Why Class D/Section 8 returns are not as good in Real Life vs on Paper - Real example

Why Class D/Section 8 returns are not as good in Real Life vs on Paper - Real example

Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I often share this story with potential clients, investors, and those looking to start their real estate investment journey. My goal is simple: to illustrate why investing in lower-priced neighborhoods can be riskier and less rewarding than it seems.

I had a client who owned five properties in these areas, all rented through Section 8. He purchased them about seven years ago for an average of $80,000 each. Since they needed renovations, he invested roughly $30,000 per property to make them rent-ready—bringing his total investment to $110,000 per unit.

Once rented, he quickly encountered issues: non-payment, eviction filings, constant repairs, and tenant-related damages. Over seven years, he barely turned a profit. By the time he covered eviction costs, lost rental income, and re-renovated after tenant turnovers, any potential gains were erased.

Seven years later, his properties had appreciated to about $130,000 each—a 62% increase on paper. Sounds good, right?

Not exactly.

Before listing each property, he had to invest another $15,000–$30,000 just to refresh them for sale. Despite holding them for seven years without making any real profit, his total investment per property had now ballooned to roughly $140,000. And that’s before factoring in selling costs—commissions, taxes, and closing expenses. When the numbers were tallied, he had actually lost about $10,000–$20,000 per property.

Here’s the kicker: Had he simply bought the properties for $80,000, left them vacant for seven years, and only paid taxes and insurance (about $1,500 per year per property), his all-in cost would’ve been around $90,500. Even after spending $15,000 on a basic refresh, he could have sold for $130,000—without the headaches of evictions, repairs, and property management. And yet, after all expenses, he would have barely made a few thousand dollars.

So, despite the 62% appreciation, he still lost money. And that’s not even accounting for the countless hours spent managing the properties. He was burned out.

The Problem is two fold:

  1. Cash Flow on Paper ≠ Real Cash Flow
    Many investors assume rental income will flow smoothly, but that’s rarely the case in high-risk areas. In Philadelphia, for example, landlords cannot deny a Section 8 tenant based on credit score—only for violent crimes or drug offenses. That means even applicants with a 400 credit score may qualify, increasing the risk of evictions, non-payment, and high maintenance costs. The projected returns often don’t materialize in real life.
  2. Appreciation Is Misleading in Low-Value Markets
    While values in these areas do rise, the percentage gains are deceiving due to low starting values. So even a whopping 62% increase is only 50k of a 80k property. 
  3. What baffles me most is how easily people jump into these investments in unfamiliar neighborhoods - especially out of state! It’s like choosing to invest in a friend’s startup instead of the S&P 500—just because the startup promises big returns at a lower entry point. The logic doesn’t hold up...


Let’s compare this with another investor who took a different approach.

Seven years ago, Investor X purchased a duplex in a stronger market for $300,000. They invested $50,000 in cosmetic renovations, bringing their total investment to $350,000. From the start, they cash-flowed around $500/month, had minimal tenant issues, and turned a profit year after year with little management hassle. Keep in mind rents also went up and opportunities to refinance were also available - elevating that figure. 

Today, that duplex is worth $475,000–$500,000. If they sell, they barely need to renovate because the demand is high for high quality RE. Their appreciation profit alone is nearly $100,000, and that’s not even counting rental income earned over the years. With 100k there's plenty left over after commissions and closing costs are paid.

Don’t chase high cash flow and "too good to be true" returns. If an investment looks too good to be true, it probably is. And please stop listening to gurus and paying them. it is their job to "sell" you something, not build a relationship with you. Its a lot harder to sell a $15,000 course that's titled: Invest in high quality assets and build solid equity vs "Passive income while you sleep - how section 8 helped me build a $100k/m portfolio"

Good luck!

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Investor · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
1y

I have been preaching this on BP for years. Fewer but better properties. Unfortunately, many new investors drool over how many crapboxes they can buy and brag to their friends about owning. After ignoring advice, their next post is often, “How do I evict my non paying tenant?” Or the always popular, “My tenant moved out and stole my washer, dryer, water heater and light fixtures!!!”

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  • Financial Advisor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2021 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Greg Scott:

    @Brian Bisdorf

    It sounds like you have already decided you want to go the Section 8 route.  In your original post, you asked whether or not Section 8 was a good idea. I pointed you here, where people with decades of experience are telling you there are some significant downsides.

    In your other post, you said you were a flipper and this would be your first LTR.  Many of the people on this thread specialize in LTRs.  What sort of due diligence do you think you will be able to conduct on the prospective tenant that these investors have not done?


     Greg, I really appreciated you pointing me to this thread it was a great resource. Thank you for that. I've spent a great deal of time speaking with many investors in different markets ranging from state to state (but not in my own in TX) about voucher tenants. The common denominator I have heard was a lack of proper DD. I wasn't hoping for my responses to be read as an indicator of making a decision to invest section 8 or not, or stating that I have a more thorough DD process than someone with more experience. 

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Brian Bisdorf Of course can conduct your own diligence. Sure, some voucher recipients game the system (years ago, I had a tenant who knew exactly how many hours she could work and how much income she could earn to remain on the program). She was certainly able to hold employment. Most on the other hand are not responsible individuals, are not educated, do not work  which means they are going to be spending most of their time home causing additional wear and tear. The houses get beat up far more than say a 1 bedroom apartment because they are larger households occupying them and in many instances additional family members not on the voucher live with them as well without the landlords knowledge.  This is the reality of the lifestyle of the typical tenant. 

    The question you have to answer is why resort to section 8 or even consider section 8? Many view section 8 as a security blanket because of the government subsidized rent and turn to the program because the neighborhood tenant base is deemed even riskier. If that's the category you fall within (especially if this was intended to be a flip), there is a real estate problem that must first be recognized and dealt with. Furthermore, if this is not a property where meaningful appreciation is expected in the near future I would recommend selling. Even if you aren't achieving the return you anticipated.  Renting is just pushing an issue down the road and can very well become a more costly mistake. 

  • Member since 2024 · 3 posts · 5 votes
    1y

    20+ yrs. ago we avoided Section 8, primarily due to the disparity in rents from private that Section 8 Housing rents appeared to be nearly 20% less than private rents. However, around 2016 that changed for us in DFW when we experimented with Section 8 for the first time and found that we were receiving 20% more from Section 8 than private rents. We converted all of our SFR to section 8 thereafter. Coincidentally, now that we are selling, we have found several investors particularly interested in primarily leased Section 8 properties. We found that the quality of private tenant v. Section 8 tenant was roughly comparable in our experience. We have had an equal amount of rotten apples in both tenant pools. Time will tell as always when we reflect back in the future if this trend continues. We believe that you set your strategy early on during acquisition, and as such, were primarily motivated by cash-on-cash returns and the strategy, with all of its pitfalls, did result in very reasonable IRR over the many years we have held.

