Newbie Question on Medium-Risk ROI

Newbie Question on Medium-Risk ROI

Rental Property Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 68 posts · 34 votes

Hi All,

New-ish real estate investor (I have a couple of buy-and-holds and am working on my first multifamily deal) and erstwhile software developer here.  I'm looking to transition to full-time RE investing in the next year or two.  It seems to me, personal finance-wise, that once you have six figures to invest you're much better off figuring out how to better leverage that money than you are plodding away at your day job...even if it's a lucrative one.  That's how I came to RE and BP...the latest episode with Bob Malecki got me very intrigued with notes.

Now that I've read a whole lot about performing, NPNs, all the ways that it's finance and not RE, the myriad things you need to know about each level of the note ecosystem and the laws that apply to each place, etc...I'm not scared off!  But I've got one foot in the water now and am wondering if notes is where I want to invest my time and energy for the foreseeable future.

I'm a hustler and no stranger to many, many months of hard work before seeing anything from it.  My concerns on whether this is ultimately the place for me for the next 5-10 years center around ROI. Obviously, how risky you're willing to go is a big factor...specializing in 2nds on NPNs seems like a good way to learn the hard way to respect the inevitable next downturn. Anyway, I can go out and get a 10-12% annual ROI with minimal effort in any number of places--buy and hold rentals, larger multifamily deals, JVs, funds, etc. Assuming I put in the hundreds of hours required to master this niche, what are my odds of seeing 15%, 20%, or even 30% annual returns in, say, NPN 1sts or NPN 1sts in combination with performing? Again, I'm not afraid of the work, but if it's years of paying dues before I'll be sniffing 15%, I can think of other routes to go. Not trying to come across entitled here...I know how hard it is to get these numbers anywhere.

Obviously goals affect the answer: I'm looking to finish replacing my day job salary with RE monthly income within the next 3 years, then scale up more conservatively (slant more heavily toward performing notes?) over the following decade.  Eventually I'll probably want to be mostly passive but it's hard to get good at something and not enjoy it :)

Anyway, if you're a frequent poster here chances are I've already read a good number of your posts so....THANK YOU for being an amazing resource for me already as I explore this exciting corner of investing!

Cheers,
Brian

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Wayne SnellPro Member
Londonderry NH & Miami, FL · Member since 2014 · 174 posts · 238 votes
9y

Hi @Brian Bistolfo That is exactly the type of mindset you need to succeed. Yes, there are deals in the NPN world that can earn 15-30%. But there are just as many deals in the 10-14% as well. I focus on 1sts myself. I was in the software development world for over 30 years before I went full-time with notes last year. I recorded a video that you might want to watch that talks about the systems, processes and mindset you need to make it full-time. If interested, connect with me and I will share the link with you if you haven't already watched it. Good luck!

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  • Wayne SnellPro Member
    Londonderry NH & Miami, FL · Member since 2014 · 174 posts · 238 votes
    9y

    Hi @Brian Bistolfo That is exactly the type of mindset you need to succeed. Yes, there are deals in the NPN world that can earn 15-30%. But there are just as many deals in the 10-14% as well. I focus on 1sts myself. I was in the software development world for over 30 years before I went full-time with notes last year. I recorded a video that you might want to watch that talks about the systems, processes and mindset you need to make it full-time. If interested, connect with me and I will share the link with you if you haven't already watched it. Good luck!

  • Rental Property Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 68 posts · 34 votes
    9y

    @Wayne Snell Thanks for the encouragement and the general figures...I'll send you a PM.

    I guess another way to ask would be...if you're focusing on:

    • Performing
    • Non-performing
    • Non-performing seconds
    • Some blend of the above

    What are the annual ROI figures you're shooting for and what level of risk do you feel you're at to achieve those figures? I know this is active investing so obviously everyone is leveraging expertise and connections too; still, just trying to wrap my head around the ballpark numbers in this space.

    Edit: Here's a third way to ask: In one of the above categories, what's the ROI you're likely to see if a given deal ends up being 1) an average deal, 2) a home run, or 3) goes way south...and what proportion of each do you tend to get in that category?

    I know, I'm only asking to completely open the kimono here :) ...

  • Wayne SnellPro Member
    Londonderry NH & Miami, FL · Member since 2014 · 174 posts · 238 votes
    9y

    Brian we shoot for between 10-12% minimum annual ROI for our note deals. If the projected returns are at 25% or greater we will offer up the deal to JV partners where they fund the deal and we will do all of the work and split the profits after the return of capital. On average we see 40% of our NPNs reperform, 60% go to foreclosure or getting a Deed in Lieu (DIL). Occasionally 1in 20 of the deals are considered "home runs" with returns >50% but they are typically because of the seller undervaluing the asset or due to market appreciation. This is in no way typical and past performance is not a guarantee of future returns :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 68 posts · 34 votes
    9y

    Many thanks @Wayne Snell, fantastic answers here already. I'll have to do a little more digging to come up with usual numbers on each of those scenarios, but regardless that's super helpful to know how many deals are ending up in each bucket. There's a lot of the usual guru junk out there in the notes space, all that "Look how I sold a re-performing note for a 120% ROI on a 2nd that I bought for just pennies on the dollar!!" and yeah, some of those home runs are possible, but it's surprisingly tough figuring out what the norm is.

    10-12% seems like a good minimum...just out of curiosity, why are you offering up what seem to be the "better" deals at 25% or more to JV partners? Or are they higher because they're higher risk and it's better for everyone not to go it alone there?

  • Wayne SnellPro Member
    Londonderry NH & Miami, FL · Member since 2014 · 174 posts · 238 votes
    9y

    It's all about capital usage. The more we can put capital to use the more deals were able to buy. When we're only going to receive a 10 to 12% return it makes no sense to joint venture on those deals because the returns are too low for both of us. We JV on deals where we see a projected 25% total return or greater so that we both can make money on the exit. JVing allows us to take our capital out of the deal and deploy it on another one. We're buying 15-20 notes a month. Make sense?

  • Wayne SnellPro Member
    Londonderry NH & Miami, FL · Member since 2014 · 174 posts · 238 votes
    9y

    I should have mentioned we only typically joint venture on a third of our deals each month.  For the rest we remain in them with our own capital.

  • Rental Property Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 68 posts · 34 votes
    9y

    Yeah absolutely.  And I can imagine the scenarios where you've got a 10% deal that's better than nothing but not worth it to split up.

  • Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    We purchase senior NPLs on residential properties and look for a min 15% annualized return on the expected income from reperformance. Through some very selective underwriting we are currently on a 27% trajectory in our portfolio and still have more cash to deploy. This is one of the best benefits of being able to purchase distressed debt at a steep discount. 

  • Professional · Carlsbad, CA · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Brian Bistolfo

    Welcome to Bigger Pockets. You are at the right place to learn about real estate investing.

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