RE residential Notes . . .quality of properties and forrates
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Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes@Darren Eady is it possible for you to make a post which is not a sales pitch? Your post doesn't address anything asked by the OP. The forums are not for advertising.
@Jay Gill that is a good question that I don't think has made it's way to the boards. The first thing we have to do is build some understanding of ideas. The urban property still has a real property value, what ever that may be. That value should be a number which represents what a buyer will buy for and a seller will see for in an open market arm's length transaction. Generally the value represents a price which will cause the sale to occur within 120 days of being on market. As we get into more rural locations the universe of potential buyers shrinks. We would expect to increase the marketing time. It takes longer to tap into a smaller group of folks. Each rural area is going to have different characteristics. A township with 500 people might take longer than a township with 5,000 people. Depends on what the economies and potential sources of income are. The key is to ascertain the correct comparable and sales characteristics to place a value on the real property. The point here is the property has a value and that value is a function of these influences. We need to start there. Knowing that number will also mean knowing the time it takes to market. In some rural markets you could see marketing times of a 6 months or a year. Each area will be slightly different due to the characteristics.
Discounts on notes are driven by the amount of time and capital it takes to fully disposition the asset. Short term disposition have higher prices and longer term have lower prices. Holding the loan and then the REO to sell costs money. So when pegging the value it is important to peg the time to complete. We would expect to see deeper discounts on rural property compared to urban assets that are similar as best they can be. So, is the discount greater? Yes. Is that "better"? Not really. The discount is driven by the capital it takes to hold and disposition the asset. So the real comparison of whether the rural property is actually a better deal should extend into the total price, advances and expenses it takes to disposition the asset in full. We can't necessarily rely on purchase price as that lead indicator, we will be mislead. By their nature, they should be less than urban loans of the same characteristics.
In regards to higher risk of default. That is going to depend. Rural borrowers may have a harder time finding replacement work if something was to happen to their primary occupation or source of income. That issue is a function of simply being farther away from urban centers which typically have more employment opportunities than rural locations. Does that put rural loans at a higher risk of default than urban loans? It probably depends on what the source of income is and how prevalent a potential replacement source of income is for the borrower if something does happen. In a farming town a farming replacement job, even though the number or residents is low, may very well be fine to support a quick replacement. Whereas a factory job in a small town where the factory shuts down may be much more difficult to replace if the next urban center is 100 miles away.
There is a level of complexity in these understandings when it comes to urban versus rural assets. The USDA has a couple loan programs which targets rural area properties. They do have some more relaxed guidelines on sub-prime borrowers which may allow for an earlier refinance opportunity than that of an urban loan. In addition, the loan to be purchased may be a loan which provides further incentive for a mortgagee to purchase the loan with guarantees to the Mortgagee. The point of those features in those loan programs is to encourage mortgagee participation in those markets.
I probably would consider any rural loan a potential flip. They will not move quickly and just like the universe of potential real property buyers is small the universe of potential loan buyers will also be small. It will be easier to get through an urban loan than a rural loan in most cases.
In regards to returns on rural versus urban. You can make some decent returns on any asset if you purchase it correctly. That includes taking into consideration the time and capital you will need to deploy into the asset to disposition it. There is certainly a case to make that a rural loan should bring back a return higher return than that of urban loan but I think it is relative. If we seek 20% returns on a urban loan a rural loan may be 25% or 30%. I would not let that be an indicator of one deal being better than the other because one deal has the potential to bring back a higher return. The risk is greater and thus we seek a higher return. I am not sure higher risk, even with higher potential return, defines anything being better than the other.
Can you purchase rural loans and make money? Yes. Is it a little harder than urban loans as close to the same rural asset? Yes. There is not a lot of competition in those assets so that speaks to something if the investor can do a good job of working the loans out. You will be involved in the loan on average longer than that of an urban comparable. As such, you will spend more money on it. Just the same, you may also experience easier opportunities to get the property surrendered. Do to being far away from alternative housing solutions you may also experience less property deterioration and abandonment issues.
