Why to invest in Notes?

Why to invest in Notes?

Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

I am not sure there is really a good thread here in BP which address this question.  I know there are many blogs but those do not provide expanded conversations around the idea, IMO.  

If you are a seasoned, new or potential loan investor regardless of performance, skill, knowledge or training chime in.  I know in advance, that this may be a tall request and many/some will not want to chime in, but I think it would do a good service to really start addressing the expectations that are flowing in the background and help put some light on realistic approaches and ideas to some of the core reasons folks consider jumping it, do jump in or stay away from investing in whole loans/notes.  

Some general questions:
What is attracting you to this asset class opposed to others?   

What are the expectations that you have, think you have or may have heard in regards to the amount or level of return one can expect?  

What is the amount of time a single investment will take or do you plan for?  Or your general investment horizon per asset.  Perhaps why that is your target as well.

What is the target amount of capital you believe you need or plan to work with or do work with?

How do you believe you will exit your asset investment specifically?  Perhaps a better way to say this is what is your most hopeful exist, highest best, as you know it.

How does that exit affect your return in your opinion?


I am not trying to sandbag anybody.  I really think this conversation needs to take place.  I hold this general conversation with many of the new investors I have talked with and some of those have been from here on BP.  

The fun and familiar motto is something to the effect of "Be the bank" - well, what does that really mean to you?  

The more open dialog, the better.

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property manager · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2012 · 502 posts · 171 votes
12y

@Dion DePaoli know that I read all yours posts, appreciate their value and your attempt to cover the questions posed. When I see folks talk about notes its almost like talking about old cars or a "box of chocolates" as Forest famously said. We talking 246 GT Dino Ferrari, 1939 Packard, 68 Pontiac Firebird or 1970 AMC Gremlin= owner carry, 1st position, 2nds, under water Vs. equity, performing Vs. default seniors, purchasing partials. They are incorrectly dumped into the generalized discussions. I don't think note investments are for greenhorns, especial NPN 2nds. Start with a simple OWC and work up.

1-Why=The past years of hard money lending have given an opportunity to compare both notes and REI. @Bill Gulley already mentioned the lack of toilets in notes. Rentals, whether commercial or residential, require active involvement Vs. little involvement in the notes(thanks to servicers). Availability of NPN 2nds over next 3-5 years is a factor because I can't compete with Oak Hill and buy $659 million from Freddie Mac at .76 UBP or Lone Star Funds-John Grayken, paid almost 66 cents per dollar of unpaid balance at the June HUD auction, winning bids on all 16 loan pools of NPN 1st's. I'm a minnow see.

2-Note returns= vary as well based on goals and product type. 15-20% yields for 1st's(its fine, boring but its mailbox money). Underwater 2nds can be a total loss to a 600% return. Our investors worst NPN 2nd pool was a 25% return to date.

3-Time=performing notes take about 15 minutes a month to account for each one at most. Pools need about 2 years on NPN 2nds to work through with servicer and take patience.

4-6 Investment amount and exits= It might help to answer the rest of the questions as a BEST CASE, hold for long term, cash flow, NPN no equity 2nd scenario. The other obvious exit to long term hold is a sale of 6 month seasoned reperformed notes at a 15-18 yield. Compare note potential to REI potential. Will have to generalize to make this work.

Assumptions NPN 2nds underwater based on past experience:

Price of notes: 20% of UPB (some are cheaper, some are more expensive so pick a blended number)

Face interest of note: 10%

Face value of note: $70,000

Percentage of complete loss of notes: 20%

Percentage of settled of notes: 20%

Percentage of settlement rate: 180%. i.e. 100k note, 20k purchase, 36k pay off

Percentage of re-performing notes: 60% at 7%

Terms of re-performing notes: 7% interest, principal paid off when property is re-financed or sold.

Term of performing note till property sold or refinanced: 15 years (historically 7-9 years but these may be less apt to sell due to value issue)

Example:

Buy 5 million face value of notes for 1 million.

20% are wiped out leaving 4 million of notes

20% pay off for 360k leaving 3 million of notes

Basis; 1 mill

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Bill B.Pro Member
    Camarillo, CA · Member since 2013 · 217 posts · 86 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Riffing on Bill's idea, what about "yield hack"?

     May I ask what you mean by "yield hack"?  It implies (to my limited understanding) manipulation.  (or is the more acceptable term arbitrage???)

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Bill B.:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Riffing on Bill's idea, what about "yield hack"?

     May I ask what you mean by "yield hack"?  It implies (to my limited understanding) manipulation.  (or is the more acceptable term arbitrage???)

    In the discussion above Dion introduced the term whiteback to describe newbie note investors. Bill G. goes on to say perhaps the term yieldback is better.  Back before hacking referred to computers, a hack was someone who did a crude or unskillful job, usually making a mess of something.  Hence my suggestion of yieldhack.  Now that hacking is considered a skill (regardless of ethics or legality), I'm thinking that the word hack will never have the same meaning.

