This house barely cash flows. I worry about it being near the peak especially in LV due to the looming recession. With 85k involved in closing, it isn't an ideal time to buy if the market turns against me and I can buy a house with more cash flow in the greater Seattle area even now, where we aren't a service economy like LV.
Buy or wait?
Hello @Jack B.
We just conducted our Q1 Las Vegas Investor Update and below are our findings.
Note that the following data comes from the Las Vegas MLS and is only for properties that conform to our target tenant pool.
Median $/SqFt for Single Family Homes - The $/SqFt continues to rise. We expect the rate to increase towards the end of the year, likely driven by Californians looking for a more cost effective place to live. Already 30% of all sales today are to Californians. Also, we are still 20% below the peak prices of 2006. If you take inflation into account we are about 35% below peak 2006 prices.

Months of Supply - The months supply of properties has risen since late 2018, but still below 3 months where 6 months is considered a balanced market. The effect of the increased supply is that we are seeing increasing ROI and facing less competition from buyers.

Median Days on Market - The median days on market has risen from 12 to about 14 days. Not a significant change. There is still high demand for the type, configuration and price range we target.

Available Conforming Rental Units by Month - There has been steady decline in available rental units over time. This is what is driving up rents (6.6% average increase in 2018) in the property profile we target.

In summary, the real estate market is very strong. Demand for rental properties is outpacing supply resulting in rising rents. We expect demand to increase during the rest of 2019.
Resident Population Growth - 2017 to 2018
Nevada ranks #1 in the US for population growth.
Source: U.S. Census Bureau
Driver's License Surrenders to Nevada by State for 2018
This shows which states people are moving from.
Source: UNLV CBER
Fastest Job Growth in the Nation
Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (December 2018 vs. December 2017)
Fastest Personal Income Growth
This shows that the jobs being created are not low end jobs. They pay well and the wages are increasing with the current jobs.
Source: U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (Q2 2018 vs. Q3 2018)
Fastest House Price Appreciation
Source: Federal Housing Finance Agency (Q3 2017 vs. Q3 2018)
New Home Median Price - Median new home price is $410,000 which is well above the sweet spot for renters. The price of new homes is largely driven by the high cost of land, which is in short supply. Resales will still be the pool for investment properties and will not be diluted by new homes.
Major projects are big drivers of the future economy for Las Vegas. In the 2000 to 2010 era, there was a push to add hotel rooms. The problem was that it was effectively a zero sum game since there were no new attractions added to draw more visitors. This has completely changed in the last few years in that new attractions are being added instead of simply hotel rooms. The nature of Las Vegas has changed too. Until only a few years ago Las Vegas was just "Sin City", a great vacation destination. Today it has changed into a great place to live with endless entertainment, affordable housing and low cost of living. Below are some of the major projects currently under construction (not just planning):
There are many other projects underway but the above are the largest we know of. Any one of the above projects would be huge for a 2.2M population city. These projects will create a large number of additional well paying jobs which will attract even more people to Las Vegas.
Not many people realize that Las Vegas is an island surrounded by federal land. Approximately 84% of all land in Nevada and 87% of Clark County (in which Las Vegas is located) is owned by the federal government. See the map below for what has happened between 1984 and 2016. Note that 2017 and 2018 were huge growth years for Las Vegas so even less land is available now.