So there are both pros and cons. The key is always, on any note, to purchase the loan correctly in a conservative manner to allow for the needed time and advances to take place to disposition the loan. In that we can, in theory, put a value on any loan anywhere which provides for returns relative to the risks.
18 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Lindon, UT · Member since 2015 · 862 posts · 438 votes10y
Hey @Jay Gill. I create mortgage notes in this small loan size amount and have had about a 1% default rate over 4000 loans and notes with the average loan size being around $40k. They are in 1st position on title and when a delinquency occurs, I have some great ways of getting my and my note holders money back to us.
Also, I'm originally from Niagra-on-the-Lake, Ontario, so let's connect and I'd be happy to talk to you more about performing notes in the States!
- 10yDion DePaoliPro MemberReal Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
@Darren Eady is it possible for you to make a post which is not a sales pitch? Your post doesn't address anything asked by the OP. The forums are not for advertising.
@Jay Gill that is a good question that I don't think has made it's way to the boards. The first thing we have to do is build some understanding of ideas. The urban property still has a real property value, what ever that may be. That value should be a number which represents what a buyer will buy for and a seller will see for in an open market arm's length transaction. Generally the value represents a price which will cause the sale to occur within 120 days of being on market. As we get into more rural locations the universe of potential buyers shrinks. We would expect to increase the marketing time. It takes longer to tap into a smaller group of folks. Each rural area is going to have different characteristics. A township with 500 people might take longer than a township with 5,000 people. Depends on what the economies and potential sources of income are. The key is to ascertain the correct comparable and sales characteristics to place a value on the real property. The point here is the property has a value and that value is a function of these influences. We need to start there. Knowing that number will also mean knowing the time it takes to market. In some rural markets you could see marketing times of a 6 months or a year. Each area will be slightly different due to the characteristics.
Discounts on notes are driven by the amount of time and capital it takes to fully disposition the asset. Short term disposition have higher prices and longer term have lower prices. Holding the loan and then the REO to sell costs money. So when pegging the value it is important to peg the time to complete. We would expect to see deeper discounts on rural property compared to urban assets that are similar as best they can be. So, is the discount greater? Yes. Is that "better"? Not really. The discount is driven by the capital it takes to hold and disposition the asset. So the real comparison of whether the rural property is actually a better deal should extend into the total price, advances and expenses it takes to disposition the asset in full. We can't necessarily rely on purchase price as that lead indicator, we will be mislead. By their nature, they should be less than urban loans of the same characteristics.
In regards to higher risk of default. That is going to depend. Rural borrowers may have a harder time finding replacement work if something was to happen to their primary occupation or source of income. That issue is a function of simply being farther away from urban centers which typically have more employment opportunities than rural locations. Does that put rural loans at a higher risk of default than urban loans? It probably depends on what the source of income is and how prevalent a potential replacement source of income is for the borrower if something does happen. In a farming town a farming replacement job, even though the number or residents is low, may very well be fine to support a quick replacement. Whereas a factory job in a small town where the factory shuts down may be much more difficult to replace if the next urban center is 100 miles away.
There is a level of complexity in these understandings when it comes to urban versus rural assets. The USDA has a couple loan programs which targets rural area properties. They do have some more relaxed guidelines on sub-prime borrowers which may allow for an earlier refinance opportunity than that of an urban loan. In addition, the loan to be purchased may be a loan which provides further incentive for a mortgagee to purchase the loan with guarantees to the Mortgagee. The point of those features in those loan programs is to encourage mortgagee participation in those markets.
I probably would consider any rural loan a potential flip. They will not move quickly and just like the universe of potential real property buyers is small the universe of potential loan buyers will also be small. It will be easier to get through an urban loan than a rural loan in most cases.
In regards to returns on rural versus urban. You can make some decent returns on any asset if you purchase it correctly. That includes taking into consideration the time and capital you will need to deploy into the asset to disposition it. There is certainly a case to make that a rural loan should bring back a return higher return than that of urban loan but I think it is relative. If we seek 20% returns on a urban loan a rural loan may be 25% or 30%. I would not let that be an indicator of one deal being better than the other because one deal has the potential to bring back a higher return. The risk is greater and thus we seek a higher return. I am not sure higher risk, even with higher potential return, defines anything being better than the other.
