Need advice: Buying from a desperate owner

Need advice: Buying from a desperate owner

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

There's a lot of background on this but I'm going to keep it as short as possible because I have a very specific question. I am a REALTOR and intimately familiar with the home, the property value, and the rental value. You can safely assume my numbers are correct.

I wired $11,000 to their bank 18 hours prior to the courthouse sale and stopped the foreclosure process. Owners want to sell me the property and then rent it back. Actual property value is $220,000. Owners owe $105,000. They are willing to sell it to me for $140,000 minus the $11,000 I already paid to stop the foreclosure. This puts $25,000 in their pocket and gives me a property with immediate equity.

To summarize, I already paid $11,000 in cash and intend to pay another $19,000 in cash. That leaves $110,000 to finance on a property valued at $220,000.

How do I structure this to ensure the bank lends on it? If I say I'm buying it for $140,000 they will want 20% down ($28,000) but I've already put $11,000 towards the purchase that the bank won't count and I've only got $19,000 more available (plus closing costs). If I say the purchase price is $105,000 they will want $21,000 down. I can afford that but then the owner isn't getting their $25,000 in cash.

Is this making sense? Does anyone have a suggestion?

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Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
10y

I don't know but one thing for sure: DON'T lie to the bank. That is called bank fraud and the penalties are VERY high. You might need to find a private lender to take it down and then possibly refi. I am not a finance guy but there are plenty on BP that could offer suggestions. Good luck.

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  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    I don't know but one thing for sure: DON'T lie to the bank. That is called bank fraud and the penalties are VERY high. You might need to find a private lender to take it down and then possibly refi. I am not a finance guy but there are plenty on BP that could offer suggestions. Good luck.

  • Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    10y

    Maybe talk them down to 105,000 and include 1-3 years of free or discounted rent.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    Or take title sub2, then refi 6-12 months later.  Due on sale risks of course, though minimal.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    10y

    I'm definitely not trying to skirt any laws. I just wasn't thinking clearly.

    If I buy the property for $135,000 the bank will want 20% down which is $27,000. I intend to put down $30,000 and finance $105,000. I just got confused because I "loaned" $11,000 to the owners already. As long as I can include that $11,000 as part of my down-payment, everything should flow just like a normal purchase.

    This is what happens when I try to perform math in public. Sorry for wasting anyone's time!

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    10y

    I'm not comfortable with a "subject to" deal and their bank won't allow an assumption, so I decided to stick with traditional financing.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    10y

    @Jassem A. I am actually kicking that idea around. Our original intent was for me to purchase the property and then rent it to them for around 50% of market value ($600). My concern is they will squander the lump sum and be right back in the same boat. We are now considering a lower purchase price but crediting them "free" rent for a certain number of months. The problem is that the bank will want 20% down on the purchase price, so how do I escape that?

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    the 11k the seller did not get.. it went to the sellers creditors.. now that the property is current.. just take title sub too while you work it out.

    since they are going to be living there they know the payments are being made because they are paying you rent  correct ?

    We can no longer do this type of transaction on the West coast if you do a owner occ foreclosure bail out believe it not its against the law to rent it back to the owner...

  • Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    10y

    @Nathan Gesner

    Probably not going to escape the 20%. Plus there is going to be closing costs. The 20% will be less if they accept a lower offer. Free rent for 25,000 at 600/mo would work out to be about 3.5 years but I would probably at least charge something. Not sure I would want to pay the PITI for 3.5 years but could be worth it for 100k in equity.

  • Investor · Spring, TX · Member since 2016 · 25 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    I have heard you can take over their mortgage at 105,000 (they would need to go with you to their bank/lender) and then give them the difference.  I second trying to talk them down to $105,000 as I think it would be easier.  Also, I don't think you will need the down payment to take over someone else mortgage and remain with the lender, but you will have to talk to their institution for specifics.  I'm following this thread to see what else happens.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Nathan Gesner,

    I'm not a lender, so I don't see why the lender would want you to put 20% down when you're already at 60% LTV. Doesn't make sense ...

    ... unless they WANT to the house go back into foreclosure ...

  • Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    You said that you are not "comfortable" with sub-to, but that is the way to go. Sometimes you have to get out of your comfort zone. You already paid 11k out of pocket. Just get them to sign a deed to you. Now you own the house. Get them their money and you can rent it to them short term until they find something else. Or you can hold back 6 months of rent from their payment while they live there. Then rehab and sell. When you sell, it gets rid of their loan. 

    I have done this type of situation many times in the past. I dont like to do the sub-to for very long, maybe a year or two at most, but it is a great way to close AND finance a rehab very quick and easy. I like quick and easy.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    10y

    @Westley Bachmeyer, I've already spoken with the current lender and they will not allow an assumption.

