It's 2018... someone tell my why these are still thing

James E. · 2018-03-04T05:32:25-08:00

Can someone please explain to me how, in 2018, we haven't come up with a better process for:1. The real estate title systemBetween title searches and title insurance - the real estate title system is a $15 BILLION complete scam. How can we still not say who actually owns a property? When I buy or sell a car, there's a title transfer document and a bill of sale. End of story - no lawyers or title companies involved. I'm not saying buying real estate should be as simple as buying toothpaste, and I get the idea of title clouds, but there HAS to be a better system than the one we have in place. Is anyone getting close to improving this? For all of the hype around blockchain helping to fix this system, I haven't actually seen a functional project launched yet. Are places like Ubitquity making an impact?2. NotariesHow are we still saying that "yea this document is super legit because this person who paid a $60 fee has a fancy stamp?" Shockingly, this is not the most secure system, and there are still cases of rampant fraud (like this one from a few years ago, or this one). The notary system is so antiqued it's preposterous. I'll double down and say that the concept of a physical signature is just as ridiculous. 3. The rest of my rant can be bucketed into just general technology enhancements, especially in the commercial lending industry. In my previous life, I was a consultant with a big accounting firm, and our projects were mostly around bringing these lenders from the stone age to at least 2010 with their tech. And that's not even the consumer facing stuff, it was the back end, loan accounting and reporting systems that were so mickey mouse it was terrifying. Bigger banks have the pockets to justify new system implementations, but many smaller banks and credit unions are running on decades old technology. My latest commercial loan was through a bank that can't even link an auto pay to my loan! Boston Sewer and Water doesn't accept auto pay either - when I asked, they said they are "working on implementing later this spring." I physically write checks every month. In 2018. So, that was a lot of whining without offering much in terms of solutions... sorry about that. Consumers are expecting more and more in terms of technology offerings from their lenders, brokers, property managers, the courts and other partners, and the real estate industry is letting us all down. These inefficiencies are costing us time, money, and creating massive barriers to entry for new investors and home owners. I fully realize there are some progressive companies out there, and CRE tech is starting to gain steam, but we are still 100 years behind other industries and it's up to us to drive institutional change and improvement. Do you have anything to add to this list or anything I'm missing in my assessment?

Tom GimerBusiness Member

DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Fred Heller:

The thing that bugs me about title insurance is that you usually have to get a new policy if you refinance. It seems to me that the same title insurance policy should cover you as long as you own the home, regardless of whether or not you refinance down the road.

The owners title insurance policy you (presumably) bought when you purchased your property will protect you for as long as you own it.

On a refi you are talking about lenders title insurance, not owners. When a new loan is made, the lender needs to be sure of it's lien position. Much can occur in between your acquisition and a refi. Title needs to be examined again before a lender can be promised it will be in X lien position.

It depends where your property is but generally speaking you should pay a lot less for a refi policy vs. a new loan policy.

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Fred Heller

Real Estate Agent/Property Management · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 827 votes

8y

@Tom Gimer That makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying.

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Pra Che

Investor · West Coast · Member since 2013 · 43 posts · 11 votes

8y

Seems like RE industry is ripe for some major disruption using tech and automation. With technological advances like block chain, IoT...a good amount of flows can be impacted big time in next 5-10 years. I would be surprised if I use any manual steps in 10 years.

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James E.

OP

Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Jim Meloche:

For example - the agent compensation model hasn't changed much in 30 years (and neither have the real estate commissions, for the most part. it was 6% around here 30 years ago, and it's still 6% today.) what HAS changed is the ease with which most agents can now do their jobs. 30 years ago, agents needed to research specific homes for their clients, know the school systems inside and out, help clients understand their financing options, and be neighborhood experts. today, buyers and sellers use the internet do those things.

