So I’ve been to a couple notes seminars... now what?

So I’ve been to a couple notes seminars... now what?

Specialist · Member since 2018 · 41 posts · 16 votes

I’ve attended NoteExpo 2018 and the recent Note Camp, and I’ve walked away with a colossal list of vendors for things I apparently need but didn’t realize I need. However, what I still don’t have is knowledge of the basic nuts and bolts of notes investing; although, Note Camp did a really good job of hosting some sessions where they walked through some basics in detail. So Scott Carson did a good job there.

Nonetheless, how do I even price a note? Let’s start there! How do I even figure out the fair market value of the damn thing??

Lots of “abnormal returns” case studies are thrown out, numbers are spouted off at lightning speed, and people are told, “It’s that easy.” Okay. Then why can’t anyone stop to talk about something as basic and supposedly “easy” as simple pricing? Let’s walk through that first before you tell me how easy I’ll apparently become a gazillionaire.

This seems like a basic thing, and I can’t find a good source for some of this. And no, I’m not paying someone thousands of dollars to show me how to present value a future cash flow expectation. I can do that all day long myself, and when I do, none of the note prices I’m seeing come remotely close to making sense. That’s what I’m missing, and it’s what I get the feeling a lot of others are missing too.

For example, I brought up Fed rate increases to one guy and asked how they’d affect the fair market value of notes, and he said, “It won’t really; that’s not how the notes market works.” Uh what? Since when are debt instruments traded in a secondary OTC market not rate sensitive? So you’re telling me duration and convexity don’t apply to fixed income instruments anymore? lolwut

THAT’s the sort of thing I’m talking about. Some of these supposedly simple things are not making sense.

Is there a basic guide out there that explains some of this at a low level? I’m not opposed to buying a well written technical book or article, but I’m not doing the whole, “Give me $2,000 and we’ll talk basics” thing.

My impression of the notes market so far is there is limited market transparency with zero to limited price discovery. Basically, people are making up what they want it to be, and a few have gotten lucky doing that. Maybe that’s accruate and maybe it’s not.

Any recommendations from the smart people on here on where to go to bridge these knowledge gaps? I’m looking for solid technical references, as I’ve not been able to find myself (so I’m clearly not looking in the right places).

Any help would be appreciated.

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Mitchellville, MD · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 6 votes
7y

Hi Gordon,  I’m new to notes and I was at the Note Expo also.  I completely understand your frustration.  Here are a couple things that helped me and you may found useful:

1. Note Closers Show Podcast Episode #361 by Scott Carson —He provides a ‘guide’ to using the Stair Step Pricing Model

2. Book -What Every Real Estate Investor Needs to Know About Cash Flow by Frank Gallinelli (available on Kindle)

Hope it helps  

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  • Ronald RohdePro Member
    Attorney · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Scott Kimberly:

    @Chris Seveney I am not sure yet what my business model will be, if only because I am learning what my options are when it comes to notes. If we want to start with the end in mind, it would be awesome to cash flow $10,000 a month as quickly as possible because then I can very comfortably leave my job and basically be able to do whatever I want. But I don't necessarily think I will stop there.

    As for strategy, so far I have learned the 30,000 ft views on what you can do with Performing 1sts, Non-performing 1sts, and Non-Performing 2nds with Performing 1sts. Performing 1sts I would probably pay Par or higher for because they are very safe, cash flowing assets. (Relatively speaking). Non-performing 1sts are less expensive but, riskier since the homeowner might not come current again and you may have to foreclose. If they DO become current again and you can get the loan through 're-performing' back to 'performing', you can sell it for a profit.  Non-Performing 2nds are dirt cheap (or so I've been told) and if they are attached to a home that has a Performing 1st, then they are more likely to be able to re-perform and then perform, at which point you can sell for a large profit. But they are the riskiest of the 3. 

    Please correct me if I am wrong, that is just what I've gleaned after a literal week of learning.

    My question in all of this is "how would you wholesale a Note?". Is that different from a referral? I understand how you can flip Notes by getting them to re-perform and then perform again, but the Wholesaling part is new information.

     Do you have that principal ready to invest? $120k a year as net profit requires significant capital or significant risk.

  • Cheshire, CT · Member since 2018 · 87 posts · 60 votes
    7y

     Nope. That's why I am here. To figure out how ridiculous a notion it is to want to make the kind of passive income or what it would take to do it anyway. My question back to you is: can you define "significant capital" and "significant risk"? I know what the words mean, but numbers are more eye opening.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    @Scott Kimberly significant risk would be quitting your job thinking 10k worth of notes a month will continue un interrupted.  what would happen if one or two months only 5k came in.. thats the risk

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y

    If you were to make 12% that’s $1M to bring in that kind of money. There is risk involved at that level. to start from zero and get there in one year I would say it is nearly impossible. Of course there are people that have done it But it is very rare. To get to that level the best chance would be to start a fund with accredited investors - but you need to have a great track record. 