    @David Dachtera They may not require 20% down. I just don't know because my lender hasn't given me an answer. If I buy it at 50% LTV - or even 70% LTV - then it has enough equity that I should be required to put anything down.

    @Rick Pozos I've read about Sub-To and understand the concept but have never done it nor do I know anyone that has. It sounds simple enough and very low-risk, but I'm not going into something unless I know what I'm doing. 

    As I said, this is the initial phase and I'm just considering options. This literally happened this morning at 11am and I had a busy day at work so there was little time to think about it. My initial thought was to assume the loan but that option is dead in the water. Next option is to either purchase through a local lender. I'm also considering finding an investment lender but that would require working with an unknown and higher rates. Sub-to sounds like a great option and seems easy from what I've read but I really need to study up on it. I would appreciate it if someone has a good discussion thread they could point me to.

    Thank you for all the responses so far!

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    10y

    And a follow-up...

    I'm reading some articles on the subject-to option. If I understand it correctly, the seller would file a Quit Claim Deed transferring the property to me. I become the legal owner. However, the seller is still on the hook for the current mortgage but I am the one making the payments. This gets the owner out of their mess and gives me ownership without going through a lender, closing costs, etc. The seller also gets the benefit of good payment history which will help their credit recover.

    I also read about putting the property under a Land Trust with me as the Trustee. This is a way of assigning me interest and giving me control but providing a little more protection for the buyer.

    If anyone has personal experience with a subject-to that is willing to share that experience, please message me!

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  • Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    That is exactly how it all happens except you do a warranty deed instead of a quit claim deed. I have done deeds directly into my name and I have also used a land trust. I set up the land trust for them, then they immediately transfer the beneficial interest in the land trust to me. I am also the trustee of the trust. You also want to get a "release of information authorization" and a limited power of attorney from the sellers. This is just to make sure that you can talk with the bank when making any changes or getting the payoff to sell or refi. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Nathan Gesner,

    Rick Pozos really nailed it. If you want to pursue subject-to, see if the seller will do as Rick suggested - deed the property into either a land trust or revocable trust and assign beneficial interest to you. This helps fend off due-on-sale as the ownership then does not change once the property is in the trust.

    For asset protection and to avoid possible probate issues, I'd use a third-party trustee, but I'm not an expert on that. Seek legal counsel.

  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    @Nathan Gesner mentioned about owner occupied foreclosure bailout being against the law to rent back to the owner. That was my first thought when I read your post, but I don't know the laws in your state or if that's even a state thing. I thought it wasn't allowed at all...

    Also, they aren't currently paying their mortgage, what makes you think they'll pay their rent? That sounds way more harsh than I mean. I'm just trying to give you something to think about.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Mindy Jensen  it is 100% the law in Oregon every state has their own statue's

    my experience with this.. is the owner will make it maybe 6 months and you will be evicting them.

    this is true usually 9 out of 10 times.. I acquired well over 100 rentals in PDX prior to the law changing using this model.. 2 actually bought the home... 93 had to be evicted within first year.

    5 to 10 trashed the house on the way out..

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    10y

    As I said, this is a lengthy issue. The current owners are unsophisticated people and bad at managing money. They have a severely disabled son that requires full-time care and it's not cheap. They took a big financial hit last winter that put them in a bad situation and their income was cut by about 1/3. Once they get things straightened out in the next 6 months or so, they will be fine. They can't survive on their own until then.

    Their income is $2500. Their mortgage is $1,000 and utilities run about $200. Just food, diapers, and medicines for their disabled son runs around $800. That leaves $500 for the other three family members.

    According to you've shared and what I've read, it could be considered "fraud" to deed the property to me and then rent it back from me. I don't understand why that is. I've searched and don't find it addressed in Wyoming law so I'll have to talk to my attorney.

    My intent is to help this family stay in the home. I'm not wealthy enough to gift them the money needed. They need more than local churches could provide and the State can't help them for another 6 - 9 months. If I don't do something, they will eventually default on the mortgage and lose the home. The only option is to get them out from under the mortgage, rent it back to them cheap, and help them catch back up. They could default in the payment of rent but you just have to trust me when I say these are good people that will do the right thing. They are unsophisticated but they see the gravity of the situation and that I am trying to save them.

    I need to talk to an attorney but it appears it may be wiser to just purchase the property.

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  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2012 · 506 posts · 331 votes
    10y

    @Nathan Gesner perhaps I'm not thinking clearly right now, but I'd write up the contract to buy the house for the $140k that you agreed on and show an EMD or Deposit to the seller of $11k. When the HUD is drawn up, the $11k will show as a debit to funds due the seller and a credit towards what you have to put down.