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Brian Bisdorf It's always important to vet tenants but as a general rule of thumb, the better situated the real estate, the better quality of tenant you can attract. This is something that's rarely represented correctly in most spreadsheets and has a significant impact on operational costs. I find this to be a leading reason why better situated real estate is often overlooked by investors who are chasing cash flow. Second only to fixed costs of operation which disproportionately impact the lower cost properties often leased to subsidized tenants (also rarely represented correctly on spreadsheets pre-purchase).


     I had someone tell me that there are going to get hard working 650+ credit score applicants in a Class D neighborhood in philly because they have class A finishes. This was a big LOL moment. 

    The best metric I have used is - if I wouldnt live there, the type of tenant I want wouldnt live there either. 

    The expectation that a solid tenant would want to rent a property in an unsafe and dirty area is a delusion. It is the same thing as trying to promote a fitness class at a Checkers. 

    This is why what Stuart mentioned about the positioning of Real Estate is so important and why you and everyone have heard the phrase: "Location, location, location" 

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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Brian Bisdorf:
    Quote from @Greg Scott:

    @Brian Bisdorf

    It sounds like you have already decided you want to go the Section 8 route.  In your original post, you asked whether or not Section 8 was a good idea. I pointed you here, where people with decades of experience are telling you there are some significant downsides.

    In your other post, you said you were a flipper and this would be your first LTR.  Many of the people on this thread specialize in LTRs.  What sort of due diligence do you think you will be able to conduct on the prospective tenant that these investors have not done?


     Greg, I really appreciated you pointing me to this thread it was a great resource. Thank you for that. I've spent a great deal of time speaking with many investors in different markets ranging from state to state (but not in my own in TX) about voucher tenants. The common denominator I have heard was a lack of proper DD. I wasn't hoping for my responses to be read as an indicator of making a decision to invest section 8 or not, or stating that I have a more thorough DD process than someone with more experience. 


     I think that is a really easy "out" for people to tell you that its because of DD. Screening is part of it. And even so in a class A rental. 

    You would be surprised by how much junk landlords have to filter through even in the best of the best areas. 

    Here is how it typically goes for me. I have properties in Class B-A minus neighborhoods.

    Lets say i have 50 prospects over the course of 45 days. 

    40 of them will be an absolute waste of time

    5 might really like the property but are not the best qualified

    3 might be really qualified but might be looking for something else with some other ammenties

    2 will be solid candidates.

    This will be a far less favorable result In an area that is pushed by a lot of gurus/wholesalers.

    I tried to rent one of these buildings for a developer. it was brand new construction, really well done.

    One after another is was voucher applicants who had criminal records, you had no idea who was actually going to be living there, some were high out of their mind and/or drunk, average credit score was 500, consistent late payments, eviction records, etc.

    By some miracle I rented one place out to 2 young girls looking to save some money. But i had another 8 units sitting vacant for months. The developer decided to do section 8 which I was against so I declined the listings. 

    The amount of headache, waste of time, no shows, incompetency I had to deal with was unbearable. This is not uncommon. Many landlords get burnt out by this process that after many months of sitting vacant they take who they can get with an ounce of decency but unfortunately pay the price later...

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    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Alan Asriants:
      Quote from @Brian Bisdorf:
      Quote from @Greg Scott:

      @Brian Bisdorf

      It sounds like you have already decided you want to go the Section 8 route.  In your original post, you asked whether or not Section 8 was a good idea. I pointed you here, where people with decades of experience are telling you there are some significant downsides.

      In your other post, you said you were a flipper and this would be your first LTR.  Many of the people on this thread specialize in LTRs.  What sort of due diligence do you think you will be able to conduct on the prospective tenant that these investors have not done?


       Greg, I really appreciated you pointing me to this thread it was a great resource. Thank you for that. I've spent a great deal of time speaking with many investors in different markets ranging from state to state (but not in my own in TX) about voucher tenants. The common denominator I have heard was a lack of proper DD. I wasn't hoping for my responses to be read as an indicator of making a decision to invest section 8 or not, or stating that I have a more thorough DD process than someone with more experience. 


       I think that is a really easy "out" for people to tell you that its because of DD. Screening is part of it. And even so in a class A rental. 

      You would be surprised by how much junk landlords have to filter through even in the best of the best areas. 

      Here is how it typically goes for me. I have properties in Class B-A minus neighborhoods.

      Lets say i have 50 prospects over the course of 45 days. 

      40 of them will be an absolute waste of time

      5 might really like the property but are not the best qualified

      3 might be really qualified but might be looking for something else with some other ammenties

      2 will be solid candidates.

      This will be a far less favorable result In an area that is pushed by a lot of gurus/wholesalers.

      I tried to rent one of these buildings for a developer. it was brand new construction, really well done.

      One after another is was voucher applicants who had criminal records, you had no idea who was actually going to be living there, some were high out of their mind and/or drunk, average credit score was 500, consistent late payments, eviction records, etc.

      By some miracle I rented one place out to 2 young girls looking to save some money. But i had another 8 units sitting vacant for months. The developer decided to do section 8 which I was against so I declined the listings. 

      The amount of headache, waste of time, no shows, incompetency I had to deal with was unbearable. This is not uncommon. Many landlords get burnt out by this process that after many months of sitting vacant they take who they can get with an ounce of decency but unfortunately pay the price later...


       Yeah. You wouldn't be a very good landlord from what I can gather from your responses. LOL

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    1y

    @Brian Bisdorf  @Richard Misdom

    With all the chaos going on in Washington DC, here is something else to consider before jumping into or continuing with Section 8.

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/52/topics/1233196-will-...

  • Austin WolffPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2024 · 101 posts · 134 votes
    1y

    What about what this previous BP podcast guest has to say about Section 8? I don't do Section 8 but my summary of the interview was that this investor made his rental an A-class property (I don't remember what type of neighborhood it was in) to attract an "A-class" Section 8 tenant.

    BiggerPockets
    • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
      OP
      Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Austin Wolff:

      What about what this previous BP podcast guest has to say about Section 8? I don't do Section 8 but my summary of the interview was that this investor made his rental an A-class property (I don't remember what type of neighborhood it was in) to attract an "A-class" Section 8 tenant.


       Class A section 8 tenants exist, but its needle in a haystack. for one property/unit its fine but to find it for many units will be a challenge. Also if you're in an A/B class area, why the need to go for Section 8? You have options in your tenant pool already. Its possible you can squeeze a little more from the government for rent but I think that its just so much more effort, and you're looking for something that is already really hard to find. 