Since there is limited room for expansion, Las Vegas will not have urban sprawl, the only growth path is redevelopment. This is a huge advantage for investors. In most cities, urban sprawl leaves formerly desirable areas "behind" and they tend to decline with increased crime and falling rents and prices. Not the case for Las Vegas:
The current market is strong and we expect it to get stronger as 2019 progresses. A significant number of Californians are already moving to Las Vegas and the 2018 Tax Act will drive more people to look for a more affordable place to live. The lack of room for expansion almost guarantees prices will continue to rise as more and more people bid for the limited number of available properties. Las Vegas remains an outstanding investment location for the foreseeable future.
Las Vegas housing market have moved from the Rapid appreciation stage to the stabilizing stage, plus today’s very low interest rate, would be good news for the buyers to have a chance to jump in and fulfill their ownership dream with the historical low interest rate.
Today is also a great time for the Seller because Seller can still get multiple offers if they price the property right at market price, not over price.
Vegas is going to look like a scene from the Walking Dead soon. My SFR rents for $4200 in leafy Summerlin. I'm hoping for $2500 when the current tenant leaves in June. The casinos will be closed until June. Even when they open it will be a slow return with a tiered opening. It took 2.5 years for airline traffic to comeback after 9/11. Hopefully it is the same. AirBnb? Forget it. Nice hotels will be offering $25 rooms. Big conventions? Gone til the vaccine is here.
Coronavirus Impact Update 4-8-2020
While I read dire predictions, the property profile we target for investors is doing OK. Things are always changing but so far, our clients’ properties are performing well. Below is a brief summary of the current situation and below that you will find statistics on what is happening in the market.
Current Situation
As of today, out of the current 160 or so properties our clients own, we have six tenants reporting problems paying April rent. One tenant, who lost their job, requested early termination of lease; all others have agreed to pay partial rent for April and defer the balance until no later than June 1st.
Rent deferral will likely rise depending on how long COVID-19 impacts business. However, our target tenant pool is credit based and they “fear” bad credit. So, while there may be a delayed payment, we believe the vast majority will pay because they know even a late payment will harm their credit for years. Note that even during the 2008 crash, our owners had zero decrease in rent and zero vacancies. So, we expect that while there may be some delays getting paid, the vast majority will pay the rent in full.
Market Statistics
The data below covers the preceding 13 months for properties that conform to our basic search criteria, which is summarized below:
The charts below are based on data from the Greater Las Vegas Association of REALTORS (GLVAR) MLS.
Rentals - Inventory Levels
Note that inventory levels continued the decline that started in January.
Rentals - Median $/SF
Rent rates rose in March and posed a significant increase year-over-year.
Rentals - List to Contract Days
List to contract days has declined since January.
Rentals - Closings by Month
We are still seeing a lot of rental activities, even into April. What about sales?
Sales - Inventory Levels
Inventory started falling in August 2019 but rose slightly in March.
Sales - Median $/SF
Prices started rising from November 2019 and continue to do so.
Sales - List to Contract Days
List to contract days continued to decline since December. There is a lot of unmet demand for Las Vegas properties which match our property profile.
Sales - Closings by Month
The number of closed sales remained stable throughout March. We were expecting fewer closed sales in March but were surprised.
Summary
Any major market discontinuity is an opportunity to make money. Now is one of these times.
We are not seeing any general price declines, let alone a crash. What we are seeing are some individual attractively priced properties coming on the market resulting in excellent returns. But these are scarce. Unless something drastically changes, Las Vegas properties may ride out the storm.
References
My last 2 late tenants paid today (12 of 13 total) so I lost 1 renter that was a tenant for 6 years. (Their small business got crushed and income disappeared) One tenant renewed at plus $100/mo for 2 more years April 1st. Most of my renters will get a bigger stimulus check than their rent in the next week or two.
@Jack B. I would be "worried about peak" in Las Vegas too. At +18% valuation as of Q1 2020, it is the second most overvalued city in the U.S. out of top 100 cities by population (after Boise, Idaho at +33%). I compute valuations based on deviation from historical price/income. Feel free to PM for more info.
Good news again is this thread was from 6 months ago when they were wrong again about vegas. Prices are up, rent is up, vacancy and inventory are down. It’s like they are wrong more often than they are right. Seems like throwing darts would be better than listening to these experts. Maybe they forgot most of them are “reporters”, people who “report” what happened. Not psychics. It is right there in the job title though.
Las Vegas Aug'20 SFR median price came in at $335k. An increase of $5k from previous month, and year over year Aug'19, increase of 9.8%.
Overall, SFR still going up, inventory going down, and still extreme seller's market.
@Bill B. A market being 'overvalued' via a relative metric (such as price-income ratios etc), has little to do with 'predicting the future'/being a psychic etc. It is a technical indicator available at present, that one can freely speak to without being bound to specific timing.
