Building department doesnt like it when i do my own repairs
Rehabber · Syracuse, NY · Member since 2012 · 29 posts · 7 votes
Went to the building dept in my town today, I have some electrical work that needs to be completed in order to get a clean certificate of occupancy, anyway they said that i needed a licensed electrician to do all of the repairs. This is my eighth flip in the same town, has never been a problem, have always done the work myself and pulled the proper permits. They had me sign an oath stating that I am the owner and will be occupying the property and am responsible for the work. I am planning on getting the C/O in my name as soon as the list of repairs has been completed. Im going to move into this flip until I sell it. Do you think there will be problems when its time to sell (probably six months to get it under contract and sold)?
Yea. Some inspectors go so far overboard, its ridiculous.
The one in Lansing really turned me off to that town entirely - even though the prices are pretty good as are the rents. Its just not worth the hassle though.
I'll say this much, though. I do believe in pulling permits every time I get a house. Even if its only carpet and paint, I'll call the village and check that I don't need one just so they see that I'm reaching out and not trying to pull a fast one.
I've found that villages and inspectors tend to be a lot friendlier if you're at least putting in for the permits. I also think its well worth the $100 or $200 for the permits because then I get someone else looking at the work.
You'd be surprised how many little things the contractors will miss that might actually have some importance.
The other issue in pulling permits is that, if there are any problems with the house later on, I can show I had a licensed contractor do the work and had it inspected by the village as well. I've made a "reasonable" effort to ensure the house was safe.
I'm not sure people who do the work themselves could say that if they're not licensed and if no inspection was done. I know they can try to claim that the work was done before they bought the house. But I don't think insurance adjusters or attorneys are that dumb. They can easily tell how old some of the wiring, hvac, plumbing stuff is and can do the math from there.
While I can do my own electrical work in Washington including changing a service panel and mast, I must call the power company to disconnect the power and pull the meter. I then have to have all work inspected and call the power company to reconnect wires to the home and put in the new meter.
Hi Gidon Freidfertig looks like you meant to reply to an existing post and clicked on the "New Topic" button rather than the "Quick reply" button.
That being said. I agree that fighting with the building department rarely serves any good and can cause long term problems when trying to get future permits.
I understand why some draw the line with electrical work, but I am quite happy to do my own electrical work. I learned from a couple of electricians many years ago now and my experience that electrical inspectors in my area check the electrical well. There is a rough-in and a final electrical inspection here. Most of the inspectors I know are easy to work with and more than happy to talk to you about any new code changes.
I'd disagree, if a homeowner can do the work, the op is living there & willing to sign an"oath", they have no right to be calling him a liar. I'd be "educating" the inspector in this situation. They can be overruled, city hall can be beaten & I'd be the last one to be run out of town because an inspector had a personality problem.
and 4 months + lost income of $2k+ later, you'd have a moral victory. bravo!
i just dont see the point. that's all i am saying.
He's talking about moving his business because of one power-tripping government employee. According to the op, it's legal & 100% ok for an untrained homeowner to do their own electrical work in that city. He meets the requirements, they don't get to change the rules because they somehow think he's a "liar". It's pretty easy to prove where you get your mail, and the address on your drivers license.
A quick call from his attorney to the city's legal department will likely resolve the issue. If not, cities have mayors, ombudsmen & city councilmen that can be used to straighten out issues like these.
Gidon Freidfertig and Charles Perkins I moved your posts into this thread. Hopefully this is where you intended them to be. PM me if not.
That being said. I agree that fighting with the building department rarely serves any good and can cause long term problems when trying to get future permits.
I understand why some draw the line with electrical work, but I am quite happy to do my own electrical work. I learned from a couple of electricians many years ago now and my experience that electrical inspectors in my area check the electrical well. There is a rough-in and a final electrical inspection here. Most of the inspectors I know are easy to work with and more than happy to talk to you about any new code changes.
you will like this story.. i had my electrician change the riser. he made it 10' above the driveway, about 2 feet higher than the gutters.
the inspector came and said, "you need 12' above the driveway". i put a new riser, which made it over 4' above the gutters.
he came back and said "it's too high above the gutters. put 2 guy wires to the roof". i said, "Ok, it was too low, now it's too high".
then he failes me for not having a "inter bonding grounding bar for the AT&T and Dish grounding systems".
lol...
I'm curious, Oscar Martins, do you change your mailing address and driver's license, etc to the house you're rehabbing? Do you have another house, too? Where do you live after one house is sold before you buy another? If you're really moving into each of these houses, lock, stock, and barrel, then maybe this really is some power-tripping city employee. OTOH, if you have some other house that remains your mailing address and where you live in between rehab projects, then maybe this employee has a point. Perhaps you've been skirting the rules about using licensed contractors on non-OO properties and now you've been caught.