      You need to get licensing, extra inspections, work with leases on PHA terms, etc and on top of that you want to find a super star section 8 tenant. Seems like more of a headache than finding a decent tenant in your area... 

      Just to give you perspective. In my class B rentals I have 50 contact for a listing. 45 were not qualified, 3 were decent, 1 backed out, and 1 was a good applicant. And this is considered a healthy market. For that section 8 search your number will be even less favorable

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  • Derek RobinsonPro Member
    Real Estate Coach · Asheville, NC · Member since 2016 · 176 posts · 172 votes
    1y

    I used to own 3 Section 8 rentals in the Spartanburg, SC area.  The areas were not the best, but I had professional management and never had any trouble.  Two of them came with Section 8 tenants when I purchased them.  My plan was to increase rents to get the tenants to leave, do a lite rehab, and re-rent.  Well the rent increase was mostly paid by the government so the tenants never left.  I think they only had to pay $50/month while the government covered $500-$600.  We rarely had maintenance requests, tenants paid on time, and the annual inspections showed average wear and tear.  I pivoted at the time to mobile home parks and sold all three at a profit.  So, made money monthly and sold at a profit.  Super hands off with a great manager.  Tenants were mostly young adults with multiple kids.  One thing I did spend a lot of time on was driving the neighborhoods before I purchased.  You could drive down one block with run down houses, people hanging out in the yard during the day, dogs chained up in the front yard, etc.  Then the next block over would have clean houses, sense of ownership, etc.

    • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
      OP
      Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Derek Robinson:

      I used to own 3 Section 8 rentals in the Spartanburg, SC area.  The areas were not the best, but I had professional management and never had any trouble.  Two of them came with Section 8 tenants when I purchased them.  My plan was to increase rents to get the tenants to leave, do a lite rehab, and re-rent.  Well the rent increase was mostly paid by the government so the tenants never left.  I think they only had to pay $50/month while the government covered $500-$600.  We rarely had maintenance requests, tenants paid on time, and the annual inspections showed average wear and tear.  I pivoted at the time to mobile home parks and sold all three at a profit.  So, made money monthly and sold at a profit.  Super hands off with a great manager.  Tenants were mostly young adults with multiple kids.  One thing I did spend a lot of time on was driving the neighborhoods before I purchased.  You could drive down one block with run down houses, people hanging out in the yard during the day, dogs chained up in the front yard, etc.  Then the next block over would have clean houses, sense of ownership, etc.


      If you were making decent money why did you sell? What was your ROI on sale?

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    • Derek RobinsonPro Member
      Real Estate Coach · Asheville, NC · Member since 2016 · 176 posts · 172 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Alan Asriants:
      Quote from @Derek Robinson:

      I used to own 3 Section 8 rentals in the Spartanburg, SC area.  The areas were not the best, but I had professional management and never had any trouble.  Two of them came with Section 8 tenants when I purchased them.  My plan was to increase rents to get the tenants to leave, do a lite rehab, and re-rent.  Well the rent increase was mostly paid by the government so the tenants never left.  I think they only had to pay $50/month while the government covered $500-$600.  We rarely had maintenance requests, tenants paid on time, and the annual inspections showed average wear and tear.  I pivoted at the time to mobile home parks and sold all three at a profit.  So, made money monthly and sold at a profit.  Super hands off with a great manager.  Tenants were mostly young adults with multiple kids.  One thing I did spend a lot of time on was driving the neighborhoods before I purchased.  You could drive down one block with run down houses, people hanging out in the yard during the day, dogs chained up in the front yard, etc.  Then the next block over would have clean houses, sense of ownership, etc.


      If you were making decent money why did you sell? What was your ROI on sale?

      As stated, I was pivoting to mobile home parks, so I sold and put the profits into that.  I don't remember specific numbers, but I bought them for 28k to 45k cash, rented for $450 to $550, and sold for around $55k each. Had them for around 3 years.

      My main point was I had good management in place, tenants only had to come up with around 10% of the total rent, never had any issues with tenants, and they appreciated.  I believe you can do well with these properties if you know what you are doing.

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Derek Robinson:
      Quote from @Alan Asriants:
      Quote from @Derek Robinson:

      I used to own 3 Section 8 rentals in the Spartanburg, SC area.  The areas were not the best, but I had professional management and never had any trouble.  Two of them came with Section 8 tenants when I purchased them.  My plan was to increase rents to get the tenants to leave, do a lite rehab, and re-rent.  Well the rent increase was mostly paid by the government so the tenants never left.  I think they only had to pay $50/month while the government covered $500-$600.  We rarely had maintenance requests, tenants paid on time, and the annual inspections showed average wear and tear.  I pivoted at the time to mobile home parks and sold all three at a profit.  So, made money monthly and sold at a profit.  Super hands off with a great manager.  Tenants were mostly young adults with multiple kids.  One thing I did spend a lot of time on was driving the neighborhoods before I purchased.  You could drive down one block with run down houses, people hanging out in the yard during the day, dogs chained up in the front yard, etc.  Then the next block over would have clean houses, sense of ownership, etc.


      If you were making decent money why did you sell? What was your ROI on sale?

      As stated, I was pivoting to mobile home parks, so I sold and put the profits into that.  I don't remember specific numbers, but I bought them for 28k to 45k cash, rented for $450 to $550, and sold for around $55k each. Had them for around 3 years.

      My main point was I had good management in place, tenants only had to come up with around 10% of the total rent, never had any issues with tenants, and they appreciated.  I believe you can do well with these properties if you know what you are doing.


      the key in that response is you paid cash.. that is very important to note.
  • Investor · Long Island · Member since 2023 · 36 posts · 19 votes
    1y

    Many good points here! 

  • Member since 2025 · 7 posts · 8 votes
    1y

    This could be true for a not so savvy investor, an emotional investor that looks at dollar signs and not common sense. 

    Over 30 years I have amassed close to 400 properties all rented through section 8. Rarely, and I mean rarely do I have tenants not pay their share (for the most part they owe $100-$200 per month for their portion at the max). 

    it's all about how you screen your tenants, don't get emotionally attached and agree when you finally get someone with a voucher that wants to rent. If you screen correctly many of these issues won't happen.

    We make a great deal of net cash flow even after expenses/PM/T&I. It gives me the freedom to do what I want when I want, everybody's investment strategy is different as it relates to the individual. 

    We can take your same example on that $300k home with rent n it backed by the government - tenant one day says I don't want to pay, now you're out a hefty mortgage. The appreciation is better on the more expensive home no doubt but as I mentioned everybody's investment goals are different. 

    What you might think isn't good, many people have found massive success in. 

    • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
      OP
      Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ty Canal:

      This could be true for a not so savvy investor, an emotional investor that looks at dollar signs and not common sense. 

      Over 30 years I have amassed close to 400 properties all rented through section 8. Rarely, and I mean rarely do I have tenants not pay their share (for the most part they owe $100-$200 per month for their portion at the max). 

      it's all about how you screen your tenants, don't get emotionally attached and agree when you finally get someone with a voucher that wants to rent. If you screen correctly many of these issues won't happen.

      We make a great deal of net cash flow even after expenses/PM/T&I. It gives me the freedom to do what I want when I want, everybody's investment strategy is different as it relates to the individual. 

      We can take your same example on that $300k home with rent n it backed by the government - tenant one day says I don't want to pay, now you're out a hefty mortgage. The appreciation is better on the more expensive home no doubt but as I mentioned everybody's investment goals are different. 

      What you might think isn't good, many people have found massive success in. 


       I think class A/B investing would be more about making a calculated and risk averse financial decision. 

      Why do most people spend $15k on a course on Section 8 investing and those who invest in A/B real estate don't sign up for such stupidity. 

      Emotions. Class D investment is literally someone ONLY looking at the numbers and not taking in other important aspects of the investment that are not financially related.

      The savvy investor understands the value of location, the value of high quality real estate and does not put himself into a position of increased risk. 

      There is a reason why credit scores exist. Default rates get higher and higher as you go down in score. Why would you risk your money ? Thats convincing yourself that the numbers on paper will play out in real life. this is when you get burned.  

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    • Member since 2025 · 7 posts · 8 votes
      1y

      @Alan Asriants can't say you're wrong here - original post may become misleading. I've found massive success in these class C/D areas. One thing I will say is if you want this to be successful you need to scale at large, owning 2-4 you have a much higher chance at getting burned. 

      I'm not sure where you're going with the courses, I'll never spend money on something I can learn myself, we live in a new age where everything you need is at your fingertips. 

      I believe it's all about personality, when I first got into this all I wanted was to achieve financial freedom (no 9-5) and it got me there. C/D neighborhoods are great for replacing an income but it won't build you  that net worth compared to A/B investing. 

      Not sure where credit is relevant in this situation, 90% of my tenants have good credit. It's just an added bonus of security for me even though in reality if most of them never pay their share the business will still operate fine. 

      you make good points - nothing I can really dispute, I think your original post may be misleading, it's coming across as something that's not achievable - when it should come across as A/B is better in the long term. 

    • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
      OP
      Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ty Canal:

      @Alan Asriants can't say you're wrong here - original post may become misleading. I've found massive success in these class C/D areas. One thing I will say is if you want this to be successful you need to scale at large, owning 2-4 you have a much higher chance at getting burned. 

      I'm not sure where you're going with the courses, I'll never spend money on something I can learn myself, we live in a new age where everything you need is at your fingertips. 

      I believe it's all about personality, when I first got into this all I wanted was to achieve financial freedom (no 9-5) and it got me there. C/D neighborhoods are great for replacing an income but it won't build you  that net worth compared to A/B investing. 

      Not sure where credit is relevant in this situation, 90% of my tenants have good credit. It's just an added bonus of security for me even though in reality if most of them never pay their share the business will still operate fine. 

      you make good points - nothing I can really dispute, I think your original post may be misleading, it's coming across as something that's not achievable - when it should come across as A/B is better in the long term. 

       By no means do i think that you can't generate "success"

      I'm very sure you could churn out good returns. But operating in these classes in not really investing its more like starting up a business. Businesses provide great cash flow but are always tough to sell and usually valuations are low. Meaning most dont sell, they just retire. 

      The concept is similar here. Yes you get more cash flow, but you're usually investing way more of your time. My understanding of investment and passive income is to create a model that allows you to invest your money into a safe asset, that generates some kind of income, with little to no effort and it grows in great value overtime. 

      This is what investing is about. Your money works for you, not you working for money.

      Sure, you need to make sure your property is in great shape, you find the right tenants, etc.

      I have managed 20+ units in Class A/B areas and 20+ units in Class C/D areas and I have spent more time on the Class C/D area properties in 3 days than I did on the Class A/B areas in one month.

      Usually calls related to class A/B were once in a while: water heater replacement, minor water leaks after very heavy rain storm, only really "emergency" situations. 

      For the other class of RE, it was chasing down rent, arguing about who is responsible for throwing down things into a toilet that shouldn't be there, water bill delinquencies, disputing damages that were clearly tenants fault etc. And low and behold after some time, the owners stopped caring about fixing things because all of these issues screwed up their returns. Then things start to spiral downhill. Deferred maintenance, angry phone calls, and so on. Trust me, if I was the owner, I wouldnt want to keep fixing a problem that wasn't mine. And "duct tape" fixing like Lucas mentions don't last long and eat your cash flow.

      So its not that you can't have success its that you put yourself in a different position. One is starting up a tough business and the other is investing. most people don't keep that business model open for long. As you can see Mark is repositioning. 

      My business is real estate sales, I invest in real estate. 

      credit is def relevant... avg scores in lower tier areas will be lower, that is just a fact. 

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    • Member since 2025 · 7 posts · 8 votes
      1y

      @Alan Asriants this is very well said - definitely more of running a business then true real estate investing.

      Can't disagree with that - Maybe if someone brings up class C/D properties it would be more wise to hammer that point - As someone who is in this space reading this thread (and many others on this topic) the general outlook is negative and seems like it's impossible

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 69 posts · 28 votes
    1y

    Not all section 8 properties are class D. Renting to Section 8 tenants and buying and class D properties are two different things, the title of the post makes it seem like they are the same. There are many people with A,B, and C class properties having success renting them to tenants with a Section 8 voucher. I agree that the on paper returns of class D investing look good but don't take in to account all aspects of investing in this asset class. However there is a demand for housing at all income levels. There are market cycles where people living in Class B or C areas downgrade and look for something less expensive. And there are investors who only buy class D properties. Many of these investors rent to private paying tenants just as much or even more of the time than to tenants with a voucher. In the example provided in the original post it's sounds like the investor overpaid for the houses and then under rehabbed the 5 properties. Resulting in having to do the same cosmetic update again 7 years later in order to sell. This investor would probably have been better offer spending 80k on a property in worse condition but in a better area and doing a full rehab initially. 

  • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
    1y

    Hello!

    I specialize in the D/F markets and have been for 15 years.

    Most people who lose money on Class D/F properties are usually just bad landlords. 

    They don't know how to work the contractors, the tenants, and the areas. 

    90% of my properties are class D/F and I make great money. Especially on S8. 

    I rent the rest of my A, B, and C properties on S8 as well. 

