Concerning situation with my agent

Find a new property manager. If they don't know what the agreement needs to be to protect your and your asset then they are unprofessional or don't know what they are doing. Grey areas are not a place you want to be in real estate. While this is difficult while managing out of the country it will be worthwhile of any legal issues with the manager or the tenant arise. Don't settle if you're not comfortable with a transaction.

[email protected]301-893-4635 Podcast Guest on Show #192

Russell BrazilBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

2y

Are you hiring her to do property management, or to lease the property?

Property management will not be a standardized form. It's something a company would have drafted with their attorney. If they don't have this....they are probably not actual in the business of managing property.

District Invest Group545 Reviews

3 Reply

OP

Rental Property Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2019 · 144 posts · 72 votes

2y

Quote from @Bradley Buxton:

Find a new property manager. If they don't know what the agreement needs to be to protect your and your asset then they are unprofessional or don't know what they are doing. Grey areas are not a place you want to be in real estate. While this is difficult while managing out of the country it will be worthwhile of any legal issues with the manager or the tenant arise. Don't settle if you're not comfortable with a transaction.

I would agree with this. Trying to navigate a somewhat bumpy situation and find a competent manager. I have replied to her that I will not sign the Agency Status doc she has sent. I sent her a copy of the agreement from the previous manager for her reference and also a couple links to generically create one online. I am baffled since we spent so much time together purchasing the property in the first place.
My instincts indeed are to end this relationship and hire some other PM company fresh. I will review her response. Thank you for the comments. If you have any PM recommendations in Nasvhille, duly appreciated.

OP

Rental Property Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2019 · 144 posts · 72 votes

2y

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Are you hiring her to do property management, or to lease the property?

Property management will not be a standardized form. It's something a company would have drafted with their attorney. If they don't have this....they are probably not actual in the business of managing property.

Well I think both right? I am hiring her to place a new tenant and manage the rental through the duration of the lease. Up to now she has overseen some repairs but has also not provided photos or receipts, I have asked her at least three times.

[email protected]301-893-4635 Podcast Guest on Show #192

Russell BrazilBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

2y

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Are you hiring her to do property management, or to lease the property?

Property management will not be a standardized form. It's something a company would have drafted with their attorney. If they don't have this....they are probably not actual in the business of managing property.

Well I think both right? I am hiring her to place a new tenant and manage the rental through the duration of the lease. Up to now she has overseen some repairs but has also not provided photos or receipts, I have asked her at least three times.

Is she licensed to provide property management in whatever state it is? In most states a real estate salesperson can't manage property. Brokers or a seperate PM license is required. (I have no idea if she's a broker or not). Then there is a few states that do not require any license to manage, such as Maryland.

District Invest Group545 Reviews

OP

Rental Property Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2019 · 144 posts · 72 votes

2y

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Are you hiring her to do property management, or to lease the property?

Property management will not be a standardized form. It's something a company would have drafted with their attorney. If they don't have this....they are probably not actual in the business of managing property.

Well I think both right? I am hiring her to place a new tenant and manage the rental through the duration of the lease. Up to now she has overseen some repairs but has also not provided photos or receipts, I have asked her at least three times.

Is she licensed to provide property management in whatever state it is? In most states a real estate salesperson can't manage property. Brokers or a seperate PM license is required. (I have no idea if she's a broker or not). Then there is a few states that do not require any license to manage, such as Maryland.

Quick research tells me a property manager is required to have a brokers' license. Is a broker's license the same as a broker associate/affiliate? Or is a broker license a higher level license? I have looked up her record and she has an "Affiliate Broker" license.

[email protected]301-893-4635 Podcast Guest on Show #192

Russell BrazilBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

2y

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Are you hiring her to do property management, or to lease the property?

Property management will not be a standardized form. It's something a company would have drafted with their attorney. If they don't have this....they are probably not actual in the business of managing property.