Can you purchase rural loans and make money? Yes. Is it a little harder than urban loans as close to the same rural asset? Yes. There is not a lot of competition in those assets so that speaks to something if the investor can do a good job of working the loans out. You will be involved in the loan on average longer than that of an urban comparable. As such, you will spend more money on it. Just the same, you may also experience easier opportunities to get the property surrendered. Do to being far away from alternative housing solutions you may also experience less property deterioration and abandonment issues.
So there are both pros and cons. The key is always, on any note, to purchase the loan correctly in a conservative manner to allow for the needed time and advances to take place to disposition the loan. In that we can, in theory, put a value on any loan anywhere which provides for returns relative to the risks. - 10yJay GillMinneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 16 posts · 0 votesOP
@Dion DePaoli Appreciate that very thought-out and in-depth answer. It is great to find individuals willing to give sincere and honest feedback.
From what I researched so far with regards to non-performing notes, there are two strategies get the note performing again(loan modfication) or take control of note(signing over deed or last resort foreclosure). To me trying to get the note performing is the least hassle, however how easy is it to get the occupant to pay since they probably haven't been paying for awhile? Also I hear mixed answers on whether people make a return on the their investment if they have to foreclose. Some say they break-even at best, others say they make a healthy return.
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Jay Gill Rural America has its plus's and minus's.. some markets are just so stagnet that the values are really quite low and you would need to be buying the note accordingly.
If you take rural Indiana for instance were I have some experience Kokomo, Marion, Muncie.
generally a home in a lower end part of any of these towns if you take it back and its in average OREO shape those homes are worth under 10k to a wholesaler or flipper.
and they can take forever to sell.
so need some caution.
you can get notes reproforming it seems logical.. although my personal experience dictates that its a temporary fix be it 6 months or 3 years but at some point in time your going to have to take the asset.
It all comes down to pricing... and what you should pay for these...
- 10yDion DePaoliPro MemberReal Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Jay,
When it comes to a borrower they can either do one of two things: (1) Pay or (2) Not Pay.
The general idea of pursuing defaulted loans under the idea that most will be reinstated is unrealistic. Most defaulted loans end up being foreclosed. It is more prudent to approach non-performers under the idea you will have to foreclose and take into consideration of the length of time that process takes and the amount of capital that will needed to be advanced and spent along the way. If you approach it in that manner than in the event a borrower is capable and a mortgagee is willing shorter term dispositions are a bonus. That goes for any reinstatement whether a modification is present or not and also includes short sales and refinances and deed in lieu of foreclosure.
Working through defaulted loans is not easy by any means. You can make good returns but that all starts with approaching the purchase with the time and costs understood and not over paying for the loan. If someone is buying NPN's and not understanding foreclosure is the primary disposition they are probably over paying for the loan and yes, that will mean they have small or even no return.
There are many threads here on BP about NPN investing and notes in general. Look around and feel free to ask some more questions as needed. - Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes10y
ROI at foreclosure is dependent upon your cost basis on the asset: what you paid for the note, servicing costs, foreclosure fees, etc., then what you sell the asset for at the auction or REO. We target 35% to 60% of the as-is value of the property for purchase cost, knowing that we should budget an additional $3-6K for legal expenses, insurance and holding costs. So if FC is imminent, we would get full return of our capital and usually a decent profit at liquidation of the underlying asset. Understand the the time to FC varies from state to state and we currently do not buy loans in the long judicial states like NY and NJ.
As far as getting re-performance, the first thing we do is file a NOD and have our attny send a notice to the borrower that foreclosure process has started. We do reach out to the borrower to see if they are able and willing to resume payments via a loan mod, but in most cases when they say "yes I do" they typically do not follow thru with completing financial statements and progressing thru the mod process, since it's much easier to stop responding. An attny foreclosure notice will get their attention and let the borrower know that we are serious and not practicing their former lender's "extend and pretend" policy of providing free housing to them.
Hope this helps!