  • Bill B.Pro Member
    Camarillo, CA · Member since 2013 · 217 posts · 86 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed 

    egg on MY face......

    sorry for the embarrassingly lame question.

  • Investor · Reston, VA · Member since 2011 · 683 posts · 191 votes
    11y

    I'd like to revive this topic. I am slowly liquidating my rental portfolio and am interested in Note investing. I have considered HML to local investors but am also considering placing money with a longtime local HML who has offered me 10%. I'm thinking to first place money with the HML and then get in to doing my own HML.

    What sort of due diligence should be done when investing with a HML company? What sort of agreement/contract should I expect? Ideally, I would like to split my investment between 3 different companies. Getting 10% is fine for me. A PM referral of local DC Area HML's would be appreciated. I now have one that I have known for 25yrs.

    Thanks for any referrals! I'd also be interested in putting money with a HML in Collier County FL.

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Cheryl C.

    Try marketplace. :)

  • Investor · Reston, VA · Member since 2011 · 683 posts · 191 votes
    11y

    Thanks @Brian Gibbons.  I'll do that.

    Perhaps placing money with a HML is a little off-topic, but it seems to be along the continuum of pure Note investing. Passive $$$ with returns far better than bonds is the goal. Placing money with a solid HML is about as passive as one can get.

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Cheryl C.

    @Brian Gibbons referred you to the Real Estate Marketplace because your initial post solicited referrals.

    Discussing of the differences between note investing or placing your money in an HML pool or syndication is viable fodder for this forum.

  • Investor · Reston, VA · Member since 2011 · 683 posts · 191 votes
    11y

    @Roy N. put in marketplace. I still am interested in the pro's and con's of an HML pool vs direct purchase of Notes.

  • Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    You can do a few things.  You can create your own notes by selling your property with owner financing and carry the note.  This would have the advantage of spreading any capital gain over multiple years.  

    You could sell your RE holding and buy notes created when someone else did an owner financed sale(s).  I often see these prices at 11-12% yields and, as long as the borrower keeps paying you don't have any times where you are not invested.

    You could buy shorter term Notes or just buy the front end payments on someone else existing note, you have a lower LTV in this scenario and it is easier to create a laddered portfolio with something coming due on a regular basis so if the investing environment changes you have things coming due that can be invested to take advantage of the changing environment - expect around an 7-8% yield in this scenario.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Channeling capital out through a HML/PML is a good solution IMO. The level of administration burden you will have depends on how the HML/PML is setup to take in your capital. Essentially is your capital returned to you at every payoff or does it flow into the lender who can then put it back out?

    Progressing from being a capital investor into a HML/PML is not something I would say is simple.  There is much to know and costs to setup everything can rack up.  Documents matter.  Marketing matters.  Depending on the state where you wish to lend money you may be required to get a license.  In some states, like Florida, getting a Lender's License will require you being a loan officer for 2 years before you can apply to be a principal broker which is what is needed to then file for a Lender's license.  

    There are those who pursue lending and have zero intention of getting a license and look to exemptions from license by way of only making loans for non-primary residences.  From a loan standpoint this is OK but you can violate the state's rules on marketing without a proper license regardless of who you "intend" to loan to.  

    In regards to due diligence on the company to link up with, well that depends.  First place to start is look up licensing.  Having one is better than not.  Second, they should provide you with the contracts to take in your capital and use it.  Those will for the most part be unique to each HML/PML.  So you will have to read those terms and see if you agree with them.  

    The harder part is accessing whether the HML/PML does a good job of putting money out and getting paid back.  There is no real easy way to understand this from them beside actually reviewing loans they have made in the past.  They should open up their book of business to you and allow you to see how many loans they made and how many were paid back vs foreclosed.  I would also look to how often, if any, they had to extend the terms of the note because the borrower was not prepared to payoff the loan at maturity or handle the debt service, etc.  

    Having to extend note terms would be a sign that the lender is a little too aggressive and perhaps under estimates the capital and time the borrower needs to get their work done and pay back the HML/PML.  That would also fall under a skill you would have to learn or put someone on your team who knows in the event you pursue lending yourself.  

    Diversity in the lenders themselves is probably not a bad idea.  That said, knowing one for 25 years is a pretty tenured relationship that might be best suited to work with.  That is all personal preference and judgement on your behalf.  Bear in mind there may be limitations based on minimal capital amounts that a lender requires which can limit the number of HML/PML you can play with at one time.  

    Hope that helps.

  • Business Owner/Investor · Millersville, MD · Member since 2015 · 191 posts · 71 votes
    10y

    OMG Notes are like the most amazing thing ever ZOMMMMMG!!

    i totally love the saying "no tenants or toilets".

    Is there any kind of database/clearinghouse/auction house?

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