The agent's job and value add to a transaction has definitely changed over the years and you're right, while commissions may be a little lower (I'm seeing mostly 4-5% around Boston), it's basically the same. If there are any long time / full time agents out there, how do you see your role now vs. 10,15,20 years ago?

and the title companies. think about what they do. here in michigan, title companies primarily coordinate closings, and provide title insurance, both of which could be automated FAR, FAR more than they are, reducing time frames and cost. but again, buyers and sellers are used to these charges. and title companies are happy to receive them. no one really questions it.

ccase in point: last year we bought a brrrr deal - single-family residence. we paid the title company for a title insurance policy at closing. so far so good: for $600 i get the peace of mind that i'm the only one who owns the place (the title hadn't changed hands in 50 years - it seemed like a good idea to me.) we did the rehab on the house, put a tenant in it, then went to refinance. and guess what? the title company wanted $600 to issue a title policy again. say what?! clear title was established 90 days before, when we bought the place, and i had been the only owner since. how much effort would this "title work" require on the part of the title co? ZERO. wow, how stupid are we willing to let ourselves become?

Yup

We pay appraisal fees and recording fees in the same blind fashion. we accept the whole 30-45 day closing time frame idea. why? to make our deals go through, and to get on to the next one. pay the fees, accept the long time frames, close the deals, and find the next.

Yup - again, investors bake it into our numbers and it's just part of the deal. But if you think from an institutional perspective and how much inefficiency there is in the system, it's mind boggling.

"i have a feeling that the technological lag is not driven primarily by regulatory burden, rather, it's a matter of a very old industry desperately clinging to the last bits of what was once a very lucrative model. logically, the folks in this business that have historically made tons of money doing it are not interested in change."

Completely on board with your point here, but I do think it's a combo of both. Ironically, regulatory changes like Dodd Frank actually forced a lot of banks to upgrade their commercial lending servicing and accounting systems to meet new reporting requirements, I just don't think much has trickled over to the consumer facing systems.

"For example - the agent compensation model hasn't changed much in 30 years (and neither have the real estate commissions, for the most part. it was 6% around here 30 years ago, and it's still 6% today.) what HAS changed is the ease with which most agents can now do their jobs. 30 years ago, agents needed to research specific homes for their clients, know the school systems inside and out, help clients understand their financing options, and be neighborhood experts. today, buyers and sellers use the internet do those things. "

The agent's job and value add to a transaction has definitely changed over the years and you're right, while commissions may be a little lower (I'm seeing mostly 4-5% around Boston), it's basically the same. If there are any long time / full time agents out there, how do you see your role now vs. 10,15,20 years ago?

"which brings me to your question, @James E. what should we be doing to help? we should be thinking about our deals, of course. but we should also be more interested in the logic of the system we're working in. what fees are we paying, and why? we should value what efficiency would do for our TIME and our BANK ACCOUNTS. if enough of us balk at ridiculous fees and even more ridiculous time frames, how long can the status quo stand?"

It's a movement. @Tom Gimer do we have a #hashtag yet?

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James E.

OP

Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes

8y

@Blake B. what's it called? Do you have a beta you can share?

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James E.

OP

Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes

8y

@Joe Splitrock how do you mean? Are you saying Uber and Lyft didn't change the taxi industry? The most controversial regulation they circumvented was the taxi medallion system, which was an artificial limit on the number of taxis available in any given city (at least how it works in Boston). Before Uber, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a cab at night before Uber, and if you lived far away they usually wouldn't even let you in. If I had an early morning flight, would have to call the night before to schedule a ride and pray they actually showed up. Uber, Lyft etc. give drivers the chance to earn extra income with their existing car rather than pay a fee back to the cab company, and gives consumer a wider spectrum of choice along the price / convenience continuum.

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James E.

OP

Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes

8y

@John Nachtigall

"I would propose there are a few reasons the technology changes slowly (more on that later)

1. The stakes, in this case the ownership of trillions in real estate, had to have a very stable system that everyone trusts. In fact, the real estate industry did try and update to a national system with MERS. It was a complete and total disaster. The ownership properties was in doubt both before and after foreclosure. Leading to things like..

and

This is not Apple Maps, where you can put out a beta version and get better over time. The existing system may be old, but it works and it stable. Compare to a place like Haiti where land ownership is in doubt and no development can take place because it is impossible to get assurance you own anything."