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Bob Malecki since your in the game as Dion is... and you have these companies or articles and BP podcast talking about how to buy a NPN get it performing etc etc which creates this fabulous return.
I really don't think the folks listening to those or reading about fully understand that as you Both have stated and you are guys currently deep in the market .. that the eventual out is Normally foreclosure and resale of asset. and all the time energy and work that goes into that. I just get the general sense that folks really think if you do loan mods that these poor folks are going to wake up one day and become brilliant payors for the next 10 to 25 years or whatever is left on the mortgage or whatever new terms are given..
Buying NPN is simply a different way to buy an asset at the end of the day.. and one of the tougher ways and because of that they need to be bought with extreme discounts to market
Especially in low value mid west markets were ARV usually is a figment of someone's imagination and a true value is only what a wholesaler or rehabber will pay becaseu that is what you have when you get the home back.
- Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes10y
That's an excellent point @Jay Hinrichs, and a good rationale for buying at a good discount. Now, I have had success in getting a workout completed with many of the NPLs I purchase, but these are cherry-picked and well researched before buying.
Also, with an industry average of 24 months or so for redefault, we'll see how long these borrowers will sustain their performance. Since our cost basis is generally at >50% of current home value, even if we have to foreclose later in the lifecycle, we can expect return of capital and most likely a profit, contingent on the performance and trends in the local market where the asset is located. Another good reason to have market analysis in your DD processes....
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Bob Malecki market is key the OP was talking rurual mid west Caution is the name of the game in those assets.
and its a reason for instance that CA NPN trade so high.. you know the exit value is much easier to determine and the assets are very liquid once you get them.. homes in rural mid west can and do take years to sell .. how do I know I owned some..
And matter of fact I had a duplex in rural Indiana and I gave it away on BP.. one for learning experience and two because it takes to much time to corral these low value assets not worth me messing with.
I just go back and think about my pre foreclosure days in OR and WA when you could legally save someone from losing their home.. they deed to us we either cashed out their loan or took sub too.
I did HUNDREDS of these from late 90s until it became illegal to do it with the new laws in 07. And I can count on one hand the amount that could buy the home back.. and or stayed for more than 24 months on terms that were agreed to.. and of course in those days, and depending on the deal their new payment was less than their old and I was negative cash flow.. but I had such huge equity did not matter and I owned the asset so it was just a straight up foreclosure.. but the premise is the same with NPN.. only worse since they are in title..
So in that game I just see it as a buy the asset and foreclose and make sure you buy it correctly.. I Personally believe to create a business model your going to count on that involves the owner will change their stripes and become a great payor.. I just don't think based on my personal experience that will go long term at all.
I have seen companies come and go that was their model and it sounds great .. its sounds benevolent but does not work in practice.
- 10yDon KonipolBusiness MemberInvestor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
Dion and Jay hit the nail on the head - again.
For investors considering investing in NPN residential o/o, here is how a typical situation plays out
A bank, bank holding CO, or asset management and disposition CO puts together a package of say 1,000 NPNs, and asks for bids. The qualified bidders are the major hedge funds, private investment partnerships and private equity funds able to pay $25M cash and more. The funds do their analysis, performed by their analysts, usually MBAs in finance, who graduated at top of their class, and have been trained to use and understand the most sophisticated financial modeling theories and techniques.
The winning bidder pays for and gets ownership of these 1,000 NPNs. Their analysts then drill down and do a deeper and more thorough analysis of each note, to determine which ones will yield a risk adjusted profit above their particular profit threshold. So say they determine that they will work and keep 800 notes. The next step is to offer the 200 notes to another hedge or private equity fund with a different risk return profile. The high bidder in this second round buys the 200 remaining notes, their analysts do similar analysis, and say they determine that 150 notes meet their risk adjusted return criteria.
So the second fund now asks for bids from retail asset disposers, such as Granite. Granite purchases the last 50 notes, does their analysis, and makes a determination if any of those notes are worth holding. Say they find 5 notes overlooked or misanalized by the previous two funds. They take those notes and package them with others from similar purchases, and sell them along with their analysis back to private investment funds.
