How about this idea for BP? Please give input.

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How about this idea for BP? Please give input.

Rich Weese
Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

I don't care whether you vote for this thread or not, but please give input. I've now been scammed by 2 members of BP, and know of others that have also been scammed. I've also received some suggestions from Vikram, Tim W and others about starting a "Hall of Shame" or at least a forum where we may air our shaftings and warn others of those jerks, before they become repeat offenders. The jerks would be free to dispute the Facts presented, or hopefully disappear into the night. It might help some BP members avoid losing money they can't afford to lose.
I've had several PMs from others about this same subject. We need to police our own. Please reply in some fashion to let your interest in this be known. Thanks. Rich.

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Vikram C.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y

Instead of publicly stating bad experiences with another member ( which is subject to abuse), we can have a link in the profile where we can list all the other BP members that we have done business with.

Any BP member who wishes to do business with an unknown member can then check to see who all that person has done business with in the past and send a PM request for experience / recommendation and then decide how to proceed.

This will allow us to keep tabs on people without violating anyone's privacy rights or subjecting someone to potential defamation or revenge.

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  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 714 votes
    16y

    First off, I don't think the "PM me and I'll spill the dirt" will work, because it can get you in the same legal trouble if a scammer tricks you into dishing dirt on themselves, now they have a very clear paper trail of you slandering them. Maybe I'm wrong, but when I got ripped off on CL, and wanted to retaliate with a CL posting exposing the crook, my attorney advised against it. When I asked him if it would be OK to send emails to anyone interested in learning more, he advised against that as well. So, that said, I'm personally not 100% confident airing dirty laundry even via email.

    How about this, instead of tarring the scammer's, let's praise those scrupulous folks that we've had the pleasure to do business with! If others could read up on the good business dealings others have had in the community it would impart a sense of confidence and give credibility (or lack there of).

    Just some thoughts.
    Mark

    PS - what is to stop the tarred / feathered scammer from coming back with a new aliases?? It just seems like wasted effort... if someone wants to be a crook, they will. If we find a way to call them out, they'll change up their game.

    eliminate the negative, accentuate the positive!

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  • Marc Freislinger
    Flipper · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 973 posts · 679 votes
    16y

    Mark has a good point about people just comming back with a different name. My worry about the praising of good people would be that it'd be even harder to get your foot in the door. If most people only wanted to do business with someone who comes recomended, how do you get started?

    1Reply
  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 714 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Marc Freislinger:
    Mark has a good point about people just comming back with a different name. My worry about the praising of good people would be that it'd be even harder to get your foot in the door. If most people only wanted to do business with someone who comes recomended, how do you get started?


    encourage people you deal with personally to join the BP fun!!
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  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    Mark,

    Online aliases can be created without a doubt. But when it comes time to sign the deals, a closing agent will require things to be notarized - which means that ID will come out. so I think it would be a bit harder for a scammer to get new agreements signed once exposed.

    Highlighting positives is always good.

    Doing due diligence is always good too; don't assume anything that increases risks beyond those you are willing to take.

    2Reply
  • Eric M.
    Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    I love the idea in general. Very interesting that Josh hasn't commented.

    If it is thread-style with discussion it definitely would degenerate into name calling, etc. And the whole PM thing just defeats the purpose of sharing knowledge and info.

    But obviously many sites operates a "feedback" or reputation style rating system and it could be done here.

    Maybe there could be a Deals Done forum in which people can enter general details of any deal done with a BP member and simply rate the experience 1-5 stars or whatever. The other party has a chance to rebut and rate also and that is that. More details could always be received by PM but the basic gist would be public.

    So under your name when you post, it would say:
    5 Deals Done with BP members
    4.20 Average Rating

    6Reply
  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 714 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    But when it comes time to sign the deals, a closing agent will require things to be notarized - which means that ID will come out. so I think it would be a bit harder for a scammer to get new agreements signed once exposed.

    .


    I agree 100%. My point is simply that those that seek to exploit will always be 1 step ahead. They will see the measures that are in place to stop them, and they will circumvent those measures.

    Getting their real name(s) out there is definitely a start, I just don't think it can stop the problem.

    I think building a network of trusted members is feasible, without imposing hurdles on those just beginning. Personally, I feel that this is a great place with tons of ethical & charitable contributors. I don't expect anyone to trust me without some sort of vetting. However, I don't feel like it is an impossible feat, even in a virtual world.

    ~m

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  • Eric M.
    Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    It is so frustrating because anyone who will take the time to scam someone in a deal will spend the time to figure out how to manipulate any system we create.

    With my idea, it would be pretty easy for 2 scammers or 1 scammer with 2 identities to falsely report several successful deals done with each other to give the appearance of legitimacy.

    This is a tough thing.

    Maybe you just let people air their laundry and take responsibility for what they have to say as Rich said.

