Educate your Real Estate agent

Educate your Real Estate agent

New Orleans, LA · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 6 votes

Hi BP Community,

I wanted to share my recent interaction (email exchange) with a real estate agent who was advising me to up my offer price to beat the competition.

About 20 days ago, I called an agent about a double (1840 sqft) house in need of full renovation. This was a foreclose home-path property deal. The advertised sales price at that time was $219,000. Agent immediately told me that the property was under contract for much more than the advertised price. I run the numbers and it looked like a good purchase in that part of the town, the comps checked out. I told the agent to give me a call if the deal did not close. Apparently, the sale fell though, and I received a call from the RE agent about putting my "best and highest" offer because, there were multiple offers on the table over the asking price, as she claimed. I run the numbers again and I was comfortable offering $250,000 with 10% down and financing rest of the purchase price and renovation cost. Again, I received an email from the RE Agent hinting that my $250,000 offer price, which was $31,000 over the asking price, would likely be rejected because there were other high offers on the table.

I felt compelled to write this agent my thought process and analysis of this deal, in hopes to educate this person why my offer was "best and highest" offer for any buyer. Below, is the email I sent to the agent:

""
Hi RE Agent,

Thanks for the info! Looks like comparable properties around sell for between $221/sqft to $244/sqft.

My rough estimate on rehab on 1840 sqft is $80/sqft which is $147k.

If I buy the property, let's say, for $270k+$147k (Reno budget) +$5k (carrying costs) = I am all in at $422k.

If sold at $240 sqft *1840sqft= $441,600

Sales price - all in price - sales commission (5%) = $441,600-$422,000-$22,080= -$480 (negative $480).

As you can see, from this logic above, $250k should be absolute maximum amount any person (investor or individual) should pay, including myself. Otherwise, buyer will be, most guaranteed, upside down!

I am not sure if the sellers look favorably on all cash deal (in which case I could do $190k all cash) but otherwise $250k with 10% down homeopath loan is what I would say is my best and highest offer.

I hope in this email, I have outlined my investing strategy and the way I think of the "numbers" and if this template is useful for you to bring me other deals that fit my "formula", I would be most grateful. ""

I am not sure whether if I helped this agent to understand the real numbers behind this deal, but i know that eventually she will come to understand and think like an investor when dealing with investors.

As part of your interview process, you must ask your RE agent to give you analysis of a deal and then schedule 20-minute telephone conversation to speak with them about their assumptions and numbers. This will give you a window in their though process and their knowledge to vet the deals for you.

I welcome your thoughts and feedback! 

Thanks

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Most Popular Reply

Real Estate Agent · Falls Church · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y

@Diana Pritchard Why waste time writing that email to him, he/she is telling you facts. If there are higher offers on the table you will lose. Even more so if the offers are cash. 

Move on to the next property. Competition is high because of low inventory nationwide.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Ozzy SirimsiBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 782 votes
    9y

    I wonder if it is going to change anything or even change REA's perspective, there are many people out there who don't run the numbers and find themselves in a bad position.

    You know what you are doing, that's what matters :D) 

  • Real Estate Agent · Falls Church · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Diana Pritchard Why waste time writing that email to him, he/she is telling you facts. If there are higher offers on the table you will lose. Even more so if the offers are cash. 

    Move on to the next property. Competition is high because of low inventory nationwide.

  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Diana Pritchard,

    I don't estimate repairs off of square footage. It can easily cause extreme overages or far under numbers. If you go in and see that the house only needs a deep cleaning and some carpet.... well your 147K figure is way off on repairs. Another buyer will step in and outbid you and still make money. If you go in and see that not only does it need 2 new kitchens, the foundation is shot, all the bathrooms are destroyed, the roof needs to be done... Well honestly I could get all of that in for under 147K all day long in my area. I can get one built with lot for around 105/sqft (193K) by one of several builders.

    I recommend basing repairs off of actual repair costs as opposed to per Sq foot.

  • Turnkey Provider · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Diana, thanks for sharing. I think your approach is process oriented which is what matters most. Deals come and go. Employing a systematic approach/process for analyzing deals is important so that you aren't tempted to make exceptions and chase deals that will wipe you out. In my opinion, good judgement and an unemotional process are what keep you around in any market. Stick with what you're doing, track your deals so that you have a proprietary database to lean on, and update your assumptions as you go. Best of luck with your investments.