This leaves the 45 notes from a package of 1000 that 3 professional investment funds have determined can not yield even a minimal investment return. These are then offered to the individual investor, who according to those in the industry " with something to sell" can profit enormously by (1) making them re performing notes or (2) foreclosing and selling the property for large profits.
The pitch from those "with something to sell" is twofold. (1) There is plenty of meat left on the bone (actual quote) and (2) if you send the borrower a complete package of all docs, weighing say five pounds you will " shock and awe" him into paying on the note. I highly doubt either of these have even a micron of validity.
The parties with a financial interest in you buying into this will site isolated instances of great success, never mentioned the all more frequent instances of total failure.
So at the end of the day Eddie Speed has collected $30,000 per person for his NPN mentoring program, Granite has made 50 to 100% profit on their inventory, private middlemen have turned a $2500 investment in a note into $16,000, and my sister in law who purchased 5 NPNs over three years ago and has spend large amounts on attorneys, taxes, and brokers has yet to see a penny in return.
To paraphrase, if you don't know who the sucker is in any ultra high profit promise situation, it's you.
- 10yDion DePaoliPro MemberReal Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Most of this probably boils down to experience. There is a lot of information out there that comes from folks with very minimal amount of experience with notes. That leads to misinformation. Those folks talk like experts and to the newbie they can't know the difference. The problem then becomes it is very difficult to bring the audience back to reality once they are in fairy tale land. They don't want the romantic notion of high returns in quick time with minimal effort to not be true.
The extraordinary drives the ideas not the ordinary. There has always been a romance around working with distressed notes. Save the borrower save the world type thing. If I had a nickle for every pitch I have seen or heard of how some operator or investor is going to buy defaulted loans and do modifications or create quick dispositions through DIL's and shorts I would be sitting on an island somewhere drinking a martini enjoying the sun.
A borrower who is already not paying is going to be saved by a newbie. The newbie is going to do something multi-billion dollar servicing firms, banks and investors can't. To some extent the idea relies on this borrower sitting around stock piling money under their mattress waiting for the newbie note investor to come along and work the magic and reinstate the loan with some magical modification formula. That is so far from reality it pains me to think about it.
In most distressed loans we do not have borrowers who can but are not paying. We have borrowers who can not pay because they lack the financial means to stay on top of the obligation. Nobody is trying to get foreclosed on purpose. Post modification or reinstatement defaults are high because the borrowers simply don't have enough money to handle the obligation even at reduced rates. A lot of what newbie note investors are buying are still these 2005-2008 vintage loans that were high LTV, high DTI and low credit. They were bad borrowers to begin with. You can't save a bad borrower. Reality is, they should have never had the loan to begin with. In that sense, I personally think it is a disservice to everyone involved to "try" and make it work. Hope doesn't covert into cash.
I think one of the other typically ignored drivers of the misconceptions that newbies have deals with their time estimates and exit plans. Newbies talk about modification as being one step away from exiting the note. "Modify the loan and collect X number of payments and then you can sell it" So what that gives us is a temporary investor who tries to treat a long term asset like a short term play. All they have to do is get that borrower to make those X payments and poof... they can sell the loan and move on. It is a huge misguided over simplification of working with loans. Everybody wants to "be the bank" but nobody wants to act like a bank that makes 30 year loans. Because these investors do not plan to be in the loan investment for any great term they misunderstand how to look at the investment to begin with. Who cares about 1 year of payments if I am looking to buy the loan with 25 years left? Past performance is not indicative of future results.
We see this mentality in PN's and NPN's. The flipper mentality. Everybody wants to be rich over night. Newbies only target short term foreclosure states. Newbies think every cash flowing loan is worth 12% yield. Investments can be worked through in 6 months. The note investor who bought one loan some how becomes an expert. They tell their friends about it. What gets said is treated like gospel. Then the misinformation is spread like a disease into other newbies. Those who talk from experience are ignored if the message doesn't match the romance.