Fair point... but MERS did simplify the mortgage assignment and ownership process, especially in the age of MBS. I actually worked on a project reviewing thousands of foreclosures for Citi and tracing ownership. Again... we are still using STAMPS to endorse notes / assign mortgages? MERS was certainly bumpy... but think of the institutional cost of assigning security interest every time a mortgage is bought / sold / packaged and paying the recording fees as they change states.

2. Diversity and profit motive. It is NOT a national system. So anyone with a better system has to sell it to the 3007 counties in the US. Who all have a system already and will lose money adopting the change. How do you make any money developing and selling a "better system"

Exactly - there's no incentive for the people / organization in power to drive any sort of efficiency / change. This is where I feel our industry reps and regulators are letting us down.

"3. In fact the pace of change is not slow at all. We have recognition of electronic signatures and electronic records which 20-30 years ago was a fantasy. It is in fact just slower change than other areas. Again, this is because of the reasons cited above.

I so I would cut those small banks some slack. Better to have an old system that works than

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_RBS_Group_compu..."

Ok but e-signatures, which are still limited with where you can use them (at least in mass have still never done a full e-closing), were adopted by the real estate industry what, 5 years ago? The ESIGN act went into place in 2000 making e-signatures legally binding, so I don't think 20 years ago it was a "fantasy," the RE industry was again just slow to adopt.

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Blake B.

Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 75 posts · 37 votes

8y

@James E. No name, no beta yet. We're early in the development phase working primarily on due diligence. Are you in the tech space?

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James E.

OP

Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes

8y

@Blake B. ish. I have a couple of small websites and my day job is in financial planning technology. Got my masters in info systems and looking to do more.

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Clint E.

Investor · Saint Charles, MO · Member since 2016 · 118 posts · 91 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:

@Russell Brazil @Giora Sela says "Smarter people will hopefully figure this use case in the future."

Hope isn't working yet. Here's the latest: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bitcoin-heist-6...

Someone stole computers so blockchain won't work? Did you read the article? Also you seem worried that technology you don't understand won't do a better job than a human. Good luck with that.

Do you run everywhere, wash all your dishes, use a typewriter to post on BP?

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Tom GimerBusiness Member

DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Clint E.:

Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:

@Russell Brazil @Giora Sela says "Smarter people will hopefully figure this use case in the future."

Hope isn't working yet. Here's the latest: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bitcoin-heist-6...

Someone stole computers so blockchain won't work? Did you read the article? Also you seem worried that technology you don't understand won't do a better job than a human. Good luck with that.

Do you run everywhere, wash all your dishes, use a typewriter to post on BP?

I read the article.

This time they stole the mining computers... the next method of hacking this technology hasn't even entered your mind yet.

I believe they refer to what you just did as a leap of logic.

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Erik W.

Real Estate Investor · Springfield, MO · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

8y

Legacy systems exist for legacy people.

Banks can force people to do things the way they want, or you can't have an account with them. But not all businesses or entities operate this way.

Have you ever noticed that there's always an old lady in line at the grocery store who still wants to hand-write out a check, even though check printing machines have been available for almost 20 years?

For every "new shiny" system, there are still a small percentage of people used to doing things "the old way." So now you have Govt laws that are almost impossible to change because everyone is worried that someone will get left behind and will be cheated out of their rights, which makes voters unhappy, which means incumbent politicians lose offices....which AINT gonna happen (wink).

For one example: people still resist voter ID laws. Seriously....you watch the news and you'll see it. Someone can vote--one of the most major exercises of political power and greater even than our 1st Amendment rights--without a photo ID. Every time someone proposes voter ID, there's one party in particular (guess which one?) that screams someone will be disenfranchised. And because those 1-3% of the population cannot be forced into keeping up with the times, we continue to lumber along using systems that are 50 years out of date because a small handful of people whine about it.