    Most people just blame the area, the people, and whatever BS reason and refuse to accept they suck at landlording. 

    It is a skill like anything else.

    Hopefully this thread doesn't discourage anyone from buying D/F properties. 

    As one man's trash is another man's gold. As long as you know how to do it properly.

    Cause I could do an entire article on why I hate Class B and Above properties. LOL. 

    Thanks for reading. 

    L. Thomas





  • Member since 2023 · 1 post · 1 vote
    1y

    Richard Misdom's post reflects an investor who did well enough with lower-end neighborhoods and tenants. Perhaps so have others, but they aren't motivated to take time to post about good lower-priced SFRs. Often a bad experience motivates us to warn off others, and rightly so. 

    My direct experience is limited as a rental owner, but I have several years comparing both types. Certainly my one middle-class SFR didn't lose money, and the middle-class tenant was fine. But the mortgage debt ate up half the rental payment ($1650, even at 3.15% on the $142,000 mortgage, netting me around $800 a month. I also own a low-end SFR for $40,000 in 2025 value, in a working-class market in Central Illinois, that also nets $800 a month, because it's paid in full. That's around 20% IRR ($8,000 income/$40,000 value), generally better than the S&P 500 long term since 1950 for example.

     I've also seen working-class tenants who held down their jobs for decades, and paid on time for decades. That said, many working-class employees come and go like the wind, which is what the last month's rent and security covers. 

      Many working-class employees value a decent rent payment in an OK place, with responsive landlord who fixes things, and will try to hang on to it, by paying up. For those of us who are 

    (A) starting out with little capital, and 

    (B) who don't want high mortgage balances; and 

    (C) like paid-for real estate, 

    then 10%, 15%, or 18% on a paid-for SFR is working just fine for me, as reported similarly by Richard Misdom. [And all the better if gentrification does take over the values later on, even though many years down the line. A relative of mine went from $260,000 to $1.1 million in central Miami over 20 years on what had been not even considered up-and-coming when she bought, but was "Why in the world would you want to buy or live there?" (Spring Gardens, bordering Overtown)]

    On the cheap home with no mortgage, with the $800 rent, on top of the last month's rent and security deposit, I'm saving enough of that IRR to cover the water heater, fridge, stove, washer, dryer, and light fixtures, should they disappear. Maybe even regularly, which I don't expect.

    It's not so cut and dry, just to say: Avoid the U.S. working class. Always. Especially, considering debt service on middle class stuff and on up. Here's a side note, that rich guy who sank with the Titanic, and whose NYC mansion is now a luxury hotel (I can't remember the hotel's name, but I ate in his very fine, old study at a convention dinner once): Well, he owned a lot of working-class buildings. Maybe those were paid in full? He wasn't running a charity. 

  • Member since 2021 · 124 posts · 87 votes
    1y

    You don’t make money on section 8 properties by rental value. You get massive tax credits for participating the affordable housing sector. The beauty is you don’t need to have 100% of your multi-dwelling unit to get this benefit. Depends on the state and city but they usually only require a certain % to participate and they don’t care how you run other portions of the property. Also you get massive credits + funds when you develop these houses. It isn’t making money because you are treating a different beast in a tame way. Section 8 / affordable housing is not something for RE newbie to touch. The people, law, and property are all challenging. 

    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Laura Winters:

      You don’t make money on section 8 properties by rental value. You get massive tax credits for participating the affordable housing sector. The beauty is you don’t need to have 100% of your multi-dwelling unit to get this benefit. Depends on the state and city but they usually only require a certain % to participate and they don’t care how you run other portions of the property. Also you get massive credits + funds when you develop these houses. It isn’t making money because you are treating a different beast in a tame way. Section 8 / affordable housing is not something for RE newbie to touch. The people, law, and property are all challenging. 

       Well that's mostly only for commercial properties. The rest make money cause of normal landlord reasons. Tenants move in. Don't move out. And they let you increase the rent every year without having to figure out if the tenant can afford it. They can cause its government funded. You just have to do the investment right.  

    • Joe S.Pro Member
      Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Lucas Thomas:
      Quote from @Laura Winters:

      You don’t make money on section 8 properties by rental value. You get massive tax credits for participating the affordable housing sector. The beauty is you don’t need to have 100% of your multi-dwelling unit to get this benefit. Depends on the state and city but they usually only require a certain % to participate and they don’t care how you run other portions of the property. Also you get massive credits + funds when you develop these houses. It isn’t making money because you are treating a different beast in a tame way. Section 8 / affordable housing is not something for RE newbie to touch. The people, law, and property are all challenging. 

       Well that's mostly only for commercial properties. The rest make money cause of normal landlord reasons. Tenants move in. Don't move out. And they let you increase the rent every year without having to figure out if the tenant can afford it. They can cause its government funded. You just have to do the investment right.  

      LUCAS,
      Are you managing these yourself or do you have someone that handles it for you? Also, how many of these kinds of properties do you have if you don’t mind saying? Whereas you raised your hand as a brave soul stating that you are doing well in this class of Property. :)
    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Joe S.:
      Quote from @Lucas Thomas:
      Quote from @Laura Winters:

      You don’t make money on section 8 properties by rental value. You get massive tax credits for participating the affordable housing sector. The beauty is you don’t need to have 100% of your multi-dwelling unit to get this benefit. Depends on the state and city but they usually only require a certain % to participate and they don’t care how you run other portions of the property. Also you get massive credits + funds when you develop these houses. It isn’t making money because you are treating a different beast in a tame way. Section 8 / affordable housing is not something for RE newbie to touch. The people, law, and property are all challenging. 

       Well that's mostly only for commercial properties. The rest make money cause of normal landlord reasons. Tenants move in. Don't move out. And they let you increase the rent every year without having to figure out if the tenant can afford it. They can cause its government funded. You just have to do the investment right.  

      LUCAS,
      Are you managing these yourself or do you have someone that handles it for you? Also, how many of these kinds of properties do you have if you don’t mind saying? Whereas you raised your hand as a brave soul stating that you are doing well in this class of Property. :)

      Well HELLO :D

      I'm a subject matter expert in these actually.

      I used to own a property management company who specialized in these. I used to run 250 doors of SFH, condos, mobile homes, duplexes, triplexes, Fourplexes, and a few commercial multifamily that all were in war zones. Meth dens are my favorite to buy because people think they "cooked meth" in them which makes them sell for cheap. I have seen every horror story in real estate cause I ran so many doors, it was just an average Tuesday for me. LOL

      For management: I do both depending on the state as I own 35 properties in 5 states (Mix of SFH, Condos, Fourplexes, Duplexes, and Triplexes). If its in the Southwest, I manage it myself because it has very little weather and not a lot of external factors that affect the properties. In the Midwest/Northeast, I flew out and interviewed six different managers in each state and I hired the professionalized mom and pop shops that were under a franchises who knows how to run warzones. So you get the corporate infrastructure but with someone who cares about making me money. I do this because the water and weather shifts are too much for me to follow and having to winterize and unwinterize is too much of a hastle.

