Tracking Note Income (capital gain from sale or income)

Tracking Note Income (capital gain from sale or income)

Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes

I have been investing in notes since 2017 and it's been a pretty simple process. Several people in my area invest with a JV that manages the ins/outs and have had good results. We have had numerous discussions in our group about how to track income and what does that really mean.

Recently we had a note that was paid off so in essence it wasn't a sale - or was it? This is the first time a note was paid off by the borrower. 

We have had notes that truly were a sale and profited from what we originally funded to that of the sale and payments in-between that were what we gained as income.

I realize there are many levels to tracking and what is considered income (eg. capital gain, payments that are both principal and interest and is interest really only considered income where the principal is the capital investment). And then there is the discounted rate at which the CPA considers - not part of this topic.

To keep this very simple in terms of discussion: 

1-how do you track your profit when a note is paid off? Is it the same as a sale? 


For instance, you invest/fund to purchase a note at $60k for which the UPB is $120. If you sell after a couple years of payments for $75k then profit is anything over that initial $60k cost (sands any other expenses/fees just keep it simple). But if the borrower pays off the $120 (likely less since payments being made for a few years reduce the UPB), it's still greater than the initial $60k so do you consider that like a sale and just caulk it up to capital gain?


Just trying to keep this as a simple example - I realize there are a lot of moving parts to this.

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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
5y

@Daria B. To start I am not a CPA or attorney but the way my books are handled:

If a note is paid off or sold to another investor - mine are tracked the same. You have X amount of money spent on the note and Y amount of income. The delta is your profit and loss (which in my business notes are considered interest and taxed as ordinary income). 

So in your example you bought it for $60k and they paid you $125k off - you profited $65k. Also something to consider is if you bought it for $60k while they are paying, the interest you are making is also taxed. Some people think you do not start paying taxes until you are paid off - which the equivalent would be buying a $100k rental and collecting $1000 a month in rent and thinking that $1000 is not taxable. Of course it is - its income. 

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  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    5y

    @Daria B. To start I am not a CPA or attorney but the way my books are handled:

    If a note is paid off or sold to another investor - mine are tracked the same. You have X amount of money spent on the note and Y amount of income. The delta is your profit and loss (which in my business notes are considered interest and taxed as ordinary income). 

    So in your example you bought it for $60k and they paid you $125k off - you profited $65k. Also something to consider is if you bought it for $60k while they are paying, the interest you are making is also taxed. Some people think you do not start paying taxes until you are paid off - which the equivalent would be buying a $100k rental and collecting $1000 a month in rent and thinking that $1000 is not taxable. Of course it is - its income. 

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  • Lender · Ladera Ranch, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Daria B. I am also not an accountant and advise you to seek your own accounting professional. Here is what I do and how I look at things.

    When we purchase a NPN, we list it as an "Other Asset," which is listed on the balance sheet. Any money coming in or out regarding this asset, gets booked here. Any liquidation event (payoff, sale at trustee sale, REO sale, or re-sale of the loan) is the "sale" that you refer to above.

    When this number is applied to the cost basis (the ledger of the Other Asset), we are left with the "Gain/Loss on Sale," which is an income account. In your example, $60k is the purchase price and cost basis. If you get a $120k payoff, $60k zeroes out the "Other Asset" and the other $60k is booked as "Gain/Loss on Sale."

    This is how we do it.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    5y

    @Daria B.

    Did this all make sense? I can send you a copy of a balance sheet for a closed out asset if you like

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  • Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

    @Daria B.

    Did this all make sense? I can send you a copy of a balance sheet for a closed out asset if you like

    Not complete but I think enough that I understand initial capital "may" come back when a note is sold for profit. In the case of one that is paid off by the borrower, there isn't any initial capital considering the pay down / pay off but the principal that is included in the payments (P/I) is capital payback. I had always been accustomed to getting my initial capital back but then again we were always in the mode of selling after a period of time to another investor where there was still UPB.

    In my example, purchase was $60k (not UPB), they paid down the UPB ($120k) doing extra payments including any arrears until paid off. Nothing to sell so the $60k invested?

    For tracking purposes, I'm not really sure how to do a payoff because it appears that it's a loss with the way I am currently doing tracking, which is very, very, very simple. 

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    5y

    @Daria B.

    The way my cpa and book keeper do it The UPB is irrelevant.

    I paid X ($60k) for an asset.

    If it sold for $100k I made $40k profit. Whether upb was $200k or $400k is irrelevant.

    If borrower made payments during that time the interest is taxed as income and principal pays for my investment

    So say the $60k note borrower made 10 payments and it was $5k in principal and $5k in interest

    My basis is now $55k and I sell for 100 I made $5k in interest plus 45k from sale so I made $50k

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  • Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

    @Daria B.

    The way my cpa and book keeper do it The UPB is irrelevant.

    I paid X ($60k) for an asset.

    If it sold for $100k I made $40k profit. Whether upb was $200k or $400k is irrelevant.

    If borrower made payments during that time the interest is taxed as income and principal pays for my investment

    So say the $60k note borrower made 10 payments and it was $5k in principal and $5k in interest

    My basis is now $55k and I sell for 100 I made $5k in interest plus 45k from sale so I made $50k

    In my case example though the borrower paid off the note, it wasn't a sale. I mention UPB just for the sake of info.

    In your example the principal is paying down the cost basis ($60k). I would need to look at the principal amounts of those payments to reduce the $60k, I get that.

    So say, I pay $60k, borrower makes some regular payments (p/i) for 2yr (arbitrary number) then decided along the way to just pay off the note.

    Borrower gets savvy and makes additional principal only payments. This should reduce my cost basis, yes, thereby paying back my initial purchase money through the extra principal payments. 

    How do you track that? 

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    5y

    @Daria B.

    We track everything In quickbooks

    The purchase price is listed on the asset side of your balance sheet. When you receive principal back it stays on the asset side of the balance sheet to reduce your basis (which can also be increased by servicing fees etc).

    Interest goes on your profit and loss statement.

    Interest does not reduce your cost basis as it’s considered profit even if you have not hit your cost basis (similar to rent payment it doesn’t reduce your basis).

    Make sense

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Daria B.:
    Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

    @Daria B.

    The way my cpa and book keeper do it The UPB is irrelevant.

    I paid X ($60k) for an asset.

    If it sold for $100k I made $40k profit. Whether upb was $200k or $400k is irrelevant.

    If borrower made payments during that time the interest is taxed as income and principal pays for my investment

    So say the $60k note borrower made 10 payments and it was $5k in principal and $5k in interest

    My basis is now $55k and I sell for 100 I made $5k in interest plus 45k from sale so I made $50k

    In my case example though the borrower paid off the note, it wasn't a sale. I mention UPB just for the sake of info.

    In your example the principal is paying down the cost basis ($60k). I would need to look at the principal amounts of those payments to reduce the $60k, I get that.

    So say, I pay $60k, borrower makes some regular payments (p/i) for 2yr (arbitrary number) then decided along the way to just pay off the note.

    Borrower gets savvy and makes additional principal only payments. This should reduce my cost basis, yes, thereby paying back my initial purchase money through the extra principal payments. 

    How do you track that?

    very simple any income over basis is taxable.   if they are paying principal down  you basis does not go down its just return of principle which is not taxed. 

  • Lender · Ladera Ranch, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Daria B. This can be confusing. I'm not an accounting expert but I've noticed that, sometimes, there are a few different ways to book things that are acceptable. Other times, there's only one way. Ultimately, the best advice comes from your CPA. Find out how he or she wants to book these types of transactions and then stay consistent with that method.

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