Minneapolis, Minnesota Remodel

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Minneapolis, Minnesota Remodel

Eli Sunderland
Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 37 votes

Hi All,

Here's my situation:  I'm currently under contract for my first property!  A duplex near uptown.  It needs some cosmetic updates, and I want to finish the attic and turn in into 2 more bedrooms.  

My question to you all is this:  What parts of any kind of work on the home can I legally do myself?  I am going to be living in it, but also renting the other side, so I know there are some differences between what you can do yourself if you are going to rent the property out.  

My current understanding is that I can do pretty much any cosmetic work myself, painting, flooring, etc., but I'm more looking for what I legally must hire a contractor to do.  I have several friends and family members that are very handy, (one of them is an apprentice electrician), so I'd prefer to do as much of the rehab as possible, that I can do legally.  For example, can I do minor electrical work like wiring a new light fixture, or basic plumbing, like installing a new vanity in a bathroom without hiring a licensed contractor?

Also, this is slightly off topic, but for those of you with rental properties near uptown, or more specifically, in the Whittier neighborhood of minneapolis, I'd love to hear what you are renting your places for, including square footage and number of beds/baths.  I've got current estimates in mind, but I'd like to check it with your numbers, if possible!

Thank you all in advance!  

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Bruce Runn
Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 743 posts · 927 votes
9y

@Jordan Moorhead

Adding bedroom has nothing to do with zoning.  He's adding 2 more bedrooms to the 2nd unit.  I've added bedrooms in numerous places I own.  It's how you jump start the cash flow to make it really work for you.

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  • Kelly Conrad
    Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    Hello! All those minor things you can do. Looks like major electric upgrades, structural repairs, new additions, plumbing, and grading often require special licenses and/or permits from a municipal or local government. 

    1Reply
  • Joseph Lee
    Rental Property Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 60 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    Hey @Eli Sunderland- your best resource is the City of Minneapolis website and their page on permits. Just google something like "construction permits in Minneapolis" and it will get you to the right place. 

    Big picture is that you have to pull a permit for most everything on top of painting or other cometic things like replacing cabinets or changing flooring. If you tear into a wall, you will need a permit. If you want to install a new outlet, you will need a permit. If you want to add a dishwasher and hook that up to your plumbing, you will need a permit. You get the idea. 

    As the homeowner, you can pull your old building permits (drywalling, framing, etc.) and do your own work. That's the one positive. You cannot pull your own plumbing or electrical permits, though. I can't remember the exact reason, but I believe it's because it's a multi-family unit, even though you live in it. Those must be pulled by someone licensed in Minneapolis, which is apparently more strict than being licensed by the state. Legally speaking, about the only electrical work you can do without a permit is swapping outlets and fixtures. The only plumbing work you can do without a permit is add an ice maker in your fridge and some other ridiculous exception, along with minor repairs like unclogging. Technically speaking, you can't even change a fixture in your bathroom without a permit by the letter of the city statutes.

    I'll stay off my soapbox, but if you think this sounds a little ridiculous, I'm with you.

    If anyone needs to correct me, please do, but this is what I've learned from reading their online materials, city codes, and talking with inspectors.

    Good luck with the re-hab!

    0Reply
  • Joseph Hammel
    Rental Property Investor · Lake Hallie, WI · Member since 2015 · 292 posts · 144 votes
    9y

    Some might say what ever you can get away with. But if you want to save money and be legit you might find a contractor that will let you or your skilled buddys do some work and do the final approval on it. Ive found it easyer to do this once youve developed the working relationship. As far as adding units that will be a big job and you may want to try saving money by being your own General Contractor. That is if the city will allow that.

    0Reply
  • Tim SwierczekPro Member
    Lender · White Bear Township, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I think they pretty much covered this already.  Congratulations @Eli Sunderland

    0Reply
  • Keith Fjelsted
    Contractor · Rosemount, MN · Member since 2016 · 54 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    Hi Ely,

    Congrats on the duplex! As a General contractor, I'd say make sure you pull all permits the city requires. I've included the link that shows what you need a permit for here: http://www.minneapolismn.gov/mdr/permits/mdr_permits_nopermitneeded

     If you have any questions on any of the repairs, feel free to reach out. Advice is always free.

    1Reply
  • Dan Bryskin
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 252 posts · 263 votes
    9y

    @Eli Sunderland

    On the occupied unit, you can do everything yourself, including electrical and plumbing. I strongly recommend pulling the permits. If my memory serves me right, they won't let you run new gas lines,  and may be not hvac. But everything else you can do. On the other unit - may be the same, may be less. You will find out once you go to pull permits. Now, inspectors will be looking at you with the microscope. Goes for all new guys ... Make sure you know what you doing, make sure you pass required rough in inspections. Make sure inspector is your friend, and you will be ok. Else - it may cost you more then hiring professional. Congrats and good luck. 