      I'm a Landlord's Landlord.

      But don't get discouraged by anything I said. I started out like everyone else. I bought a 5 bedroom house in the "Hood" and rented the rooms out individually to people from Craigslist as a Live-In Landlord. I bought my first crack-head condo for 40k and rented it for 1k a month. And I house-hacked my 1st 4 plex with a VA loan and evicted my upstairs neighbor which is why my standard protocol in my house-hacks is never let ANYONE know your the owner.

    • Rental Property Investor · St. Paul, MN · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Lucas Thomas:
      Quote from @Joe S.:
      Quote from @Lucas Thomas:
      Quote from @Laura Winters:

      You don’t make money on section 8 properties by rental value. You get massive tax credits for participating the affordable housing sector. The beauty is you don’t need to have 100% of your multi-dwelling unit to get this benefit. Depends on the state and city but they usually only require a certain % to participate and they don’t care how you run other portions of the property. Also you get massive credits + funds when you develop these houses. It isn’t making money because you are treating a different beast in a tame way. Section 8 / affordable housing is not something for RE newbie to touch. The people, law, and property are all challenging. 

       Well that's mostly only for commercial properties. The rest make money cause of normal landlord reasons. Tenants move in. Don't move out. And they let you increase the rent every year without having to figure out if the tenant can afford it. They can cause its government funded. You just have to do the investment right.  

      LUCAS,
      Are you managing these yourself or do you have someone that handles it for you? Also, how many of these kinds of properties do you have if you don’t mind saying? Whereas you raised your hand as a brave soul stating that you are doing well in this class of Property. :)

      Well HELLO :D

      I'm a subject matter expert in these actually.

      I used to own a property management company who specialized in these. I used to run 250 doors of SFH, condos, mobile homes, duplexes, triplexes, Fourplexes, and a few commercial multifamily that all were in war zones. Meth dens are my favorite to buy because people think they "cooked meth" in them which makes them sell for cheap. I have seen every horror story in real estate cause I ran so many doors, it was just an average Tuesday for me. LOL

      For management: I do both depending on the state as I own 35 properties in 5 states (Mix of SFH, Condos, Fourplexes, Duplexes, and Triplexes). If its in the Southwest, I manage it myself because it has very little weather and not a lot of external factors that affect the properties. In the Midwest/Northeast, I flew out and interviewed six different managers in each state and I hired the professionalized mom and pop shops that were under a franchises who knows how to run warzones. So you get the corporate infrastructure but with someone who cares about making me money. I do this because the water and weather shifts are too much for me to follow and having to winterize and unwinterize is too much of a hastle.

      I'm a Landlord's Landlord.

      But don't get discouraged by anything I said. I started out like everyone else. I bought a 5 bedroom house in the "Hood" and rented the rooms out individually to people from Craigslist as a Live-In Landlord. I bought my first crack-head condo for 40k and rented it for 1k a month. And I house-hacked my 1st 4 plex with a VA loan and evicted my upstairs neighbor which is why my standard protocol in my house-hacks is never let ANYONE know your the owner.


       What are you winterizing and dewinterizing each year? I live in MN and own thousands of doors in MN, WI, OH, and KY. We don't do winterizing. The furnace needs to be operational and it's best practice to remove the hose from the outdoor fixture, but other than that what are they charging you for? 

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Mark Cruse As a landlord you can understand the tenant base, you can respect the tenant base, you can be a responsive. This can be met by a tenant who is responsible and respectful of the property where the live. Unfortunately even the perfect landlord and tenant can't solve dilemna of expenses disproportionately impacting lower valued real estate. For illustration purposes take my market, Philadelphia as an example and compare a duplex in North Philadelpiha (c/d neighborhood) to a duplex in Chestnut Hill (A neighborhood). Rental licensing and lead testing requirements cost the same, common utilites cost the same, snow removal costs the same, general libility insurance costs the same, tax prep costs the same and the list goes on. Also, rents may be 3X higher but the leaking sink doesn't cost 3x to repair, when the curb trap has to be repalced, it costs the same and similarly the list goes on. Yes I agree, there are many landlords who are scum and treat their low income tenants poorly but treating your tenants well alone does not translate to sustainably operating these properties. Most who oprate in this space succesfully are extremely hands on or reach scale to achieve efficiencies. Neither of which is the profile of 99.9% of the investors on BiggerPockets who purchase these lower valued property expecting to retire early off of their excel spreadsheet cashflow.

    • Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Mark Cruse As a landlord you can understand the tenant base, you can respect the tenant base, you can be a responsive. This can be met by a tenant who is responsible and respectful of the property where the live. Unfortunately even the perfect landlord and tenant can't solve dilemna of expenses disproportionately impacting lower valued real estate. For illustration purposes take my market, Philadelphia as an example and compare a duplex in North Philadelpiha (c/d neighborhood) to a duplex in Chestnut Hill (A neighborhood). Rental licensing and lead testing requirements cost the same, common utilites cost the same, snow removal costs the same, general libility insurance costs the same, tax prep costs the same and the list goes on. Also, rents may be 3X higher but the leaking sink doesn't cost 3x to repair, when the curb trap has to be repalced, it costs the same and similarly the list goes on. Yes I agree, there are many landlords who are scum and treat their low income tenants poorly but treating your tenants well alone does not translate to sustainably operating these properties. Most who oprate in this space succesfully are extremely hands on or reach scale to achieve efficiencies. Neither of which is the profile of 99.9% of the investors on BiggerPockets who purchase these lower valued property expecting to retire early off of their excel spreadsheet cashflo

      Its more than just treating tenants with respect. You have to know the community and understand the culture. Most of these landlords do not. If you know how to screen, mitigate problems and stay out ahead of potential disasters, you are fine. Over the years, I had my share of silliness but over all I know what I'm doing. I know how to screen. I know how to get that voucher holder who respects my home and takes care of it. If I have 5 or 10 section 8 tenants that all have this mindset, I'm killing the game in steady, guaranteed cashflow and stability. I let them run themselves while they expand my equity holdings. Because of have lived in similar communities or know people in the communities, it gives me insight and understanding far beyond those who may have an understanding of it from movies or TV.  