  • New Orleans, LA · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Devin Baer:

    Diana, thanks for sharing. I think your approach is process oriented which is what matters most. Deals come and go. Employing a systematic approach/process for analyzing deals is important so that you aren't tempted to make exceptions and chase deals that will wipe you out. In my opinion, good judgement and an unemotional process are what keep you around in any market. Stick with what you're doing, track your deals so that you have a proprietary database to lean on, and update your assumptions as you go. Best of luck with your investments.

     would you share your process for tracking your deals in database and when/at what times do you refer to your database. thanks so much

  • New Orleans, LA · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Mike Cumbie:

    Hi @Diana Pritchard,

    I don't estimate repairs off of square footage. It can easily cause extreme overages or far under numbers. If you go in and see that the house only needs a deep cleaning and some carpet.... well your 147K figure is way off on repairs. Another buyer will step in and outbid you and still make money. If you go in and see that not only does it need 2 new kitchens, the foundation is shot, all the bathrooms are destroyed, the roof needs to be done... Well honestly I could get all of that in for under 147K all day long in my area. I can get one built with lot for around 105/sqft (193K) by one of several builders.

    I recommend basing repairs off of actual repair costs as opposed to per Sq foot.

     Thank you for the comment Mike! I went by this property and saw what it needed in terms of renovations. I first calculated the dollar amounts (e.g. roof 7k, foundation 5k, kitchens 12k, bathrooms 9k ect...) and then divided total by sq ft of the living space to come up with my estimate of $80/sqft to renovate. 

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    9y

    Diana you should also have a contingency fund in there.

    If the market is hot you need to search for off market deals. That is what I do for my clients buying retail shopping centers.

    If everyone sees the property then you are competing with cash buyers and possibly 1031 buyers who will pay a premium to avoid recapture of  past tax write downs.  

  • Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    @Diana Pritchard Your analysis doesn't hurt but at the end of the day competing offers are competing offers. It's hard for any agent to forecast competing offers and those competing offers are what turn $219K into $250K. Now asking an agent to talk through their assumptions on a renovation budget (potentially low) and their estimate of an ARV (potentially) high is a whole other level of dangerous!

  • Kissimmee, FL · Member since 2016 · 83 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    @Diana Pritchard

    Thank you very  much for sharing your experience with all of us.

  • Professional · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    @Diana Pritchard  here is my take-away. 

    You demonstrate your knowledge of that micro-market, can’t argue fact

    Clearly you educate the real estate agent on your cost to do business. ++

    You clarify how you could do this deal, using sound “investor logic”.

    Other BP'ers can opine as to what other metrics to include, but it appears you have laid out 

    a framework, for deal flow to come your way my thoughts. Thanks 

  • Investor · South Louisiana, LA · Member since 2014 · 17 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    If the agent your are talking about is the listing agent, then you shouldn't waste your time. That agent has little to zero impact on the initial list price. That seller primarily uses an appraiser to get their value. That agent is simply and mindlessly shuffling paperwork.. They take your offer and input it on the sellers website. That's it. They want to  put this property pending and move on to the next listing.

    If the agent you speak of  is your personal agent then must be able to grasp basic valuation. if they cant, move on. You know your stuff, that's what matters.

  • Realtor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2014 · 935 posts · 467 votes
    9y

    @Diana Pritchard in the end it's the "offer " in the sellers hand, not so much the logic. But you are to commended for helping that agent understand "investing vs buying/selling". I just attended Brokers continued education in Charlotte,NC on the topic of "real estate as an investment " and couldn't believe how simplistic the material was. And this was for agents! 

    Persevere!

  • Real Estate Agent · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    I'm an agent in the Orange County, NY area and I have a hunger to learn REI- this post/thread was great and my reason for being a part of this group, to expand my knowledge--so I thank you All! PS-I'm looking for investors in my area
  • New Orleans, LA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 8 votes
    9y

    @Diana Pritchard As a REA in your exact area, I  think I know exactly what property you speak of and without lokking it up or  giving away address, let's just say it is in mid city area. I think your reno estimate is kind of high based on past experiences of doing reno jobs and that is even with replacing roof. I think it could be done under 130K including a 20% buffer for unforeseens as it appeared to have electric and plumbing already redone. Also I think you are underestimating final sales price on a good quality reno, no Home Depot Vanities etc., as once Mr. Torres development is completed, the sales price should be more than $244/SF as that is a more highly desirable area than most of Mid City. While I am not really disputing your math and valuation, there are two things to remember here...

    1) Homepath was primarily created for Homeowners to owner occupy and in such since you are bidding against a potential homeowner who's willing to pay a higher price in order to get into a neighborhood they could otherwise not afford thereby driving up the price. They don't care to flip it for profit. They just want a place to live and will likely HOLD for a while til they outgrow it and need more room. So they don't care if they pay a little extra for it as long as it's cheaper than buying a fully renovated house in the area.