Valuations only matter at peak of cycle, and yes prices typically continue to rally until then.
So we agree that their article saying the properties were overvalued was meaningless. (You’re saying they weren’t a prediction of future values and they aren’t wrong even though prices went up. So we have to assume they wouldn’t have said “look I was right” if prices had dropped. Though for some reason I think they would have.)
You’ll see my original complaint came from using their own metric to show areas like San Francisco, San Jose, Portland and New York were 2-4x more “over valued” and yet they had failed to mention these cities for some strange reason.
You’ll also notice people like guy Bouchard saying he was expecting a 40% rent rate cut in June on his summerlin property. Now we don’t know if he truly owns that property and just didn’t have a clue or was just making up an example. I personally have raised my rents 10-20% since his posts.
Maybe he’ll chime in and say he was very wrong and actually raised rents, but I doubt it. 90% of my complaints are the people predicting doom and gloom and then not mentioning it when they’re beyond wrong. Do you think you can find 10 posts on BP where someone admits their predictions if followed would have cost people 10’s to hundreds of thousands of dollars? I know I can find 100 posts from people saying sell everything now!!!!!! In March.
Again, you’ll notice this thread suddenly died 6 months ago after 3 pages of posts as soon as it proved false.
it will probably be revived in 6 months or 6 years when there is a price drop, no matter how small or if the prices are still higher than they were in March saying they were right all along.
@Stefan Tsvetkov You use the terms price and valuation synonymously. They are two different things.
@Phillip Dwyer Please read my above comments more carefully. 'Valuation' = deviation from historical price/income ratios, and not used synonymously with prices. Can see my lecture at 38:00 forward at the below link if curious to know more:
US Real Estate Valuations and Outlook Post 2020 Recession, lecture by Stefan Tsvetkov
@Stefan Tsvetkov thanks for the link. I watched a large portion of the lecture. So are you using median house hold income versus median sale price of SFR as the comparison? Overall, I thought it was really interesting.
The price to income ratios should be at all time highs if interest rates are at all time lows correct? I mean I’m sure we all agree if interest rates magically became 12% tomorrow house prices would drop 30-50%. So there has to be an adjustment in the price to income ratio.
Heck, you should probably replace price to income with payment to income if you want anything approaching accuracy. If the price to income ratio in Texas, California, and Nevada were the same, the Nevada house payment would be far and away the cheapest because of property taxes and insurance differences. Thus the house price to income should be higher.
Plus you might have to use a post tax income to payment as residents of 44 of our United States have to pay 4-13% of their income to the state before making the house payment. If these 6 states suddenly imposed a state income tax I bet their housing values would fall as well. So again, they should be among the 6 highest price to income markets or they are further undervalued.
Ps. These are all just suggestions to make more accurate comparisons as much of the math appears to be over my head. But not counting all required expenses can’t result in anything accurate.
As always, lots of great opinions and predictions on this thread. However, I always question the reliability of any prediction. I believe Peter Drucker said it very well:
"Trying to predict the future is like trying to drive down a country road at night with no lights while looking out the back window."
Or, my own opinion:
"Predicting anything beyond yesterday is guessing"
So I will leave the predictions to others and instead I will present the current condition of the Las Vegas market.
Below are charts from our latest trailing 13 month market report, which includes August data. Remember that this data is only for the property profile that we target, not for the entire metro area and all property types. Our property profile was selected to have the highest probability of attracting our target tenant pool. In general, the property profile is as follows:
There is a lot more detail but the above will give you a general idea of the properties we target. What this also means is that we do not include in our data: apartments, condos, multi-family, single family homes priced above or below our target price range or configurations that do not conform to our property profile.
So, with all that said, here is the data for the prior 13 months ending 8/31/2020.
Rental rates posted another significant increase in August, now at the highest level for the last 13 months. Both property managers that we work with are reporting extremely low inventory and multiple applications for most properties.
There was a significant month-to-month increase in rental rates, which reflects low inventory and increasing demand.
The time from list to contract is below 10 days, an amazingly short period of time. There are usually multiple applicants for each property. In some cases, renters are offering to pay more than the asking rent or pay one year's rent upfront just to secure a place to live.
This chart shows the average daily number of properties that were for rent by month. As you can see, rental inventory continues to fall. We are at less than half of the level a year ago, a dramatic decrease.
Year-to-year prices increased by about 4%.
Median days on market remains amazingly low for the property profile we target. Properly priced properties go under contract in in 1-3 days and usually with multiple offers.
This chart shows the average daily number of properties that were for sale by month. Inventory continues to fall and is significantly lower than the same time last year.