    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Mark Cruse As a landlord you can understand the tenant base, you can respect the tenant base, you can be a responsive. This can be met by a tenant who is responsible and respectful of the property where the live. Unfortunately even the perfect landlord and tenant can't solve dilemna of expenses disproportionately impacting lower valued real estate. For illustration purposes take my market, Philadelphia as an example and compare a duplex in North Philadelpiha (c/d neighborhood) to a duplex in Chestnut Hill (A neighborhood). Rental licensing and lead testing requirements cost the same, common utilites cost the same, snow removal costs the same, general libility insurance costs the same, tax prep costs the same and the list goes on. Also, rents may be 3X higher but the leaking sink doesn't cost 3x to repair, when the curb trap has to be repalced, it costs the same and similarly the list goes on. Yes I agree, there are many landlords who are scum and treat their low income tenants poorly but treating your tenants well alone does not translate to sustainably operating these properties. Most who oprate in this space succesfully are extremely hands on or reach scale to achieve efficiencies. Neither of which is the profile of 99.9% of the investors on BiggerPockets who purchase these lower valued property expecting to retire early off of their excel spreadsheet cashflow.

      Well I disagree with this post whole-heartedly. Everything is cheaper on a low-income rental. The taxes are lower, the debt service is lower, have the tenants pay all utilities (Sub-Meter if necessary), and the maintenance/rehabs are always cheaper as you don't have to put anything nice in the unit and when you do,  you put the most durable stuff (make your properties into lil bomb shelters, LOL). You purchase used appliances for 25% of the cost of new, paint the counter tops with Food Grade Counter paint, paint the cabinets when the doors go missing so they all match, NEVER USE CARPET, etc. Etc. Etc. 

      If you can't cash flow a rental, it goes back to my original point that you are just bad at being a landlord. 
    • Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Mark Cruse As a landlord you can understand the tenant base, you can respect the tenant base, you can be a responsive. This can be met by a tenant who is responsible and respectful of the property where the live. Unfortunately even the perfect landlord and tenant can't solve dilemna of expenses disproportionately impacting lower valued real estate. For illustration purposes take my market, Philadelphia as an example and compare a duplex in North Philadelpiha (c/d neighborhood) to a duplex in Chestnut Hill (A neighborhood). Rental licensing and lead testing requirements cost the same, common utilites cost the same, snow removal costs the same, general libility insurance costs the same, tax prep costs the same and the list goes on. Also, rents may be 3X higher but the leaking sink doesn't cost 3x to repair, when the curb trap has to be repalced, it costs the same and similarly the list goes on. Yes I agree, there are many landlords who are scum and treat their low income tenants poorly but treating your tenants well alone does not translate to sustainably operating these properties. Most who oprate in this space succesfully are extremely hands on or reach scale to achieve efficiencies. Neither of which is the profile of 99.9% of the investors on BiggerPockets who purchase these lower valued property expecting to retire early off of their excel spreadsheet cashflow.

       I may not be making myself clear. I'm not alluding to the notion that treating them well will do it alone. Many are decent people who treat them well who can't make it work either. My point is you have to know your community. Most landlords who operate there do not. You have to understand what is going on in that community. You have to understand the culture and how to communicate with the population. You have to know how the critique the person you are getting and screen very well. You have to be familiar with how many of them thinks and perceives things. I have recently taken over a 2 unit that landlord after landlord could not make work. They have a 13-year tenant on section 8, but they were from some far away area far detached from any low-income elements. The place over all isn't low income but with more and more vouchers coming, certain pockets have that feeling. It was sold every few years because they didn't know what they were doing. I told the tenant I do and would be the landlord for several years. Low and behold; it's been nothing by smooth sailing. When people put up their proformas, spread sheets, calculated cash flow assessments and everything else, if they don't understand the inner dynamics, they are bound to fail. Because many have no clue how to communicate on this level or operate in the culture or environment, the mutual degrees of toleration and respect start to deteriorate rapidly. These are the same people who will come here and tell you they are a bunch of savages, or you need animal cages in your property. I know several people who thrive in the space who do not have this massive scale or that hands on. I'm one. I mean I do manage them, but I have several low-income tenants in place that all pay on time and treat my place as if it's their own. I don't know what to tell ya man. It's a niche and some just know how to work it. I know trump is and king and hero to so many here. His son in law operates in Baltimore hoods all the time. Yea, I guess you will attribute that to the scale, but like I said man, it works for some. Now I will say this, over time this can wear on you mentally which is why I'm upgrading, but like I said, I can operate on any level

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Mark Cruse:
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Mark Cruse As a landlord you can understand the tenant base, you can respect the tenant base, you can be a responsive. This can be met by a tenant who is responsible and respectful of the property where the live. Unfortunately even the perfect landlord and tenant can't solve dilemna of expenses disproportionately impacting lower valued real estate. For illustration purposes take my market, Philadelphia as an example and compare a duplex in North Philadelpiha (c/d neighborhood) to a duplex in Chestnut Hill (A neighborhood). Rental licensing and lead testing requirements cost the same, common utilites cost the same, snow removal costs the same, general libility insurance costs the same, tax prep costs the same and the list goes on. Also, rents may be 3X higher but the leaking sink doesn't cost 3x to repair, when the curb trap has to be repalced, it costs the same and similarly the list goes on. Yes I agree, there are many landlords who are scum and treat their low income tenants poorly but treating your tenants well alone does not translate to sustainably operating these properties. Most who oprate in this space succesfully are extremely hands on or reach scale to achieve efficiencies. Neither of which is the profile of 99.9% of the investors on BiggerPockets who purchase these lower valued property expecting to retire early off of their excel spreadsheet cashflow.

       I may not be making myself clear. I'm not alluding to the notion that treating them well will do it alone. Many are decent people who treat them well who can't make it work either. My point is you have to know your community. Most landlords who operate there do not. You have to understand what is going on in that community. You have to understand the culture and how to communicate with the population. You have to know how the critique the person you are getting and screen very well. You have to be familiar with how many of them thinks and perceives things. I have recently taken over a 2 unit that landlord after landlord could not make work. They have a 13-year tenant on section 8, but they were from some far away area far detached from any low-income elements. The place over all isn't low income but with more and more vouchers coming, certain pockets have that feeling. It was sold every few years because they didn't know what they were doing. I told the tenant I do and would be the landlord for several years. Low and behold; it's been nothing by smooth sailing. When people put up their proformas, spread sheets, calculated cash flow assessments and everything else, if they don't understand the inner dynamics, they are bound to fail. Because many have no clue how to communicate on this level or operate in the culture or environment, the mutual degrees of toleration and respect start to deteriorate rapidly. These are the same people who will come here and tell you they are a bunch of savages, or you need animal cages in your property. I know several people who thrive in the space who do not have this massive scale or that hands on. I'm one. I mean I do manage them, but I have several low-income tenants in place that all pay on time and treat my place as if it's their own. I don't know what to tell ya man. It's a niche and some just know how to work it. I know trump is and king and hero to so many here. His son in law operates in Baltimore hoods all the time. Yea, I guess you will attribute that to the scale, but like I said man, it works for some. Now I will say this, over time this can wear on you mentally which is why I'm upgrading, but like I said, I can operate on any level