    0Reply
  • Jared LaLonde
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2012 · 30 posts · 10 votes
    9y

    I agree, as a contractor, pull your permits.  Minneapolis inspectors are good at finding people working without permits.    Last year I was 1 or 2 days into demo, had a dumpster in the driveway, and had not pulled permits yet- the inspector stopped and knocked on the door, was nice about it but gave me only the rest of the day to pull the permits without fines.  For the most part the inspectors are good to work with and will answer questions and help you out as long as your not trying to hide from them. Also when you go to sell not having permits for obvious newer work can sometimes cause problems.

    I have a 2 bed 1.5 bath condo, about 850 SF in Whittier(25th & Blaisdell).  I remodeled it when I bought it about 10 yrs ago.  I'm currently getting $1375 for rent. 

    Good luck with your first rental!  

    0Reply
  • David S.
    Investor · Fridley, MN · Member since 2015 · 108 posts · 25 votes
    9y

    @Jared LaLonde and @Joseph Lee

    Do you have any experience with the city actually inspecting work years later? I just closed on a property with a new boiler system. It's only a few years old, and no permit is shown in the property records. I don't want to have to hire a licensed plumber to look at it and sign off. 

    0Reply
  • Eli Sunderland
    OP
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    Alright, another question for you guys- 

    I am finishing the attic and adding 2 beds to the top unit as a result for this minneapolis duplex.  The ceilings in the attic are sloping, since a lot of it is A Framed, will it be an issue in rental inspection if the ceilings aren't 7 feet high throughout the entire bedroom?  Also, the staircase is kind of narrow and steep up to the attic, will that be an issue that could keep me from getting a rental license for the place?  Really don't wanna do the work, then find out I can't even rent out the top unit as a 4 bedroom.

    Thanks everyone!  

    2Reply
  • Jordan MoorheadBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    Eli Sunderland make sure it's zoned to have another unit! I can't tell you how many duplexes Grigoriy Gorshteyn and I have been in that look like they started adding a third unit and then stopped, probably because it wasn't zoned for it.
    [email protected]512-888-9122
    The Moorhead Team5140 Reviews
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  • Jordan MoorheadBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    Eli Sunderland didn't see you were just trying to add bedrooms. I would see if you can have an inspector come by before you start construction. They'll want to be by anyway
    [email protected]512-888-9122
    The Moorhead Team5140 Reviews
    WebsiteView Page
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  • Bruce Runn
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 743 posts · 927 votes
    9y

    @Jordan Moorhead

    Adding bedroom has nothing to do with zoning.  He's adding 2 more bedrooms to the 2nd unit.  I've added bedrooms in numerous places I own.  It's how you jump start the cash flow to make it really work for you.

    2Reply
  • Eli Sunderland
    OP
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    @Bruce Runn, have you ever added an attic to the top unit in a duplex? The attic really doesn't need any significant work, I can tell people have lived in it before - It's got bedrooms walled in already, there are radiators up there, windows, etc.  Anyway,  I'm sure I'll have to pull a permit and have an inspector check it out, since I'm adding to the finished square footage of the top unit, right?  

    0Reply
  • Jared LaLonde
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2012 · 30 posts · 10 votes
    9y

    @David S. 

    I own a SF in S mpls that had an egress window installed in the basement by a previous owner.  When the rental inspector went through she apparently looked up to see if there was a permit, found there wasn't one and made me pull a new permit for completed work that I didn't do..  I have a contractors license, so I could pull the permit, have it inspected and get it cleared up without to much trouble. 

    On a different property in the suburbs which I lived in, I had permits that I had not closed in the time frame allowed.  The city would not inspect and close them, or let me pull new permits.  When I went to sell the buyers inspector noticed, so it came up.  The sale did go through, but I ended up hiring a plumber and electrician that the buyer chose to do additional inspections.  

    If you are hiring someone to do work that requires permits- make sure all permits are closed out before paying the final invoice, maybe have it written out in the contract also.

    1Reply
  • David S.
    Investor · Fridley, MN · Member since 2015 · 108 posts · 25 votes
    9y

    @Jared LaLonde Thank you very much for your reply. It really helps. 