Well I think both right? I am hiring her to place a new tenant and manage the rental through the duration of the lease. Up to now she has overseen some repairs but has also not provided photos or receipts, I have asked her at least three times.

Is she licensed to provide property management in whatever state it is? In most states a real estate salesperson can't manage property. Brokers or a seperate PM license is required. (I have no idea if she's a broker or not). Then there is a few states that do not require any license to manage, such as Maryland.

Quick research tells me a property manager is required to have a brokers' license. Is a broker's license the same as a broker associate/affiliate? Or is a broker license a higher level license? I have looked up her record and she has an "Affiliate Broker" license.

Every state is different on their definitions. Maybe mention the state here and someone's keyword alert will trigger that has expertise in that state.

District Invest Group545 Reviews

Aubrey Maldonado

Real Estate Agent · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 77 votes

2y

@Christopher Davis aside from what seems like a lack of contract knowledge, I'd ask for client references--people who she's managed properties for. If she's not able to provide any, that gives you a clear answer and if she can provide some, you'll likely be able to get insight on how she's doing placing tenants and managing the properties.

[email protected]239-339-3969

Adam BartomeoBusiness Member

Real Estate Broker · Cape Coral, FL · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

2y

Most agents are "FAKERS" in almost everything they do - buying, seller, managing. The successful ones are good at building relationships and can fake it until they make it. But, at some point they faked enough and learned enough to actually do the job. Sir, you have a faker as a property manager. These types of people give PM's a bad name and I would run from her!

Bartomeo Property Management4.7150 Reviews

Caroline Gerardo

Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

2y

Sounds like she has not ongoing managed property. Leasing it is different than providing accounting, reporting, repairs, communicating with you/tenants/insurance/lender, collecting rents. If you believe she is honest, hard working and her style of communicating fits you- she needs an app to help her with paperwork I suggest yardi or doorloop/ get a contract in writing that you negotiate with every nitty gritty duty- for example: who keeps copies of keys, how often are inspections done and how is the data provided to you, what dollar amount she can front money for repairs, when to call you... Or just hire a Pro in Nashville there are many.

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

2y

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

If she is an "Affiliate Broker" then it means she meets the requirements of owning her own brokerage, but she is currently working under another Broker.

Look, it's real simple. She has no clue what she is doing and you shouldn't waste any time trying to train her to be to suck less. I would look for a professional manager and move on.

Remember: cheaper doesn't mean you'll make more money.

Start by going to www.narpm.org to search their directory of managers. These are professionals with additional training and a stricter code of ethics. It's no guarantee but it's a good place to start. You can also search Google and read reviews. Try interviewing at least three managers.

1. Ask how many units they manage and how much experience they have. Feel free to inquire about their staff qualifications if it's a larger organization.

2. Review their management agreement. Make sure it explicitly explains the process for termination if you are unhappy with their services, especially if they violate the terms of your agreement.

3. Understand the fees involved and calculate the total cost for an entire year of management so you can compare the different managers. It may sound nice to pay a 6% management fee but the extra fees can add up to be more than the other company that charges 10% with no additional fees. Fees should be clearly stated in writing, easy to understand, and justifiable. Common fees will include a set-up fee, a leasing fee for each turnover or a lease renewal fee, marking up maintenance, retaining late fees, and more. If you ask the manager to justify a fee and he starts hemming and hawing, move on or require them to remove the fee. Don't be afraid to negotiate, particularly if you have a lot of rentals.

4. Review their lease agreement and addenda. Consider all the things that could go wrong and see if the lease addresses them: unauthorized pets or tenants, early termination, security deposit, lease violations, late rent, eviction, lawn maintenance, parking, etc.

5. Don't just read the lease! Ask the manager to explain their process for dealing with maintenance, late rent, evictions, turnover, etc. If they are professional, they can explain this quickly and easily. If they are VERY professional, they will have their processes in writing as verification that policies are enforced equally and fairly by their entire staff.