Months of supply are just barely over one month! Six months is considered balanced.
Based on the above market statistics, what conclusions would you draw about this market? Do you see any indication of a crash or do you see a consistent trend of rising prices and rents?
There are "news" articles about the coming "eviction wave". As usual, the "experts" got it wrong. Their first mistake is that they grouped all tenants together into one basket and made their "prediction". (I've looked for their source data and cannot find it. If someone can point me to the data, please let me know.) I can tell you as an engineer that their approach is invalid. You cannot combine disparate tenant pools into a single group and produce any meaningful information. They also made another error.
When the eviction restrictions end, it is possible that a number of people in C and B Class properties may be evicted. However, what the "experts" seemed to forget is that all these people will still need a place to live. And, all the owners of the C and B Class properties will need tenants. What I believe will happen is closer to musical chairs than a huge wave of vacancies. Evicted tenants will move to the next C or B Class property down the street. And, the people who were evicted from that unit will move to another recently vacated C or B property. So, in the short term, I see the potential for a lot of people shuffling around but not a lot of vacancies.
About the tenant pool we target; to date out of the 160+ client properties we track (out of a total of > 200 properties), 10 tenants have at some point over the last 6 months had trouble paying the full rent on schedule. A relatively small percentage of the total in my opinion. I expect most of these tenants will catch up on their rent in the near future. For example, one of the 10 tenants just paid close to $9,000 to bring their rent current. Paying $9,000 to catch up on the rent is a lot more expensive than moving. However, moving is not the issue, a bad credit report is this tenant pool's fear. A negative hit on their credit will dog them for years. Plus, even if they wanted to move, it is unlikely any property manager with an A Class property will rent to them. There are too many qualified applicants for the property manager to consider anyone who was evicted or skipped out on their lease. So, we do not expect many of the remaining 9 tenants to be evicted. To put this in perspective, out of a population of over 200 properties, we've had a total of 5 evictions in the last 12 years.
I believe that increasing demand combined with a shortage of inventory will continue to drive the market in a positive direction for the foreseeable future.
As always, lots of great opinions and predictions on this thread. However, I always question the reliability of any prediction. I believe Peter Drucker said it very well:
"Trying to predict the future is like trying to drive down a country road at night with no lights while looking out the back window."
Or, my own opinion:
"Predicting anything beyond yesterday is guessing"
So I will leave the predictions to others and instead I will present the current condition of the Las Vegas market.
Below are charts from our latest trailing 13 month market report, which includes August data. Remember that this data is only for the property profile that we target, not for the entire metro area and all property types. Our property profile was selected to have the highest probability of attracting our target tenant pool. In general, the property profile is as follows:
There is a lot more detail but the above will give you a general idea of the properties we target. What this also means is that we do not include in our data: apartments, condos, multi-family, single family homes priced above or below our target price range or configurations that do not conform to our property profile.
So, with all that said, here is the data for the prior 13 months ending 8/31/2020.
Rental rates posted another significant increase in August, now at the highest level for the last 13 months. Both property managers that we work with are reporting extremely low inventory and multiple applications for most properties.
There was a significant month-to-month increase in rental rates, which reflects low inventory and increasing demand.
The time from list to contract is below 10 days, an amazingly short period of time. There are usually multiple applicants for each property. In some cases, renters are offering to pay more than the asking rent or pay one year's rent upfront just to secure a place to live.
This chart shows the average daily number of properties that were for rent by month. As you can see, rental inventory continues to fall. We are at less than half of the level a year ago, a dramatic decrease.
Year-to-year prices increased by about 4%.
Median days on market remains amazingly low for the property profile we target. Properly priced properties go under contract in in 1-3 days and usually with multiple offers.
This chart shows the average daily number of properties that were for sale by month. Inventory continues to fall and is significantly lower than the same time last year.
Months of supply are just barely over one month! Six months is considered balanced.
Based on the above market statistics, what conclusions would you draw about this market? Do you see any indication of a crash or do you see a consistent trend of rising prices and rents?
There are "news" articles about the coming "eviction wave". As usual, the "experts" got it wrong. Their first mistake is that they grouped all tenants together into one basket and made their "prediction". (I've looked for their source data and cannot find it. If someone can point me to the data, please let me know.) I can tell you as an engineer that their approach is invalid. You cannot combine disparate tenant pools into a single group and produce any meaningful information. They also made another error.