So how much interest is there in developing a new system when you still have to maintain the old one just as effectively? Resources are limited. Only those businesses that can show a profit from having a new system will do it. Govt-run bureaucracies? Forget it. They're starved for staff and revenue. IRS is doing tax returns on software written in the 1960s-70s. Can't hardly find people who know how to edit the code.

Bottom line: Title searches are staying much the same for a looooong time. (sorry)

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Joe SplitrockPro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @James E.:

@Joe Splitrock how do you mean? Are you saying Uber and Lyft didn't change the taxi industry? The most controversial regulation they circumvented was the taxi medallion system, which was an artificial limit on the number of taxis available in any given city (at least how it works in Boston). Before Uber, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a cab at night before Uber, and if you lived far away they usually wouldn't even let you in. If I had an early morning flight, would have to call the night before to schedule a ride and pray they actually showed up. Uber, Lyft etc. give drivers the chance to earn extra income with their existing car rather than pay a fee back to the cab company, and gives consumer a wider spectrum of choice along the price / convenience continuum.

I love cheap fast Uber rides as much as the next guy, but it isn't sustainable. It comes at the expense of the driver and they play by different rules than taxi companies. Uber burns through drivers quickly due to low wages after expenses. Some studies show wages as low as $3 an hour and many actually lose money. This is because of car expenses - the driver owns the car and acts as a contractor. Cabs are commercial vehicles and many markets require commercial drivers licenses, Uber is personal vehicles with personal drivers licenses. Taxi drivers have insurance for driving taxi. Uber drivers just have personal insurance policies that cost a fraction. Many insurance companies would drop an Uber driver immediately upon finding out that is how they are using the vehicle. Uber is burning through money quickly subsidizing their business. They are paying to acquire drivers and paying to acquire customers. At some point they will need to make money, which means raising prices. Their strategy is to lock in customers and drive out taxi companies, then raise prices. Then instead of having thirty local taxi companies in each market, you will have two national companies, Uber and Lyft. Then phase 3 happens - move to self driving cars and fire all your drivers.

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Account Closed

Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes

8y

Some people confuse blockchain with bitcoins. Bitcoin is an implementation of blockchain technology. Blockchain is just a "shared ledger" with a bunch of mathematical features like proof a certain certificate signed a transaction. We could phase into a blockchain technology to index deed/transfer records, but for a while people would still have to verify all the old title stuff and sign off that everything was legit.

I bought a foreclosed house and found the old "title work" in the basement, from the 70s. Its fascinating, it covers from the creation of the state of Ohio down to the previous owner getting title. Its stuffed with all sorts of fascinating things, like racist old deed restrictions from the 20s, banks going bust, families dividing up big parcels of land (and what all the nearby roads are named after) .. Was very cool to see all that. Just a neat anecdote!

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Mike CumbieBusiness Member

REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

8y

Not to be "that guy" but I am going to say be careful what you wish for. When it gets so easy you don't need title guys/agents/lawyers/survey people/local mortgage reps etc. Everybody will be able to buy real estate easily. That means your neighbor, coworkers, sisters boyfriend, uncle Ned will all be going for that same deal you are shooting for. 30 times the people will be at the auctions, prices will be driven up and the same people asking why it is so difficult will be asking "How come there is so much competition I can't find a place to buy without competing with everyone in town".

As far as Uber goes I agree with @Joe Splitrock and his points. I would add everybody loved it when it was "ride sharing" and "new and innovative" now it is pretty much ripping the Taxi drivers that made a living wage out and replacing them with people who are getting less than minimum wage in many cases. All of the risk goes on the driver and the company is making record profits. The same crowd cheering Uber is bashing the fast food industry for not paying a living wage. It confuses me, I am all about competition in the market place but it is in no way "ride sharing" any longer. It is an unregulated company offering a "shiny dream" to drivers just like those "sell knives" or "sell $1000 vacuum cleaners" and live in a mansion.