6. Ask to speak with some of their current owners and current/former tenants. You can also check their reviews online at Google, Facebook, or Yelp. Just remember: most negative reviews are written by problematic tenants. A tenant complaining online might indicate that the property manager handled them appropriately, so be sure to ask the manager for their side of the story.

7. Look at their marketing strategy. Are they doing everything possible to expose properties to the broadest possible market? Are their listings detailed with good-quality photos? Can they prove how long it takes to rent a vacant property?

This isn't inclusive but should give you a good start. If you have specific questions about property management, I'll be happy to help!

The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews

[email protected]248-209-6824

3 Reply

Drew SygitBusiness Member

Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes

2y

@Christopher Davis "actions speak louder than words" and her actions are TELLING you she's not a property manager, she just wants to place a tenant for a commission.

Logical Property Management4.9458 Reviews

Ayelet Wiedermann

Passaic, NJ · Member since 2024 · 26 posts · 17 votes

2y

@Christopher Davis, I'd agree with the general consensus here. First of all, trust your instincts. If something feels off, it probably is. Second, it sounds like yours sales agent's expertise is in sales. I'd make it clear to her that you appreciate the relationship and would like to maintain that relationship in the event you will buy or sell again, however you'd like to hire someone with expertise specifically in property management to manage the rental. Expertise in property management goes far beyond finding a tenant and managing repairs, and includes well defined processes for managing these things (which you mentioned she is lacking).

As far as finding a great property management company, Keyrenter Denver is great, although I'm not sure they manage in your area. I'd either give them a call and ask for a recommendation, or check NARPM.

Best of luck!

Luka Milicevic

Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

2y

I'm really confused, we have actual property management agreements as part of our standard TREC forms. A sales agreement and confirmation of agency are completely irrelevant to property management.

You have to remember, most agents have absolutely no clue what an investment property is or how it functions....

I have had many clients ask me to manage their properties in the past and I have never agreed as that's not in my scope of expertise.

You should get an actual property manager and not an agent that is trying to get some extra income.

Let me know if you need specific recommendations on managers in the Nashville area.

Brad LarsenPro Member

Property Manager · San Antonio and Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 377 posts · 380 votes

2y

Sounds like a Realtor trying to act as a Property Manager "winging it" This is a huge risk for both parties.

Hire a professional PM Company to care for your asset and YES! get a PMA.

Best of Luck,

Brad

OP

Rental Property Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2019 · 144 posts · 72 votes

2y

Quote from @Luka Milicevic:

I'm really confused, we have actual property management agreements as part of our standard TREC forms. A sales agreement and confirmation of agency are completely irrelevant to property management.

You have to remember, most agents have absolutely no clue what an investment property is or how it functions....

I have had many clients ask me to manage their properties in the past and I have never agreed as that's not in my scope of expertise.

You should get an actual property manager and not an agent that is trying to get some extra income.

Let me know if you need specific recommendations on managers in the Nashville area.

This is exactly right. She is doing this on the side for some extra income. That is the only way to explain why she is being evasive about providing a proper property management agreement. And yes, the sales/agency contracts she has sent are totally irrelevant to management.

Another problem I had with the first PM was she wasn't really assertive in protecting my property. The tenant had pets, against the lease terms, and she never checked on the property. They did a lot of damage. So I made mistakes here too, and this is how I learn.

I do need some recommendations. I have googled PMs in Nashville and a few come with high Google reviews, that's basically all I have to go on. They are bigger agencies and I assume have a tighter, professional approach. I need a manager who can be proactive about protecting the property, terms of the lease, handle repairs efficiently, etc. So I don't have to manage the manager. That's what I need.

Anyway thanks for the input and if you can recommend an *excellent* PM I would appreciate that and probably reach out to them.

Cheers

OP

Rental Property Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2019 · 144 posts · 72 votes

2y

Quote from @Brad Larsen:

Sounds like a Realtor trying to act as a Property Manager "winging it" This is a huge risk for both parties.