    0Reply
  • Nick Brogren
    Rental Property Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 17 votes
    9y

    Lots of great responses here, but I'll add my 2 cents as well since I did this nearly 10 years ago in NE MPLS. At that time I needed permits for electric, plumbing, and HVAC - we didn't really do any structural work (until we opened it up, added some support, and the inspector said 'looks good!'). 

    Also, and I know you didn't ask this, but do yourself a favor and weigh the opportunity cost (lost rents) of doing it yourself. If you have experience doing these renovations then maybe you need not heed this, but if this is your first time doing renovations this could quickly become a multi-year project and turn your duplex into an alligator property (eating up all of your time and money). I had a 9-5 job at the time and despite being motivated it was TOUGH to come home and put on the tool belt for a few more hours. 

    Suffice to say that I ran some numbers when I was done and I would have saved myself a LOT of time and effort ($ about even) if I would have just hired out the work and gotten renters in there ASAP. 

    Anyway, that's enough unsolicited advice for now. 

    1Reply
  • Andrew Tortora
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    @Eli Sunderland my buddy just rented out a 1B 1BA in Uptown for $1300 with everything included he said it went fast.  I wouldn't go under 1,000 for almost anything in S. Minneapolis close to the lakes.  we just bought our first triplex near Lake Nokomis, and are going to start at $1200.

    0Reply
  • Eric Beise
    Real Estate Agent · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    @Eli Sunderland When I am thinking about rents, I always go to rentometer.com and plug in the zip code of the place I am trying to rent out. It's a good gut check if you know the area well, but especially helpful if you don't live in the area and want a good gauge. I have found that if I stay at or below that average, there is always plenty of interest from quality tenants. 

    0Reply
  • John Woodrich
    Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Because this is your first renovation I would call the building official out before you begin the project.  They will let you know whether your upstairs bedrooms will work, will point out issues you may have to deal with, and set you on the right foot from the beginning.  

    You will likely have to pull plumbing, electrical, and a general building permit for the work performed.  I am not sure how it differs for multi family or if Minneapolis has their own rules but the homeowner can pull plumbing and electrical permits if you are living there.  I think you can even do plumbing repairs if you intend to live there.  This is one area that the building official may NOT give it to you straight, I have argued on these issues in the past along with what constitutes a repair and what requires a permit.  For example, you can replace a broken or defective outlet without a permit however if the current outlet is fine but has too much paint on it you need to pull a permit...

    Good luck with the project.

    0Reply
  • Eli Sunderland
    OP
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    @John Woodrich

    Do you think I would be able to get this official out to the property before I close?  The ability for me to turn this top unit from a 2 bed to a 4 bed is pretty vital to the value of the investment, so I'd like to know it's possible before I close, rather than close, bring out the rental inspector, then find it isn't doable, and have a property that doesn't cash flow nearly as much as hoped.  

    Thanks!

    0Reply
  • John Woodrich
    Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Eli Sunderland The only reason you couldn't bring him out before hand is if you are out of contingencies and can't back out of the purchase.  Otherwise you can definitely have the building official stop by.  He may also tip you off to other issues you may run into.

    Talk to a building official and tell them you want to meet on site to go over some plans.  Have your list of what you want done as if you are ready to pull the permits.  Walk the property with him and see if your stairs or other limitations will stop from making legal bedroom units.  This will build some rapport with you and the inspector and also let him know you want to do everything the right way.  That will make the project 100% easier compared to a official who doesn't trust you.

    0Reply
  • Eli Sunderland
    OP
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    @John Woodrich, sounds like some good advice!  Thanks

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Excelsior, MN · Member since 2017 · 85 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    @Eli Sunderland There is one huge obstacle that I see in this scenario.  60% of that attic has to be above 6'10", you might as well call it 7' for safe measures.  If it is not, there is absolutely no way that you will be allowed to use that as any sort of "living space".  An inspector will tell you that you have to seal that area off and not allow tenants up there.  I had the same idea in a property in NE.  I was an attic I was going to build a stair case up to it and add 2 bedrooms.  I was forced to seal that attic until I put a gable on the roof to bump that % up.

    0Reply
  • Eli Sunderland
    OP
    Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed, good to know!  I haven't measured it out precisely yet, but I think it might fit that threshold, we'll see I guess!  

    0Reply
  • John Woodrich
    Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    As Ryan mentioned, a gable or dormir can fix the height issue.  They typically aren't too expensive when dealing with an unfinished area but it may also be the reason you decide to re-roof the house.  Some inspectors require dormirs to be supported all the way to the basement which may also not be feasible on an older structure.  All the reason to meet with the city first!!

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