I think one of the other drivers is the guru club scams. I have seen most of all the popular icons that get talked about here on BP's boards including their work and some of their assets. I do not like any of them. I would classify damn near all of them as garbage. And "Yes", I mean ALL of them. These gurus and icons need the romance to stick around. Reality is not their friend. The romance lets them jack up the price of assets. One of the popular icons primary asset is not even loans, they are land contracts. It is a joke being played on newbies and they don't seem to get it. I digress.
In the real world things take longer, cost more money and provide lower returns than generally planned for. To be a good investor in this asset class you have to be a good manager. Being a good manager starts with having realistic expectations. There is no magic in mortgages. Note investing is not a shortcut to get rich overnight. - 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Dion DePaoli out of sheer curiosity this morning I listened to a pod cast that interviewed the owner of Paper source I think it is @Bob Malecki Bob said it was a good listen .
the gentlemen being interviewed says that he has been buying notes since the mid 80's which of course I am sure he has.
then he made what I thought was a pretty if not strange but unique statement.. the Kids interviewing them asked how he hands his foreclosures on his NPN...
his answer was well " in 30 years I have only foreclosed once" the kids were then scrambling as they did not expect that and of course its sound like they are personally buying distressed notes in Cook county and we know how tough that place is. So he went on to say he just works with them etc etc..
I am not saying I disbelieve him but if that is in fact the case of a 30 year NPN buying career and he said he buys lots of seconds as well. and to only have 1 foreclosure and that all other notes were repositioned and paid basically each month....... that is one Hell of a track record.
- Investor · Kerrville, TX · Member since 2015 · 53 posts · 72 votes10y
I just posted in your comment on this in another thread...I don't buy NPNs, I was referring to performing notes. On the few that have gone bad I have been able to work with the debtors instead of foreclosing. If they were specifically asking me about NPNs, I didn't pick up on that.
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@William "W.J" Mencarow got it.. still liked the pod cast.. just shocked me too.
having been in the paper game as long as you.. I have never talked to or heard anyone say they have only had 1 foreclosure in 30 years.
Hell in 08 and 09 I had 200 of them alone LOL>... and it was not pretty ...
So I guess I am just jelous how you could have only 1...
- 10yDion DePaoliPro MemberReal Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
@William "W.J" Mencarow
What has been the general characteristics of the loans you have purchased?
Only having one foreclosure, not knowing how many loans in volume that means, through the RTC days and through the '07-'08 Crash is pretty astounding.
I would presume by saying you haven't foreclosed doesn't mean you have not had defaults rather the dispositions you managed were alternatives to foreclosure. So you are buying loans with good LTVs and decent borrowers with income and assets to support the loans, right?
I mean Fannie Mae's historical default rate is less than 3%. It was much higher after the crash though.
It seems note investing podcasts seem to, at times, miss important details which much of the audience doesn't stop to contemplate. - Investor · Kerrville, TX · Member since 2015 · 53 posts · 72 votes10y
"I would presume by saying you haven't foreclosed doesn't mean you have not had defaults rather the dispositions you managed were alternatives to foreclosure. So you are buying loans with good LTVs and decent borrowers with income and assets to support the loans, right?"
Exactly.
- 10yDion DePaoliPro MemberReal Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
That was good stuff. That said, Granite is closed. My firm actually consulted Granite when they were first starting up. Granite's model was to buy the tail end of pools from institutions, mainly Citi and offer them under a stressful sales environment. Something we advised against. This allowed them to really just target low value and lower price assets with little actual actual planning. In that, Granite came on to the market and had the first real platform of sales, opposed to broker joker circles, where the investors were all pitted against each other on a first come first serve basis. All bids had to be final when delivered. That also means as an investor you could spend money on due diligence and finally get to the final bid to find out the assets traded weeks ago.
In a recent offering circulated by Eddie Speed, they do the same crap. Final bids only on first come first serve basis. They even had pricing for members and higher prices for non-members. Something I find laughable and appalling at the same time. In the last couple of offerings that we have seen from them they are not even selling loans, they are selling land contracts. I guess they don't expose that in the $15,000 seminars. - 10yDon KonipolBusiness MemberInvestor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
Got to tell you, William Mencarow and his publication/company Papersouce have a long and sterling reputation among individual note investors. One of only two or three places I go for information and knowledge.
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