Hire a professional PM Company to care for your asset and YES! get a PMA.

Best of Luck,

Brad

Exactly right, thanks

OP

Rental Property Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2019 · 144 posts · 72 votes

2y

Quote from @Ayelet Wiedermann:

@Christopher Davis, I'd agree with the general consensus here. First of all, trust your instincts. If something feels off, it probably is. Second, it sounds like yours sales agent's expertise is in sales. I'd make it clear to her that you appreciate the relationship and would like to maintain that relationship in the event you will buy or sell again, however you'd like to hire someone with expertise specifically in property management to manage the rental. Expertise in property management goes far beyond finding a tenant and managing repairs, and includes well defined processes for managing these things (which you mentioned she is lacking).

As far as finding a great property management company, Keyrenter Denver is great, although I'm not sure they manage in your area. I'd either give them a call and ask for a recommendation, or check NARPM.

Best of luck!

Thanks for the input. Correct about all that. Although property is in Nashville TN, not Denver.

OP

Rental Property Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2019 · 144 posts · 72 votes

2y

Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

If she is an "Affiliate Broker" then it means she meets the requirements of owning her own brokerage, but she is currently working under another Broker.

Look, it's real simple. She has no clue what she is doing and you shouldn't waste any time trying to train her to be to suck less. I would look for a professional manager and move on.

Remember: cheaper doesn't mean you'll make more money.

Start by going to www.narpm.org to search their directory of managers. These are professionals with additional training and a stricter code of ethics. It's no guarantee but it's a good place to start. You can also search Google and read reviews. Try interviewing at least three managers.

1. Ask how many units they manage and how much experience they have. Feel free to inquire about their staff qualifications if it's a larger organization.

2. Review their management agreement. Make sure it explicitly explains the process for termination if you are unhappy with their services, especially if they violate the terms of your agreement.

3. Understand the fees involved and calculate the total cost for an entire year of management so you can compare the different managers. It may sound nice to pay a 6% management fee but the extra fees can add up to be more than the other company that charges 10% with no additional fees. Fees should be clearly stated in writing, easy to understand, and justifiable. Common fees will include a set-up fee, a leasing fee for each turnover or a lease renewal fee, marking up maintenance, retaining late fees, and more. If you ask the manager to justify a fee and he starts hemming and hawing, move on or require them to remove the fee. Don't be afraid to negotiate, particularly if you have a lot of rentals.

4. Review their lease agreement and addenda. Consider all the things that could go wrong and see if the lease addresses them: unauthorized pets or tenants, early termination, security deposit, lease violations, late rent, eviction, lawn maintenance, parking, etc.

5. Don't just read the lease! Ask the manager to explain their process for dealing with maintenance, late rent, evictions, turnover, etc. If they are professional, they can explain this quickly and easily. If they are VERY professional, they will have their processes in writing as verification that policies are enforced equally and fairly by their entire staff.

6. Ask to speak with some of their current owners and current/former tenants. You can also check their reviews online at Google, Facebook, or Yelp. Just remember: most negative reviews are written by problematic tenants. A tenant complaining online might indicate that the property manager handled them appropriately, so be sure to ask the manager for their side of the story.

7. Look at their marketing strategy. Are they doing everything possible to expose properties to the broadest possible market? Are their listings detailed with good-quality photos? Can they prove how long it takes to rent a vacant property?

This isn't inclusive but should give you a good start. If you have specific questions about property management, I'll be happy to help!

Thanks very very much. I will ask these questions. I'm on the NARPM site, but how can I interpret the search results? There are seemingly hundreds of results for PMs in Nashville. But no commentary or a way to rank or evaluate.

Ayelet Wiedermann

Passaic, NJ · Member since 2024 · 26 posts · 17 votes

2y

Apologies @Christopher Davis, I saw Boulder on your profile and jumped to that! Check NARPM and hopefully you'll find a great PM there.