    2) Other potential investors you are competing with especially some of the bigger ones I have sold to in the past have CASH and their own crews or ones that they use regularly and have a long standing relationship with and therefore can reno at a lower cost than the rest of us at fair market value.

    Sending your agent those figures is nice, but she doesn't care if you're going through listing agent. She was hired to sell the REO and do just that. She just needs the sale. Now if you are using your own personal agent, then I am glad you provided them the education and hopefully with your guidance y'all can find properties suitable for your investment portfolio. New Orleans is a tough market to find deals in in the more/most desirable neighborhoods due to limited availability since after Katrina, most of them were scooped up in the last few years.

    My advice to you would be to offer the highest you feel comfortable with offering for your investment model and sit back. If someone else wins bid, then ask if you can put in a backup offer so you can be next in line before it hits market again. Not sure if Homepath allows that as it has been a few years since I sold one. And if you don't get it don't sweat it. Eventually with hard work and searching you will find something where the numbers work in your favor.

    Other piece of advice is you must have tremendous patience when trying to purchase REO properties. Best bet is to try and find properties not listed that you can obtain below market value.

    Hopefully my post was helpful to you and I know your frustration because I am always looking for deals for my investors.

    I have over 15 years experience in the business and was my mother's assistant before so almost 30 years. and altough I have seen almost everything that can happen in a RE transaction, each one is truly an adventure. And please forgive the photo on company web site, it was taken 2 weeks before my participation in St Baldrick's  event last year so I saw no need for a haircut. I'll be ther again at Finn McCool's, 3701 Banks on March 25th, 11-4 if you would like to meet. Beware I may be a little buzzed. LOL

  • New Orleans, LA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 8 votes
    9y

    Diana Pritchard As a REA in your exact area, I think I know exactly what property you speak of and without lokking it up or giving away address, let's just say it is in mid city area. I think your reno estimate is kind of high based on past experiences of doing reno jobs and that is even with replacing roof. I think it could be done under 130K including a 20% buffer for unforeseens as it appeared to have electric and plumbing already redone. Also I think you are underestimating final sales price on a good quality reno, no Home Depot Vanities etc., as once Mr. Torres development is completed, the sales price should be more than $244/SF as that is a more highly desirable area than most of Mid City. While I am not really disputing your math and valuation, there are two things to remember here...

    1) Homepath was primarily created for Homeowners to owner occupy and in such since you are bidding against a potential homeowner who's willing to pay a higher price in order to get into a neighborhood they could otherwise not afford thereby driving up the price. They don't care to flip it for profit. They just want a place to live and will likely HOLD for a while til they outgrow it and need more room. So they don't care if they pay a little extra for it as long as it's cheaper than buying a fully renovated house in the area.

    2) Other potential investors you are competing with especially some of the bigger ones I have sold to in the past have CASH and their own crews or ones that they use regularly and have a long standing relationship with and therefore can reno at a lower cost than the rest of us at fair market value.

    Sending your agent those figures is nice, but she doesn't care if you're going through listing agent. She was hired to sell the REO and do just that. She just needs the sale. Now if you are using your own personal agent, then I am glad you provided them the education and hopefully with your guidance y'all can find properties suitable for your investment portfolio. New Orleans is a tough market to find deals in in the more/most desirable neighborhoods due to limited availability since after Katrina, most of them were scooped up in the last few years.

    My advice to you would be to offer the highest you feel comfortable with offering for your investment model and sit back. If someone else wins bid, then ask if you can put in a backup offer so you can be next in line before it hits market again. Not sure if Homepath allows that as it has been a few years since I sold one. And if you don't get it don't sweat it. Eventually with hard work and searching you will find something where the numbers work in your favor.

    Other piece of advice is you must have tremendous patience when trying to purchase REO properties. Best bet is to try and find properties not listed that you can obtain below market value.

    Hopefully my post was helpful to you and I know your frustration because I am always looking for deals for my investors.

    I have over 15 years experience in the business and was my mother's assistant before so almost 30 years. and altough I have seen almost everything that can happen in a RE transaction, each one is truly an adventure.

    I'll be at Finn McCool's, 3701 Banks on March 25th, 11-4 getting my head shaved for St. Baldrick's agin this year if you would like to meet and talk REI or RE in general. Beware I may be a little buzzed. LOL

  • Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2012 · 968 posts · 747 votes
    9y

    I agree with @Lloyd Lind. Im also a local realtor and investor. I know the property as well. I viewed it and ran my numbers on it and walked away from it. Too much competition on it and it will go for well over asking price. Our market is absolutely saturated with investors and we have many rookies overbidding and overpaying for properties, ESPECIALLY the REOs. If it's on the MLS in our market it's not a good deal...