George P., what you write is irritating, but I'd actually be irritated with your electrician. There are multiple requirements, and your electrician isn't meeting all of them. He should have known that the line needed to be 12' over the driveway and that a riser above a certain height needed guy wires. Had he done it correctly the first time, you wouldn't have had all that back and forth with the inspector. Around here you would have also been charged re-inspection fees for the multiple inspections. My experience (with a troublesome plumber, in particular) is that once you start irritating inspectors, you get really, really picky. Arguing with inspectors rarely gets you positive results.
jon,
my guy was telling me that the riser would be too high and it would sway in the wind, and i urged him to call the inspector and talk to him. but he did not. so, he had to do it again at no cost. he is a retired guy that i like, so i was ok with that. and i dont have tenants yet, so i was fine with it.
but yes, i am glad i pay no re-inspection fees. i would not be happy if that's the case. i passed it though.
I currently share an apartment with my brother, I change my address (license & mailing) everytime I move into my flip. I have decided to pay an electrician to finish the electrical work. I told the building dept to void my electrical application, no longer doing any major alterations, just the items on the C/O list of repairs. I' ll sell it and be done with it, plenty of deals in the neighboring towns. If I knew I had to hire an electrcian my offer price on the property would have been slightly lower. Live and learn. Thanks for the support guys!
In Illinois, its very straightforward. If you're going to rent it out, you have to have a licensed contractor do all the work. You can paint and do flooring. But when you get to electrical, plumbing, hvac, roofing, etc, you don't even get a choice - not that I have any of those skills anyway.
Although I have had one village take it too far. They required me to get a licensed plumber to change the toilet. Handyman wasn't sufficient.
Here's my two cents from my OWN EXPERIENCE:
Flip that house! If you're experienced in wiring and not a complete knucklehead, do the work yourself and then find an electrician to sign off on it! You will save thousands!
Step 1. Do the work yourself.
Step 2. Call around for a local, independent electrician (not independent as in union-free, but one that runs his or her own shop). Tell them that there's been work done, and that you need someone to inspect and then sign off that it was done correctly.
Step 3. Have written proof that the electrical work was done.
Disclaimer: I'm in Central Texas, so laws may obviously be different.
The best thing you can do is avoid permits at all costs. A permit is just a tax. Also, it is unAmerican to have a government agent coming into your property. That is your square of America and no one should be allowed to enter without your permission.
I never get a permit unless I get caught, which is rare. My standard line is "It was like that when I got here." I learned that from Homer Simpson.
The problem with building inspectors is that 100% of them are hacks that can't make it in the private sector so they get a cushy government job and then hassle you.
I never get a permit unless I get caught, which is rare. My standard line is "It was like that when I got here." I learned that from Homer Simpson.
The problem with building inspectors is that 100% of them are hacks that can't make it in the private sector so they get a cushy government job and then hassle you.
You do realize that google indexes these posts, right?
Even the different contractors who know code and know city crap the inspectors spew dont get permits unless they are forced,,,they hate permits as much as any body.
I find it funny trade pros dont get permits either when they darn well know they need them. Even need a permit to replace a water heater.
Worst habit inspectors have is requiring whole property to be inspected when only part being fixed is something else. Like requiring modern wiring if pipes are changed. IF the bathroom stool doesnt have required 15 FULL inches on both sides PLUS paper holder width your house is tagged and condemned. Same with crawl space walls and footings less than 48" frost depth.
SO long story short, everyone keeps them out at all costs.
Yea. Some inspectors go so far overboard, its ridiculous.
The one in Lansing really turned me off to that town entirely - even though the prices are pretty good as are the rents. Its just not worth the hassle though.
I'll say this much, though. I do believe in pulling permits every time I get a house. Even if its only carpet and paint, I'll call the village and check that I don't need one just so they see that I'm reaching out and not trying to pull a fast one.
I've found that villages and inspectors tend to be a lot friendlier if you're at least putting in for the permits. I also think its well worth the $100 or $200 for the permits because then I get someone else looking at the work.
You'd be surprised how many little things the contractors will miss that might actually have some importance.
The other issue in pulling permits is that, if there are any problems with the house later on, I can show I had a licensed contractor do the work and had it inspected by the village as well. I've made a "reasonable" effort to ensure the house was safe.