    1Reply
  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 714 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Eric Michaels:
    I love the idea in general. Very interesting that Josh hasn't commented.

    If it is thread-style with discussion it definitely would degenerate into name calling, etc. And the whole PM thing just defeats the purpose of sharing knowledge and info.

    But obviously many sites operates a "feedback" or reputation style rating system and it could be done here.

    Maybe there could be a Deals Done forum in which people can enter general details of any deal done with a BP member and simply rate the experience 1-5 stars or whatever. The other party has a chance to rebut and rate also and that is that. More details could always be received by PM but the basic gist would be public.

    So under your name when you post, it would say:
    5 Deals Done with BP members
    4.20 Average Rating


    YES! I like this, reminds me of Yelp.com, both parties get a say... of course the more reputable member will be believed over the one with less stellar reviews!
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  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 714 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Eric Michaels:


    With my idea, it would be pretty easy for 2 scammers or 1 scammer with 2 identities to falsely report several successful deals done with each other to give the appearance of legitimacy.



    True, but 1 bad word from Rich et. al. and... :mrgreen:

    As with yelp, as things grow and more people review, it will be obvious when someone is trying to stuff the ballot box!

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    Please keep in mind too the newbies and those who deal only on a local basis. Make sure that any system does not make the standard to entry so high that BP becomes ineffective. Everyone on BP does not do business with other members and in the event they were to attempt to do any deal, thier past record might not allow them to proceed.

    0Reply
  • Rich Weese
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    16y

    A bunch of good examples. I'm for any method that allows for return and reporting on crooks and scams. Point system, stars or just lay the info out for all to read. Rich

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Member since 2010 · 156 posts · 65 votes
    16y

    I'm all for any of it, doesn't really matter how it happens. Josh could make the names a banner on the website, that would actually be pretty cool.

    I'm trying to figure out how everyone is defining slander, I mean I'm not an attorney, but I have one and I have studied legal issues most of my adult life. While slander is not something I have studied my general knowledge of the laws is that for me to slander someone I must say something that is false that harms that person in some way. Keyword being false as long as the person reporting it can back it up who cares if someone does a little pissing and moaning.

    0Reply
  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    16y

    I'm away at a conference in San Fran, which is why I haven't commented.

    There are a lot of good ideas here, but bottom line, legally, the person posting the comment (if folks are out posting about a person, company, etc) is going to be the one that is liable. Neither BP nor Yelp or any other website is legally responsible for your words - you are. There have been countless cases that have upheld this.

    That said, I don't want this place to get overrun with negative comments, NOR do I want it to be a place where the scumbags prey on others . . .

    So, what is the solution? It is a dilemma for us and many other websites....

    First, I'd say that it is your responsibility here or any other site or in real life to watch your back. Doing your due diligence on someone is always the best way to protect yourself.

    Is there something that we can do on this site? I've talked with some people about the possibility of verifying members to point out those who are legit, but it is not cheap or fast to do that.

    We've removed members that we've determined have done unscrupulous things, but again, it is not an easy process. Making the determination that someone is bad is not easy.

    So, I'll again step back and watch as you guys discuss. I do think that you're raising some very good points and will jump in again soon.

    Keep up the dialogue, and perhaps you'll raise an idea that works . . . I hope so.

    Until then, ALWAYS do your due diligence, be methodical, and get references.

    BTW - Don't forget that you can request references of your colleagues here on BP, and those references will show on your profile. I don't see enough of you guys using the functionality; it is a very good way to show your credibility.

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  • Rich Weese
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    16y

    I'm glad that Josh has substantiated that words belong to the person that utters them. That is the way it should be. I still think we, as BP members, can come up with a fair way to vet potential wolves on here.
    We've come up with some great ideas, now lets' fine tune this. One of you word specialists, lay it out clearly and let us fine tune it. This can help clean up a dirty area on our site. I'll support fully ANY method of vetting. Rich.

    2Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    IMO, slander becomes an actionable cause when something is made known or public that is not true and a mfinancial damage arisies from that information. If you call someone a liar and a cheat, was he damaged from that, is the question. Here, seems to me that having false information distributed to those who plan of doing business with and then not getting that business might qualify, seems it definetly would if you had done business and then it stops, at least that might be the claim.

    As Josh said we are responsible for what we put out. Interesting that you invetigated the cost of verification of members Josh. Don't know how deeply such an investigation would go or the cost, but maybe those members that thought a preferred status on here was valuable enough, they would pay for such an investigation. The "Solid Gold Members" whatever.

    Is this line of thinking almost like big brother trying to protect us from ourselves? Are we not responsible for our own actions, who we deal with? I think this can go too far too, as Rich said, just put it out there. But, of course, what ever the community would want, I'd support as well.

