked.

    Dang! I would not have thought it possible to make a thread on bathroom sink drains poetic... but you suceeded!

    Somehow, I will find the secret to make those seven years of college pay off, there's got to be a way...

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    I only know two things about plumbing  one pay day is Friday and excrement flows downhill..  

    other than that when I was in the rental business.. one of the main issues we had was the waste line 

    when we would buy a burnt out landlord home and rehab.. it.. if it did not have a new waste line PVC riser 

    we replaced it..  this cut down on service calls a ton.. and or emergency waste line replacements that can cost thousands.

    when folks are buying these homes it amazes me how so many don't do sewer scopes.. 

    in our market here any realtor worth anything makes sure the sewer is scoped as part of the pre buy.. 

    I even get folks doing that on my new construction.. looking for belly in the line..  I have not had to dig one up ( or the sub has not had to replace)..  but on used older homes its quite common.

  • Joseph ODonovanPro Member
    Property Manager · Ridley, PA · Member since 2017 · 427 posts · 449 votes
    7y

    @Jim K. My advice would be to find yourself a good plumber who can be your "go to guy" for your rentals. Let the plumber get his hands dirty. My philosophy is to pay people to do what they do best and I'll stick to doing what I do best.

  • Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Jay Hinrichs When we buy 100+ year old buildings in our area, we don't bother to scope, we assume that we are going to replace the mainstack, drain system, all supply lines, and all plumbing fixtures and possibly the drain to the street. We price that in when we bid. My best quote for tear out and rough-in for 4 baths, 4 kitchens, and cast iron mainstack replacement was 11,400 (with us doing all the demo and finish work.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:

    @Jay Hinrichs When we buy 100+ year old buildings in our area, we don't bother to scope, we assume that we are going to replace the mainstack, drain system, all supply lines, and all plumbing fixtures and possibly the drain to the street. We price that in when we bid. My best quote for tear out and rough-in for 4 baths, 4 kitchens, and cast iron mainstack replacement was 11,400 (with us doing all the demo and finish work.

     Eleven grand sounds cheap as hell. Good deal, Jill!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:

    @Jay Hinrichs When we buy 100+ year old buildings in our area, we don't bother to scope, we assume that we are going to replace the mainstack, drain system, all supply lines, and all plumbing fixtures and possibly the drain to the street. We price that in when we bid. My best quote for tear out and rough-in for 4 baths, 4 kitchens, and cast iron mainstack replacement was 11,400 (with us doing all the demo and finish work.

     Eleven grand sounds cheap as hell. Good deal, Jill!

     ya out our way it would be that per unit  plus probably way more.. drain lines to the street cost 5 to 10k alone.. 

  • Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Jim K. I think it is a good deal. It really helps that the building was designed as apartments and laid out sanely with back to back bathrooms stacked over each other and kitchen sinks right next to baths in two of the units on same stack. Plus I have found that the way to get better quotes is to do the tear out and then have the plumbers out to quote so they can see everything.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Joseph ODonovan:

    @Jim K. My advice would be to find yourself a good plumber who can be your "go to guy" for your rentals. Let the plumber get his hands dirty. My philosophy is to pay people to do what they do best and I'll stick to doing what I do best.

    There's this heavy touch of white-collar elitism in what you've written that stick in my craw like you probably wouldn't believe. I've done pretty well so far for myself going to the devil in my own way. But I will pass this on to my "good plumber" when I see him again. My plumber, who is also one of my mentors, runs a combined HVAC/plumbing outfit and can buy and sell me a dozen times over. I am deeply honored that he calls me his friend and lets me shake his dirty hand.

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