    Left out of my response is any opinion about the legality or sensibility of renting back to the owners because I don't believe that's the intention of your original post and I also have nothing to add on that front.

  • Rental Property Investor · Charleston, WV · Member since 2013 · 262 posts · 109 votes
    10y

    I would just copy and paste your original post into an email you can send to multiple local banks in your area. Many offer in-house loans that the lender looks at the numbers. Your 11,000 could be considered a downpayment already.

  • Bill S.Pro Member
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    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Nathan Gesner suggested, the reason 5 out of 10 trash the house is because of their anger toward the people who helped them stay in their home longer. The people who helped them in a situation where they were about to lose everything.

    Right now the first thing to do is decide what you are doing, charity or business. After that, the rest is easy. 

    Now to find the money. I see two options

    1) Hard money - repay the loan after seasoning with a conventional loan that takes out the hard money loan in a non-cashout refi. It costs but it also works.

    2) Finding a local bank or credit union that will lend to you on equity. I have obtained a business loan secured by real estate for similar situations. 

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Did "probate" keyword get me here? Is seller living or another party trying to sell this to you? I got lost in the rather mis-directed thread. 

    This is a foreclosure equity purchase deal. You buy sub-2. Period.

    Listen to @David Dachtera and @Jay Hinrichs especially.

    You don't seem to have a grasp on how lenders work. Unless a private party lender, you have 0% of chance of assumption. 

    You are trying to reinstate the existing delinquent/defaulted mortgage. You buy the property from the seller who passes marketable title in exchange for the balance due the seller for what you agree to pay for the equity. Payment could be cash, paper, a note in another property, a vehicle, etc.It's called freestyle bartering.

    Advancing money without a way too protect your deal is like having unprotected sex. Now that you've taken the pressure off the seller and they are no longer "in heat" you may have difficulty getting further cooperation since you did not think thus through fully and engineer this prior to spending the money.

    Now their problem is YOUR problem. You could have recorded a performance trust deed referencing your written agreement. You could have obtained the lender info along with authorization, transferred property to a title holding trust and stepped into seller's shoes without need for assumption.

    Since you took action but are uncomfortable with sub-2, I suggest that you pass on the deal to someone who is both comfortable and experienced if you are unwilling to feel uncomfortable going forward.

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
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    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Nathan Gesner, just a few thoughts.  First if you sent them $11,000 then get a receipt from them for the $11,000 and it will count towards your 20% down payment.  You can also borrow the money from the seller for the down payment.  Have hem loan you the money by paying them say $10,000 have them give you a receipt then have them loan you the money back.  Not all banks allow it as it must be disclosed, but my bank has even allowed the seller to take a 2nd mortgage behind the bank for the full 20%  I have bought 3 places that way so far.  Then you can pay them the money in a year when they are broke again.

    Final advice, my belief is that if you do not get them out of the property sooner or later you will have to kick them out.  Find them a nice low cost rental for them to move into.  You can probably find a government assisted one.  You do not want to be the guy kicking them out of the house with the handicapped kid on to the street, nor do you want to be the guy losing $700 per month for the next 20 years on a place.

    Feel free to call me or PM me if you just want to chat.  Better then that drop by, I am putting shake shingles on my office and you can nail while we talk.

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    @Jerry W.

    Nail while we talk LOL> Whistle while you work:) For how long to clear his bill to you??:)
    OP...find a private lender to take it down, refi when possible. Fast, easy, secure IF you know you can refi within a reasonable amount of time. As other stated, this owner isn't a good candidate for a tenant.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    10y

    @Rick H. thanks for the comment but I think you missed some of my previous posts.

    Let me explain this one more time for those that don't want to read back from the beginning. The owners were headed to foreclosure in less than 24 hours. If it foreclosed, they would not be able to buy it back, nor could I afford to buy it back. I loaned them $11,000 (fully documented) to stop the foreclosure and save the home.

    These are good, honest people in a difficult situation. I've known them for four years and trust they will always do the right thing. I appreciate everyone's concerns but please stop telling me how to protect myself when things turn south because I am a big boy and can handle it or accept the losses if something falls apart.

    @Jerry W. I am willing to lose cash-flow on this one for a couple years but get some serious equity. I can buy this and get approximately $110,000 in equity immediately and the rent will cover the mortgage so it's not like I'm throwing money away. If I put down 20% I'll have 60% equity. I also project $1,000 cash flow after two years.

    I appreciate the invitation to help roof but I'm renovating my own little hoarder house right now and it's a month behind schedule!

    I'm meeting with my attorney on Tuesday to discuss Sub-to, Land Trust, and other options but I think I'll just buy through a local lender. I have a strong history with them and this property will have 50% equity so it should be easy.

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