    0Reply
  • Raymond B.
    FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 357 votes
    16y

    I'm a member at: [LINK REMOVED]
    At that site, they have a: For sale/trade/want to purchase forum. (PC parts and related items)

    In that forum, they have a section for scammers. They are identified by their "handle" and full name, address, and how they scammed someone.

    That site, and many others, use this:
    [LINK REMOVED]
    At this site you rate people and the trade with a positive, neutral, or negative.

    Ray in Ct

    1Reply
  • Rich Weese
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    16y

    Hi Ray- Hope all is well. How does the scammer section seem to work on other site? I do think it would be beneficial here. Rich

    0Reply
  • Mark Robinson
    Real Estate Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2010 · 9 posts · 5 votes
    16y

    As someone new to RE investing and BP but not RE in general, I think accenting the positive and identifying good business dealings like Mark suggested would also help in another area. It would help someone like me identify someone I could do my first deal(s) with and know that while I still need to do my own due diligence, I am less likely to get sandbagged before I have enough experience to know better. It also may help educate us newbies by seeing real-life examples where we can possibly talk to the participants.
    That said, I also would like to know what possible traps can be laid for us so a list of the scams and problems with facts would be very educational.
    In the end, we all are responsible for our actions and I have seen many times where a buyer of a SFH did not want to a home inspection despite my rather blunt pleas.
    Mark

    2Reply
  • Raymond B.
    FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 357 votes
    16y

    Hi Rich,
    All is well, I'm involved in a rehab as an investor.
    Concerning selling, buying and trading PC parts.
    I did about 300 transactions, and was NOT scammed.
    Most of the transactions were in the $20-$50 range, but I did some that were in the $200-$400 range.
    I realize that real estate transactions are much bigger numbers involving $$$.
    I used the [LINK REMOVED] ratings as a guide in my transactions.
    At [LINK REMOVED] I have 266 transactions, with 265 being positive, one neutral. That one neutral should be a positive, the poster made a mistake.

    Here is a link to my ratings at [LINKS REMOVED]

    Ray in Ct.

    0Reply
  • Rich Weese
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    16y

    Thanks Ray. Glad to hear the news.

    On other matter- If anyone is smart enuff to put a well written proposal together for our Hall of Shame, but afraid to be the one to post it, PM it to me. I'll keep your identity out of it and post it as my own. Then posters may e-mail tweaks and concerns before it becomes a possible Forum to use here.
    This would be a step forward and of course would need to be accepted by Josh. Anyone ? Lets' step forward. Rich

    0Reply
  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    16y

    That Heatware model is interesting, Ray. I wonder how such a system could be applied here on BP?

    Does it make sense to do? Do you just plus your friends and minus your enemies?

    Any thoughts on it from the gang?

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  • Andrew R
    Real Estate Investor · CA · Member since 2009 · 138 posts · 19 votes
    16y

    Joshua, not sure if you have heard of Itrader - its a plugin for other forum based software that leaves reviews on a user's profile from other users in a transaction.
    Now I'm not sure what software your running but you could implement something of that nature with your site, and then they would get a percentage example.
    AndrewR - 99% (28)
    99% review of how good the person is
    28 - number of reviews etc.

    just a thought though :)

    3Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    Some good points in the above, but they only cover the cases where the party reporting was wronged. I happen to be aware of a party doing wrong, but I was not harmed by that party - and I am happy to disclose this to all who ask (as many members have already asked and seen the public evidence).

    So, with those trader and heat models, only the parties to the transactions can offer feedback - you would end up excluding the type of info that I have, which although it is third party it is very much recorded in public records and should be part of anybody's due diligence regarding that party who has done wrong.

    I realize it might be too challenging to work this in ...

    2Reply
  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 714 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    Some good points in the above, but they only cover the cases where the party reporting was wronged. I happen to be aware of a party doing wrong, but I was not harmed by that party - and I am happy to disclose this to all who ask (as many members have already asked and seen the public evidence).

    So, with those trader and heat models, only the parties to the transactions can offer feedback - you would end up excluding the type of info that I have, which although it is third party it is very much recorded in public records and should be part of anybody's due diligence regarding that party who has done wrong.

    I realize it might be too challenging to work this in ...


    This is why I like the yelp model. I can review a store based facts that I have discovered. IE - if the owner of Joe's Pizza Shop rapes a young girl and it is on the front page of the paper, I can go to yelp, look up Joe's Pizza Shop, and put a review that reads "Looks like joe the owner just got arrested for rape, I don't think my girls will be ordering a pie anytime soon."
    disclaimer: I made the above situation up, sorry if there is a real Joe's Pizza Shop. Oh, and I don't have any kids either.

    http://www.yelp.com
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  • Vikram C.
    Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Mark, I like your idea of posting reviews. It solves the issue raised by Steve. Does Yelp have a system to report false statements and remove them?

    2Reply
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