    If you said you want to quit your day job in 5-7 years then I would tell you that is very doable. 

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  • Cheshire, CT · Member since 2018 · 87 posts · 60 votes
    7y

    Thank you everyone for the information! I know I mentioned doing something in a year somewhere on BP today, but I don't think it was here. If "as fast as possible" is 5-7 year's, then so be it. I have plenty of time. 

    As for risk, everything is a risk, but a calculated one. If I quit my day job and was making $10k a month from a Note portfolio, that seemingly arbitrary number is around double what my actual expenses are. I think the bigger issue would be "can I grow at the rate I want while also working a day job" which is a different story.

    I do appreciate all of you input though, if I say something that sounds absolutely ridiculous and unfeasible, continue to call me out. I am trying to figure out how all the happy stories of success and riches I read relate to that real world.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Scott Kimberly:

    Thank you everyone for the information! I know I mentioned doing something in a year somewhere on BP today, but I don't think it was here. If "as fast as possible" is 5-7 year's, then so be it. I have plenty of time. 

    As for risk, everything is a risk, but a calculated one. If I quit my day job and was making $10k a month from a Note portfolio, that seemingly arbitrary number is around double what my actual expenses are. I think the bigger issue would be "can I grow at the rate I want while also working a day job" which is a different story.

    I do appreciate all of you input though, if I say something that sounds absolutely ridiculous and unfeasible, continue to call me out. I am trying to figure out how all the happy stories of success and riches I read relate to that real world.

     well depending on the state your in your 10k a month after tax is more like 7k... so for me I always double what I think my goal is for an income number.. I want to make 500k in a year in my mind I need to bring in 700 to 1 mil depending .. so if you want to net 120k you need to bring in 170ish.. 

  • Note Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2012 · 602 posts · 357 votes
    7y

    @Gordon F. I only wished I called 50 a day.  There are a ton of banks AND private lending institutions and funds entering the market.  If I continued to call like you said, I'd never have any time to follow up with the lenders or review any assets that they had available.  I don't need 5,000 banks and as my buddy, Brecht at Distressedpro would say, You only need a few banks to send you stuff on a regular basis.  

    Banks and lending institutions come and go, along with asset managers and other employees at banks.  There is ZERO chance of me calling every bank effectively out there.  My database is about 7,500 banks with only a 8-20% open rate on my emails.  That still leaves plenty of opportunity for others to reach out.  

    Most note investors who get into the business only want to spend time buying from the low hanging fruit.  So those sources do get overrun and bid up beyond prices that actually make sense to us real note investors.

    It's still a small, niche business of relationships.  Calling and making contact work as long as you work it and follow up and follow up and follow up!  What it comes down is most people want to complain about a lack of inventory or pricing without actually going out and marketing.  

  • Specialist · Member since 2018 · 41 posts · 16 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Scott Carson:

    @Gordon F. I only wished I called 50 a day.  There are a ton of banks AND private lending institutions and funds entering the market.  If I continued to call like you said, I'd never have any time to follow up with the lenders or review any assets that they had available.  I don't need 5,000 banks and as my buddy, Brecht at Distressedpro would say, You only need a few banks to send you stuff on a regular basis.  

    Banks and lending institutions come and go, along with asset managers and other employees at banks.  There is ZERO chance of me calling every bank effectively out there.  My database is about 7,500 banks with only a 8-20% open rate on my emails.  That still leaves plenty of opportunity for others to reach out.  

    Most note investors who get into the business only want to spend time buying from the low hanging fruit.  So those sources do get overrun and bid up beyond prices that actually make sense to us real note investors.

    It's still a small, niche business of relationships.  Calling and making contact work as long as you work it and follow up and follow up and follow up!  What it comes down is most people want to complain about a lack of inventory or pricing without actually going out and marketing.  

    Scott, thanks for the insight, and this makes a lot of sense.  I appreciate the reply.

    Also, @Scott Kimberly I like to use @Scott Carson as an example, because I personally think that he's done a great job at building a business, and you can probably use his path through all of this as a guide.  Note that he and I don't know each other at all, and he certainly doesn't need my approval of his business.  

    Having said that, he started in 2007 and now in 2019, you can see where he's at after 12 years.  That was going at it 24/7 as his full-time job, I believe, during all of those years.  Assuming you were able to quit your day job now, you could probably reasonably expect to have a nice business from note investing by 2031.  That probably seems far away, but for every day you don't start, that number gets pushed farther out.  2032, 2033, 2034... 2055, etc.

    @Chris Seveney is still full-time employed, I believe, but I also think that's as a real estate agent.  Chris, correct me if I'm wrong -- I'm sorry, I don't know your full story.   Nonetheless, the impression I get is there are a lot of synergies with note investing and his day job, so he's probably able to make it work easier than someone who's not involved in real estate at all.  