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Joe SplitrockPro Member

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Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Some people confuse blockchain with bitcoins. Bitcoin is an implementation of blockchain technology. Blockchain is just a "shared ledger" with a bunch of mathematical features like proof a certain certificate signed a transaction. We could phase into a blockchain technology to index deed/transfer records, but for a while people would still have to verify all the old title stuff and sign off that everything was legit.

I bought a foreclosed house and found the old "title work" in the basement, from the 70s. Its fascinating, it covers from the creation of the state of Ohio down to the previous owner getting title. Its stuffed with all sorts of fascinating things, like racist old deed restrictions from the 20s, banks going bust, families dividing up big parcels of land (and what all the nearby roads are named after) .. Was very cool to see all that. Just a neat anecdote!

I understand the difference on blockchain versus bitcoin, but how do people running blockchain servers profit when there is no crypto currency involved? Would it be a private network of servers to do real estate and you just pay a fee to the service? Right now it all open source, but it seems a private entity would need to get behind it to make it work for real estate.

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Account Closed

Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Some people confuse blockchain with bitcoins. Bitcoin is an implementation of blockchain technology. Blockchain is just a "shared ledger" with a bunch of mathematical features like proof a certain certificate signed a transaction. We could phase into a blockchain technology to index deed/transfer records, but for a while people would still have to verify all the old title stuff and sign off that everything was legit.

I bought a foreclosed house and found the old "title work" in the basement, from the 70s. Its fascinating, it covers from the creation of the state of Ohio down to the previous owner getting title. Its stuffed with all sorts of fascinating things, like racist old deed restrictions from the 20s, banks going bust, families dividing up big parcels of land (and what all the nearby roads are named after) .. Was very cool to see all that. Just a neat anecdote!

I understand the difference on blockchain versus bitcoin, but how do people running blockchain servers profit when there is no crypto currency involved? Would it be a private network of servers to do real estate and you just pay a fee to the service? Right now it all open source, but it seems a private entity would need to get behind it to make it work for real estate.

The bitcoin design makes it intentionally harder and harder to mine as time goes on, so the incentive to keep the miners around (and processing transactions) is a transaction fee.

I'd guess the only way anyone would trust a title blockchain is that if it had government oversight/sponsorship, I guess by county recorders. And it would have to be completely open and non proprietary. Some sort of standards body would lay out the design, then software companies can implement, and the county recorder gets deeds in there.

However if those deeds aren't necessarily legit, like those Texas cases in the first post, the whole thing is just a glorified index and you'd still need title searches.

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Michael Kalis

Investor · Plymouth, MI · Member since 2016 · 48 posts · 70 votes

8y

Interesting discussion and you are really right on that title and notaries are a silly thing. Personally, we do all mail away closings and I generally don't buy title insurance. I think I might start a "money I've saved on title insurance jar" and I bet I could go to Hawaii a couple times a year. However, if the home is newer (last 20 years) this is easier to do. (Might want to buy title insurance until you are confident in this stuff).

That said geography matters.

East coast - really tougher to get things done. Lawers are needed, they get in the way and charge to much. I had a closing in Philly and tried to find a closing attorney that could close in a couple weeks. "Sir... we are booked for 2 months, it's very busy here. Nothing we can do. Unless, of course, you are willing to pay $1,500 instead of $750, then we have openings all next week" (I can not make that up)

Chicago - Really a lot of legal-smegal that seems to go into those closings.

Georgia / Carolinas - supper easy. I think I closed a home in S. Carolina with less than 10 pieces of paper and 5 minutes. Seriously simple.

New Mexico - They had to send a notary that the local title company was affiliated with (naturally driving up the cost). So I did my normal mail away closing, but they didn't let me just sign in my office with my assistant that is a notary, I needed the one they specifically sent. She was 70 yrs old and couldn't see. She asked me to read my ID to her... literally, the one reason she had to drive out was to ID me... but I digress.

Is the system messy... yes sir! Can someone in here build something better and improve the world for all of us, I sure hope so!