Ayelet

James Hamling

Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes

2y

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

Quote from @Luka Milicevic:

....So I don't have to manage the manager. That's what I need.....

Look, I feel for ya I really do so i hope this doesn't come off as too critical, but your desire is a fantasy, and a dangerous one at that.

You will always, ALWAYS have to manage the manager UNLESS your a-ok sitting back and accepting whatever you get for a result, good or bad.

I would also say this would be a big sign of a GOOD TP/PM team, ones who would tell you this, that you are the executive decision maker not them. That they work to execute on your decisions, and equip you to be best empowered to make the best decisions, but never NEVER will it be 100% hand's off "no managing the managers".

James Hamling

Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes

2y

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

Quote from @Christopher Davis:

If she is an "Affiliate Broker" then it means she meets the requirements of owning her own brokerage, but she is currently working under another Broker.

Look, it's real simple. She has no clue what she is doing and you shouldn't waste any time trying to train her to be to suck less. I would look for a professional manager and move on.

Remember: cheaper doesn't mean you'll make more money.

Start by going to www.narpm.org to search their directory of managers. These are professionals with additional training and a stricter code of ethics. It's no guarantee but it's a good place to start. You can also search Google and read reviews. Try interviewing at least three managers.

1. Ask how many units they manage and how much experience they have. Feel free to inquire about their staff qualifications if it's a larger organization.

2. Review their management agreement. Make sure it explicitly explains the process for termination if you are unhappy with their services, especially if they violate the terms of your agreement.

3. Understand the fees involved and calculate the total cost for an entire year of management so you can compare the different managers. It may sound nice to pay a 6% management fee but the extra fees can add up to be more than the other company that charges 10% with no additional fees. Fees should be clearly stated in writing, easy to understand, and justifiable. Common fees will include a set-up fee, a leasing fee for each turnover or a lease renewal fee, marking up maintenance, retaining late fees, and more. If you ask the manager to justify a fee and he starts hemming and hawing, move on or require them to remove the fee. Don't be afraid to negotiate, particularly if you have a lot of rentals.

4. Review their lease agreement and addenda. Consider all the things that could go wrong and see if the lease addresses them: unauthorized pets or tenants, early termination, security deposit, lease violations, late rent, eviction, lawn maintenance, parking, etc.

5. Don't just read the lease! Ask the manager to explain their process for dealing with maintenance, late rent, evictions, turnover, etc. If they are professional, they can explain this quickly and easily. If they are VERY professional, they will have their processes in writing as verification that policies are enforced equally and fairly by their entire staff.

6. Ask to speak with some of their current owners and current/former tenants. You can also check their reviews online at Google, Facebook, or Yelp. Just remember: most negative reviews are written by problematic tenants. A tenant complaining online might indicate that the property manager handled them appropriately, so be sure to ask the manager for their side of the story.

7. Look at their marketing strategy. Are they doing everything possible to expose properties to the broadest possible market? Are their listings detailed with good-quality photos? Can they prove how long it takes to rent a vacant property?

This isn't inclusive but should give you a good start. If you have specific questions about property management, I'll be happy to help!

Thanks very very much. I will ask these questions. I'm on the NARPM site, but how can I interpret the search results? There are seemingly hundreds of results for PMs in Nashville. But no commentary or a way to rank or evaluate.

Start on NARPM and make your list of potentials.

Then, google em and see what comes up, narrow it down to a shorter list. And consider what is a tenant and what is a landlord review.

Than I'd say look at what other involvement do they have with other industry specific organizations, if need to keep narrowing it down.

Work it down to a "short list" that is viable to then call and have conversations. Prepare yourself with a specific list of questions to ask each, literally interview them. Compare those answers to make your list of top3, unless 1 really stands out and feels good to move forward with.