    I think @Jay Hinrichs took over his family's real estate business and then has worked his entire professional career to get it to where it's at today.  Jay, I admittedly don't know your full story, either, so correct me if I'm wrong.  Nonetheless, it sounds like he was able to pick something up that was already going, and then it's still taken years of really hard work to get to where he's at today.  So even starting out a step ahead of others, it still takes a long time, blood, sweat, and tears.

    If you're looking for reasonable time lines for someone who isn't currently involved in real estate (and I admittedly don't know your full story either, so maybe you are involved with real estate in some fashion currently), I'd say it'll take 12 years to build a solid business you can live off of, if you did it 24/7/365 for all of those years.  This also assumes you have some minimal amount of capital to start.  Can you at least fund one deal on your own?  If so, that's at least a starting point.  That's where I'm at, so we'd be in the same boat.  If you're going to do it part time, I'd double that time frame, but that depends more on how many hours of sleep you need a night.  If you can pull 20 hour days and keep it together, that's awesome, go for it.  That seems to be where Chris is at, so maybe some tips from him on how to successfully pull off combat sleep would be helpful.

    Apologies to anyone whose information I got wrong above.  Feel free to correct.  I also know I left out a metric ton of details on your stories, so feel free to include.

  • Specialist · Delran, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 951 votes
    7y

    @Gordon F. I'm fairly certain @Chris Seveney is closer to 27 hours a day.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y

    I work in real estate for my day job (not an agent) - I manage the development and construction of projects. So I am used to managing 50+ consultants at a time and $100’s of millions of dollars with complex financing schemes and budgets

    For me my day job has been very helpful but to keep it very simple / I just did what @Scott Carson taught me. And for me I don’t work 20 hour days - I have my systems automated so in some tasks that people spend hours per week on I spend minutes and get more done because I use systems that streamline things. Yes they cost money but I can spend that time making a lot more than what I pay for those systems

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  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 844 posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Scott Kimberly:

     Nope. That's why I am here. To figure out how ridiculous a notion it is to want to make the kind of passive income or what it would take to do it anyway. My question back to you is: can you define "significant capital" and "significant risk"? I know what the words mean, but numbers are more eye opening.

    I don't think it is ridiculous at all. If you are looking to net 120k per year and don't have 1 to 1.5 million lying around to invest in a diverse portfolio of secured, unsecured and mezzanine debt, the fastest way would be for you to be the syndicator or investment manager of a portfolio of note investments. However, not everyone has the ability or fortitude to reach this level. But if you do and are successful, then 120k will be just the beginning for you...albeit it wouldn't exactly be passive.

    I work at a boutique private equity firm that invests in bank debt and also originates loans. The people in our firm who generate business have been in the industry for a very long time with extensive connections and are major players in the business world. And this is just the investment side of the business. You also have to find investors who are willing to invest and partner up with you. This is a very difficult thing to do that takes a lot of time and effort. But once accomplished, it can be very rewarding as it has been for the principals of the company I work for. 

  • Cheshire, CT · Member since 2018 · 87 posts · 60 votes
    7y

    Thank you all for the reality check! Its very much appreciated.

  • Ronald RohdePro Member
    Attorney · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

    If you were to make 12% that’s $1M to bring in that kind of money. There is risk involved at that level. to start from zero and get there in one year I would say it is nearly impossible. Of course there are people that have done it But it is very rare. To get to that level the best chance would be to start a fund with accredited investors - but you need to have a great track record. 

    If you said you want to quit your day job in 5-7 years then I would tell you that is very doable. 

     and 12% is pretty significant risk especially for secured debt. Junk territory.

    To expand on the 5-7 year timeline, if you go self-employed you can accelerate income/savings and investments.

    Bottom line is that everyone who earns a living from REI treats it with the utmost focus and discipline, if you don't you will lose money.

  • Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 75 posts · 43 votes
    7y

    @Gordon F. I would say, not only are you wrong about that, you're WAY off base. Why would you call mortgage lenders for notes?! That's not where you look... of course,you're going to come up with a big zero that way, but, I love it that so many people THINK that contacting banks is the way to go when looking for notes. Let them stab at windmills while i'm finding actual business. You don't call lenders; you MAIL to known note holder lists and also (most importantly) you market to attorneys, accountants, financial planners and real estate people who, over time, become note referral sources for you. There's plenty of business to be had. Another thing-- marketing is actually a LEVEL playing field-- you can play with the big boys here if you have the right list(s) of know how to market. Why do insurance companies (i.e., Allstate, State Farm) employ agencies? Because the home offices can't possibly find all teh leads there are to find, so they take referrals and pay their agents for them. Note brokering is really no different. If I get there first, i earn the $$. Also, @Scott Kimberly you don't want to target only other investors who are wholesaling themselves, you want INDIVIDUAL note holders especially and you do that through the ways I just mentioned above. I've compiled quite a bit of material about note sourcing, especially if you are just starting out.Just PM me if you want and i can shoot some of this your way.

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