I'm not sure people who do the work themselves could say that if they're not licensed and if no inspection was done. I know they can try to claim that the work was done before they bought the house. But I don't think insurance adjusters or attorneys are that dumb. They can easily tell how old some of the wiring, hvac, plumbing stuff is and can do the math from there.
I never get a permit unless I get caught, which is rare. My standard line is "It was like that when I got here." I learned that from Homer Simpson.
The problem with building inspectors is that 100% of them are hacks that can't make it in the private sector so they get a cushy government job and then hassle you.
rob,
i tried that once and it did not work. i had changed the water heater before they came out. i even threw the old one away and got rid of the cardboard box. he saw the new water heater and said "you need a permit for that". i told him that the bank must have changed it recently, and he said "i dont care. you need a permit. if you are not the homeowner, you need a plumber to pull a permit".
that's when i switched that house from non homestead to homestead to pull my own permit. but that raised my personal home taxes by $800, so it was not worth it at all.
I never said it works every time. Sometimes you get caught. It's all a numbers game. I only get a permit if I have to, which isn't very often.
The best thing you can do is keep the government out of your properties. They are as bad as copper thieves and cost you about as much out of your pocket.
I never get a permit unless I get caught, which is rare. My standard line is "It was like that when I got here." I learned that from Homer Simpson.
The problem with building inspectors is that 100% of them are hacks that can't make it in the private sector so they get a cushy government job and then hassle you.
I agree with this 100%
This.
You may win battles here and there, but nobody wins a war with building code departments.
Mike
Having worked in construction 18 years, I can say that building a relationship with inspectors has been a huge plus. Be a professional and know what you're doing, but give them the feeling of power by asking them simple little questions, like how they want such and such done. Lol, stroke their ego a bit.
The permit process around here can be a mess. One hurricane damaged house we rehabbed the city was very helpfull with permits and coaching to keep it within FEMA guidelines. They did chastise me several times about electrical work until I had a licensed electrician pull a permit.
Funny thing is our company had just changed out their emergency generator for the main city office with no permits or anything. Nobody thought twice about a diesel mechanic wiring up 480 3 phase. But don't change the wall outlets in your rent house.
this morning with the plumbing/mechanical inspector....
me: i started with no pipes. now i at least have pipes. hard to believe nothing has been done
him: well, the basement bath is iligal, you have to remove it so i inspect the drain.
me: not doing that.
him: then get it video camera and show proof it's done right
me: what else?
him: move the laundry tub to original location?
me: where IS the original location? i just bought the house
him:i dont know. do you need a better plumber? i can give you a number..
gotta love those guys..
IF you live in an area with lots of other investors one of the reasons prices in this town might be low on investment caliber property is the city is a PIA to work in. I am in the midst of my first rehab in a new town, and when i started looking it seemed like there were lots of deals, and now I realize that the cost of doing business there is higher than neighboring towns.
I had to have full architect drawings of the entire property, provide a copy of my survey, ect all to change a header that had rotted out on a back porch. When I asked why this was needed the inspector replied- 'if you don't like it why don't you call your attorney and sue the town?'
I am sure that wouldn't drag on forever, and be a total waste of time. So a few thousand bucks and a week later we got back to work.
Seems like it might be the cost of doing business, and you need to factor that in to make a profit.
Also if you are moving from place to place to claim you are the OO this does not seem like a very scale-able business model if you plan on growing. What if you have two rehabs going on simultaneously? At some point you will need to build up a reliable crew, why not start when you are small and have the time to build a team you trust?
A couple tricks that I learned to avoid permits.
Find a local plumber that installs tankless water heaters. When he removes a perfectly good water heater, buy it from him for $50. Store it in your garage until you need it. Then install it or have a handyman put it in. You just saved hundreds of dollars AND avoided having to get a permit. Some of the used water heaters still have warranties.
If you do any plumbing repairs that involve copper, make the new copper look old. You can take an old glove with plumbing flux and rub it on the new pipes. Next, sweep up dirt from the floor and rub it on the new pipes to make them look old and dirty. This will fool the average inspector.
Another trick to avoid permits is to find guys that work on nights and weekends. It's light out until 9pm. Most inspectors are done working by 4. That gives you five hours to get the work done.
Oscar, I think you are wise to hire a licensed electrician. That eliminates any doubt, and relieves you of a great deal of the liability.
If I may offer one more piece of advice? Don't shoot yourself in the foot. You may find a great deal in that town in the future.
You are angry now; give yourself time to calm down, and then have a rational conversation with the person who called you a liar's supervisor. I am sure they will not appreciate that type of behavior from a municipal employee.