If have a top 3, call em back, be honest and say there a top 3 and what can you do next to help find out if they are your choice out of the 3. And what comes from that, your gonna have to make a decision and just move forward with it.

Try to not hold the actions of previous against these new ones, use old experiences as learning points and not fear points. Your better for the journey, wiser more experienced, so be open to a better experience going forward using that experience knowledge.

Michael SmytheBusiness Member

Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit · Member since 2023 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes

2y

Recommend exploring as many sources as possible to get referrals AND cross-reference them to get as much accurate information as possible.

Check out NARPM.com, BP’s Property Manager Finder (BiggerPockets: The Real Estate Investing Social Network), etc.

Also, encourage you to learn from the mistakes of others - by reading posts here on BiggerPockets about owners not having their expectations met by their current Property Management Company.

To avoid going through the same poor experience, keep reading.

Even if someone gives you a referral here, do NOT make the mistake of assuming that the PMC will meet your expectations, just because they met the expectations of the referral source.

In our experience, the #1 mistake owners make when selecting a Property Management Company (PMC) is ASSUMING instead of CONFIRMING.

It's often a case of not doing enough research, as they don't know what they don't know!

Owners mistakenly ASSUME all PMCs offer the exact SAME SERVICES and PERFORM those services EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, so price is the only differentiator – so, they often select the first PMC they call or that calls them back!

So, the first question they usually ask a PMC is about fees - instead of asking about services and HOW those services are executed.

EXAMPLE: PMC states they will handle tenant screening – what does that specifically mean? What documents do they require, what credit scores do they allow, how do they verify previous rental history, etc.? You’d be shocked by how little actual screening many PMC’s do!

This also leads owners to ASSUME simpler is better when it comes to management contracts.

The reality is the opposite - if it's not in writing then the PMC doesn't have to provide the service or can charge extra for it!

A well written management contract should clearly spell out what is expected of both the PMC and the owner, to PROTECT both and avoid misunderstandings. Why do you think purchase contracts are so long and have such small print?

We recommend you get management contracts from several PMCs and compare the services they cover and, more importantly, what they each DO NOT cover.

EDUCATE YOURSELF - yes, it will take time, but will lead to a selection that better meets your expectations & avoids potentially costly surprises!

P.S. If you just hire the cheapest or first PMC you speak with and it turns into a bad experience, please don’t assume ALL PMC’s are bad and start trashing PMC’s in general. Take ownership of your mistake and learn to do the proper due diligence recommended above😊

Logical Property Management4.9453 Reviews

Marcus Auerbach

Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes

2y

Why do you hire agents to do property management? That's like ordering pizza in a Chinese restaurant. While I support hiring a professional PM (not a cheap one), you verbally hired her and she is already doing work for you..

If I were in your situation I would call her, explain the situation, apologize for walking back my agreement, compensate her for what she has done so far and hire a good PM.

OP

Rental Property Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2019 · 144 posts · 72 votes

2y

Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

Why do you hire agents to do property management? That's like ordering pizza in a Chinese restaurant. While I support hiring a professional PM (not a cheap one), you verbally hired her and she is already doing work for you..

If I were in your situation I would call her, explain the situation, apologize for walking back my agreement, compensate her for what she has done so far and hire a good PM.

I'm not sure you understand the situation. Walking back what agreement? The second agent helped me buy the house originally. At this point I have basically wrapped up my account with the first (dedicated professional) property manager who couldn't do her job properly. While I was disappointed with her work, the second agent swooped in and talked a great game about protecting my investment and managing the property efficiently. She helped me buy the house originally. And she wants to position herself to be there when I sell. It started out as a verbal agreement because time was a factor. I trusted her as a professional and a friend. Then she sent me sales and agency contracts, and three weeks have gone by with no updates on the repair work. She has seemingly disappeared. I have no evidence that she has in fact done any work for me. No updates, no receipts. So this is entering ugly territory. So what should I apologize to her about again?..