When the eviction restrictions end, it is possible that a number of people in C and B Class properties may be evicted. However, what the "experts" seemed to forget is that all these people will still need a place to live. And, all the owners of the C and B Class properties will need tenants. What I believe will happen is closer to musical chairs than a huge wave of vacancies. Evicted tenants will move to the next C or B Class property down the street. And, the people who were evicted from that unit will move to another recently vacated C or B property. So, in the short term, I see the potential for a lot of people shuffling around but not a lot of vacancies.
About the tenant pool we target; to date out of the 160+ client properties we track (out of a total of > 200 properties), 10 tenants have at some point over the last 6 months had trouble paying the full rent on schedule. A relatively small percentage of the total in my opinion. I expect most of these tenants will catch up on their rent in the near future. For example, one of the 10 tenants just paid close to $9,000 to bring their rent current. Paying $9,000 to catch up on the rent is a lot more expensive than moving. However, moving is not the issue, a bad credit report is this tenant pool's fear. A negative hit on their credit will dog them for years. Plus, even if they wanted to move, it is unlikely any property manager with an A Class property will rent to them. There are too many qualified applicants for the property manager to consider anyone who was evicted or skipped out on their lease. So, we do not expect many of the remaining 9 tenants to be evicted. To put this in perspective, out of a population of over 200 properties, we've had a total of 5 evictions in the last 12 years.
I believe that increasing demand combined with a shortage of inventory will continue to drive the market in a positive direction for the foreseeable future.
Hi @Eric Fernwood,
Could you give this thread an update, please?
Matt: the interesting part is if you go back to the the stat of this thread, OP and the naysayers saying we were at a peak 2 years ago..
2 years ago: $170/sf 2.5 months supply, 15 days on market
7 months ago: $195/sf (up 15% in 18 months) 0.5 month supply (down 80%) 3 days on market(down 80%)
Today:? I’m sure the same or tighter.
Just saying that those who think they can spot the top are often mistaken and making that mistake 2 years ago likely cost these people $50-$100k per property they didn’t buy, in 18 months. I hope they didn’t go to work instead, this woulda been much easier.
If there’s a MASSIVE 10% correction, which I doubt will happen, we’d be back to 2020 prices. Remember, our prices have only dropped more than 5% once in history. Today’s prices make cash flowing today harder or nearly impossible. But “every” expert is predicting inflation. Which brings price increases and rent increases. Eventually you grow in to cashflow.
And I’ll mention the unmentionables in case you’re comparing across markets. No income tax, VERY low property taxes, landlord friendly, basically zero maintenance landscaping and house exterior/roofs, no weather issues, etc etc...
Matt: the interesting part is if you go back to the the stat of this thread, OP and the naysayers saying we were at a peak 2 years ago..
2 years ago: $170/sf 2.5 months supply, 15 days on market
7 months ago: $195/sf (up 15% in 18 months) 0.5 month supply (down 80%) 3 days on market(down 80%)
Today:? I’m sure the same or tighter.
Just saying that those who think they can spot the top are often mistaken and making that mistake 2 years ago likely cost these people $50-$100k per property they didn’t buy, in 18 months. I hope they didn’t go to work instead, this woulda been much easier.
If there’s a MASSIVE 10% correction, which I doubt will happen, we’d be back to 2020 prices. Remember, our prices have only dropped more than 5% once in history. Today’s prices make cash flowing today harder or nearly impossible. But “every” expert is predicting inflation. Which brings price increases and rent increases. Eventually you grow in to cashflow.
And I’ll mention the unmentionables in case you’re comparing across markets. No income tax, VERY low property taxes, landlord friendly, basically zero maintenance landscaping and house exterior/roofs, no weather issues, etc etc...
Keep in mind you basically cant build a new home for less than 200 a foot all in these days.. so existing is rising up to new home values.
who was the local Vegas guy who was in the Casino scene that last year was predicting utter failure for the Vegas market have not seen him around lately.
Its pretty weird though.. how there has been a flight to hard asset or real estate asset..
Hindsight is 20/20. This post originated around Feb'19, with title " Found a property in LV but worried about peak".
LV SFR median Feb'19, $296.2k.
LV SFR median Feb'20, $316k. If bought SFR, then gain 20k or 6.7%.
LV SFR median Feb'21, $355k. If bought SFR, then gain additional $39k or 12.3%
In hindsight, not sure if anyone could have predicted a pandemic that resulted in low inventory and low interest rates that fueled the real estate market to new highs.
So, to answer the original question " found a property in LV but worried about peak", the answer is yes, should have bought.
Hello @Matt Huneycutt and @Bill B.,
Thanks for the tag.
Las Vegas is an island surrounded by federally owned land. There is little land for expansion, a growing job market, and an influx of people. Unless there is another "COVID Event", prices and rents will continue to increase at a rapid rate through 2021 and beyond. Unless California suddenly turns business and people-friendly, Las Vegas will have a long run of prosperity. Some specifics.
First, the statistics.
The information below only concerns the narrow property profile/tenant pool we target. No data for any other property type is included. The typical property we target has the following characteristics:

Below you will find the statistics we generate each month.
Rentals - Median $/SF by Month
Median rental rates reached $1/SF in March, representing a 8.7% increase YoY. A phenomenal growth for rental rates.

Rentals - List to Contract Days by Month
There is very little rental inventory and what is available goes under contract in days.

Rentals - Availability by Month
This chart shows the average daily number of properties that were for rent in a particular month. As you can see, we are at about 40% of the level a year ago.

Rentals - Months of Supply
2 to 3 months is typical. Today we are at just 0.5 month of supply!

Median $/SF by Month
Prices have risen rapidly since February 2021 and March 2021 saw an amazing increase of 15.4% YoY!

Sales - List to Contract Days by Month
Accompanying the rapid price increase is the unprecedented low days on the market. Properties that we target are typically going under contract in 1-2 days.

Sales - Availability by Month
We are at less than 1/3 of the level a year ago just before the COVID hit.

Sales - Months of Supply
Six months supply is considered a balanced market. In March there was approximately 1/3 of one month!

The hospitality industry is still expanding:


Las Vegas is and will continue to be a great place to invest for buy and hold investors.
Since the market is super hot and have a trend of going Up, and Up and Up, to maximize the Seller's profit, should the Sellers hold their property very tight, and do NOT sell any property now, wait for a few more years, for the much bigger selling profit return?
My last post, was LV median SFR Feb'21 at 355k. As of Jun'21 median SFR at 395k. Inventory up slightly to maybe 1.5 months, but still short of 6 months for normal buyer and seller balance. Nothing significant in forbearance that will produce large increase in inventory.
I think the trend of increasing SFR median price will continue to increase till end of 2021. The Fed said will not increase interest rates until 2022. There is inflation and pressure to increase rate to fight inflation. Fed says it is " transitory" or temporary due to supply chain constraints. But it seems more permanent and across the board. How can you print $10 trillion and not have inflation?
I expect real estate prices to keep increasing until Feds increase interest rates. About 1% rate increase equals 10% reduction in price.