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    This isn't a dig at you, but I hear all the time from "investors" that a property is not worth X dollars and no one is going to pay more than that...and if they do they will lose money. Yet every time someone tells me that it sells for much more than X, and the buyer makes plenty of money on the project.  

    I do question your  $147k repair budget as I live in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country and it would be incredibly hard for me to spend that amount on a high end renovation on a large property. A property that size would take me about half as much in the DC area.

  • Investor · Wakefield, MA · Member since 2016 · 107 posts · 71 votes
    9y

    I feel like this education should occur upfront with your agent. Once offers are in, it's basically out of their hands. A seller isn't going to turn down a higher offer because the numbers don't add up for the eventual buyer. 

    In this case, I'd use your valuations and process to inform your agent of what you're looking for in future investments. This way, they can alert you to properties that fit your criteria. 

  • Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes
    9y

    @Diana Pritchard I agree with other that your rehab budget is way too high.  I am building new construction duplexes in the $90-100/ft2 right now in Midcity. Unless the house is a full gut to the studs rehab, I would be floored it it cost much more than $60/ft2.

    Midcity is on fire right now and buyers are paying way too much.  I also think that there is alot of first time home buyers in that area driving up prices.

  • Greg JeanfreauPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 145 posts · 127 votes
    9y

    Just like @Lloyd Lind & @Braden Smith, I looked at the property with my client. We actually put a cash offer in on the first round below the asking price and did not get it. It came back on the market and my client offered a little more cash, but we she ultimately pulled the offer because of the level of work. My client wanted to put the floorplan back to a shotgun as unique as that sounds. I don't think that your assessment is really that high. You can drop $100k on a gutted reno without blinking and without major upgrades. Every window in that place needs to be reworked. The electrical and plumbing are roughed in, but you would likely have to undo and redo it. The foundation has major issues. I have to assume that the sewerline is totalled. The siding sucks. That stupid closet on the back is a disaster. Costs can really spiral out of control when you not only have to renovate, but also undo someone else's crappy renovation attempts. And THAT is why bank owned and short sales are not necessarily the "deals" that people think that they are. Often times, the former owner (or flailing current owner) are willing to walk away from their property and ruin their credit. Why? Was it personal OR what it that the project is a total cluster****? 

    On another note, I don't understand how your agent knows what the other bid is on Homepath. I don't recall them ever disclosing what the offers are. Maybe I missed something. But either way, whether you are buying it as an investor or an owner occupant, you shouldn't overpay and if you've put together your numbers along with research and come up with your highest and best, then that's that. Put it in and see what happens. You really never know what can happen. I've facilitated all kinds of crazy deals throughout the years that I thought didn't stand a chance. Don't get caught up in the BS hype. There will always be others.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y

    For some reason you think the agent needs to be educated - that is wrong, the agent is doing their job of accepting offers and trying to get the seller as high a price as possible. 

    Whoever had bid higher than you are willing to bid is either a newbie who might suffer from buying this, or maybe somebody whose analysis has them still making their target profit at the higher bid. 

    Who knows, it could be your anslysis could have some error or assumption to it that is missing the mark.

    Bid your highest and best, and if you really want this property watch for it because if you are patient it might come back on the market again - after all, it fell through for some reason once before, and that could happen again.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    9y

    @Diana Pritchard

    Homepath loans don't exist any more. 

    Don't spend time "educating" a Realtor. Find another one. If I received that email message from you, I'd throw it in the garbage can and laugh at you. Just being honest. 

  • Contractor · Glen Cove, NY · Member since 2016 · 209 posts · 89 votes
    9y

    Diana. I agree with Mark. The realtor is not working for you. They work for the seller. It may not make any logical sense in your analysis. The real estate is working for a commission and the hugest selling price is how they establish the commission. If there is a lot of interest and competition, logic is out the door. I have seen fixers break comp records. It's location, weak inventory and the uniqueness of the elements of the property and the vision of the other bidders that drives the bidding war.

  • Johnson City, TN · Member since 2014 · 586 posts · 705 votes
    9y

    I don't know how everyone else looks at a deal but I wouldn't dream of paying a dollar over the listing price. Sounds like you are willing to lay out 400k to maybe make 40k. Far too much risk for far too little reward.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed

    You won't get many properties in a competitive market with that outlook. 

    Recently sold 2 HUD properties. Asking price $75,000, accepted offer $98,000. Another asking price $50,000, accepted offer $65,000.

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