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Tom GimerBusiness Member

DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Michael Kalis:

Interesting discussion and you are really right on that title and notaries are a silly thing. Personally, we do all mail away closings and I generally don't buy title insurance. I think I might start a "money I've saved on title insurance jar" and I bet I could go to Hawaii a couple times a year. However, if the home is newer (last 20 years) this is easier to do. (Might want to buy title insurance until you are confident in this stuff).

That said geography matters.

East coast - really tougher to get things done. Lawers are needed, they get in the way and charge to much. I had a closing in Philly and tried to find a closing attorney that could close in a couple weeks. "Sir... we are booked for 2 months, it's very busy here. Nothing we can do. Unless, of course, you are willing to pay $1,500 instead of $750, then we have openings all next week" (I can not make that up)

Chicago - Really a lot of legal-smegal that seems to go into those closings.

Georgia / Carolinas - supper easy. I think I closed a home in S. Carolina with less than 10 pieces of paper and 5 minutes. Seriously simple.

New Mexico - They had to send a notary that the local title company was affiliated with (naturally driving up the cost). So I did my normal mail away closing, but they didn't let me just sign in my office with my assistant that is a notary, I needed the one they specifically sent. She was 70 yrs old and couldn't see. She asked me to read my ID to her... literally, the one reason she had to drive out was to ID me... but I digress.

Is the system messy... yes sir! Can someone in here build something better and improve the world for all of us, I sure hope so!

If you're buying in Philly without title insurance keep us posted as to when your 'title insurance savings jar' is emptied and you have to sell a door to cover your attorney fees.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member

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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

8y

Blockchain is a technology that is an answer to a problem that no one has. It has been around for 10 years and still has no practical application.

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Tom GimerBusiness Member

DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

Blockchain is a technology that is an answer to a problem that no one has. It has been around for 10 years and still has no practical application.

But I heard it was going to make medical records accurate.

Does BP have a medical records forum?

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Michael Kalis

Investor · Plymouth, MI · Member since 2016 · 48 posts · 70 votes

8y

@Tom Gimer - I have learned that I should not buy in Philly as an outsider! The city of brotherly love loved my checkbook! I think I was taken at every corner, from the attornies to the seller to the transfer tax (I think it was over $4K for a $100K home)... the only saving grace was I got an awesome cheesesteak while I was out there. They really are darn good there and I can't put my finger on why... but they just are. But yes... on the east coast, I think title issues are VERY different then from new or newer developments in the south. Certainly a different level of risk. Conversely, there are no cheesesteaks in the south... so you just can't win on all fronts.

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James Ma

Burnaby, BC · Member since 2017 · 283 posts · 268 votes

8y

I'm excited for the future where blockchain has the potential to make real estate processes go much smoother. Long gone will be the days of having to pay $4K to transfer your property to the new owner and it'll cost maybe hundreds of dollars for someone to verify the transaction.

Real estate and assets will simply have a specific code attached to it and designated to an owner, the blockchain will also be able to act as an escrow and release the funds & asset to each party once each person fulfills their side of the deal.

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James Ma

Burnaby, BC · Member since 2017 · 283 posts · 268 votes

8y

@James E.

Here's some interesting reads on how tech is changing RE industry already

Blockchain reducing property purchases costs in future

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/property-report/blockchain-technology-threatens-the-middleman-in-real-estate-transactions/article37605792/

360 degrees and mobile devices are being used to rent and sell properties

A few different apps illustrating how things are changing and agents / realtors will need to find new ways to bring value and info to their clients as the apps makes things easier and easier for the general public to find or buy properties.

I thought the coolest app was Feeduck which allows you to have realtors bid on offering their services to you for selling your property. In a hot market like where I live, most condos will sell themself within a week just by having someone open the door and showing the place so having a low commission agent is ideal since selling skills aren't as critical

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Scott Lepore

Flipper/Rehabber · Littleton, CO · Member since 2014 · 75 posts · 75 votes

8y

I've seen the future. Vegans will rule the world and everyone will use blockchain.

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It's 2018... someone tell my why these are still thing

It's 2018... someone tell my why these are still thing

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