      during the GFC I had to move to Jackson MS as I was foreclosing on about 200 section 8 rentals I had made loans on.. the landlords and borrowers were as described all basically west coast based and had no CLUE as to the issues Mark is describing and neither did I .. But I got an education I was knocking on doors talking to tenants etc etc. But it was tough being a white guy from the coast in an all black neighborhood knocking on the door, At the beginning I literally could not understand many with the deep south accents etc so that was tough .
      wanting to know who they were paying rent to LOL.. I swear they thought  I was FBI or cops or something. Would not answer the door or would not tell the truth they all said they paid rent but could not prove it etc.  I was there like I said a year and learned a lot about that culture of the deep south and those who are basically life long renters and 2nd and 3rd generation section 8.. And like most things some were great some were not and some were awful.. So after that trauma and losing millions as I re-positioned and started over. Turning it over to PM would have been worse as most PM's in those areas.  I will only do business now with folks that live and work in the community NO OUT Of AREA landlords will I lend to.. Unless its A B class non section 8.  Currently lending in Baltimore for buy and hold .  My clients though ( I only have 3) But they each own well over 200 doors live in pikesville and are in the neighborhood each and every day.. Just like when i go there ( was there in Jan.) I go through 10 or 15 of the projects I am funding to just see how they are doing.. They are providing very nice units I know I pay the rehab draws and visually inspect.. none of them are slum lord exact opposite actually. But they all self manage or should I say both of them have a PM that ONLY manages their portfolios.. I am very proud of what I am doing there.. I am funding next week a 23 home portfolio all shells all on one block 270k total for all of them.. But the rehab budget on all of them is 90 to 110k each So here I am providing 2.5 million for a local to change an entire block in Baltimore pretty cool really .. so my client is making a difference big time in the city. And when I am there I talk to a lot of the tenants and neighbors generally all nice and welcoming folks. 

    • Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Mark Cruse:
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Mark Cruse As a landlord you can understand the tenant base, you can respect the tenant base, you can be a responsive. This can be met by a tenant who is responsible and respectful of the property where the live. Unfortunately even the perfect landlord and tenant can't solve dilemna of expenses disproportionately impacting lower valued real estate. For illustration purposes take my market, Philadelphia as an example and compare a duplex in North Philadelpiha (c/d neighborhood) to a duplex in Chestnut Hill (A neighborhood). Rental licensing and lead testing requirements cost the same, common utilites cost the same, snow removal costs the same, general libility insurance costs the same, tax prep costs the same and the list goes on. Also, rents may be 3X higher but the leaking sink doesn't cost 3x to repair, when the curb trap has to be repalced, it costs the same and similarly the list goes on. Yes I agree, there are many landlords who are scum and treat their low income tenants poorly but treating your tenants well alone does not translate to sustainably operating these properties. Most who oprate in this space succesfully are extremely hands on or reach scale to achieve efficiencies. Neither of which is the profile of 99.9% of the investors on BiggerPockets who purchase these lower valued property expecting to retire early off of their excel spreadsheet cashflow.

       I may not be making myself clear. I'm not alluding to the notion that treating them well will do it alone. Many are decent people who treat them well who can't make it work either. My point is you have to know your community. Most landlords who operate there do not. You have to understand what is going on in that community. You have to understand the culture and how to communicate with the population. You have to know how the critique the person you are getting and screen very well. You have to be familiar with how many of them thinks and perceives things. I have recently taken over a 2 unit that landlord after landlord could not make work. They have a 13-year tenant on section 8, but they were from some far away area far detached from any low-income elements. The place over all isn't low income but with more and more vouchers coming, certain pockets have that feeling. It was sold every few years because they didn't know what they were doing. I told the tenant I do and would be the landlord for several years. Low and behold; it's been nothing by smooth sailing. When people put up their proformas, spread sheets, calculated cash flow assessments and everything else, if they don't understand the inner dynamics, they are bound to fail. Because many have no clue how to communicate on this level or operate in the culture or environment, the mutual degrees of toleration and respect start to deteriorate rapidly. These are the same people who will come here and tell you they are a bunch of savages, or you need animal cages in your property. I know several people who thrive in the space who do not have this massive scale or that hands on. I'm one. I mean I do manage them, but I have several low-income tenants in place that all pay on time and treat my place as if it's their own. I don't know what to tell ya man. It's a niche and some just know how to work it. I know trump is and king and hero to so many here. His son in law operates in Baltimore hoods all the time. Yea, I guess you will attribute that to the scale, but like I said man, it works for some. Now I will say this, over time this can wear on you mentally which is why I'm upgrading, but like I said, I can operate on any level


      during the GFC I had to move to Jackson MS as I was foreclosing on about 200 section 8 rentals I had made loans on.. the landlords and borrowers were as described all basically west coast based and had no CLUE as to the issues Mark is describing and neither did I .. But I got an education I was knocking on doors talking to tenants etc etc. But it was tough being a white guy from the coast in an all black neighborhood knocking on the door, At the beginning I literally could not understand many with the deep south accents etc so that was tough .
      wanting to know who they were paying rent to LOL.. I swear they thought  I was FBI or cops or something. Would not answer the door or would not tell the truth they all said they paid rent but could not prove it etc.  I was there like I said a year and learned a lot about that culture of the deep south and those who are basically life long renters and 2nd and 3rd generation section 8.. And like most things some were great some were not and some were awful.. So after that trauma and losing millions as I re-positioned and started over. Turning it over to PM would have been worse as most PM's in those areas.  I will only do business now with folks that live and work in the community NO OUT Of AREA landlords will I lend to.. Unless its A B class non section 8.  Currently lending in Baltimore for buy and hold .  My clients though ( I only have 3) But they each own well over 200 doors live in pikesville and are in the neighborhood each and every day.. Just like when i go there ( was there in Jan.) I go through 10 or 15 of the projects I am funding to just see how they are doing.. They are providing very nice units I know I pay the rehab draws and visually inspect.. none of them are slum lord exact opposite actually. But they all self manage or should I say both of them have a PM that ONLY manages their portfolios.. I am very proud of what I am doing there.. I am funding next week a 23 home portfolio all shells all on one block 270k total for all of them.. But the rehab budget on all of them is 90 to 110k each.. so my client is making a difference big time in the city. 

       Wow, what a testament. White dude walking through all that. LOL. I can only imagine some of the madness lol.  But by doing that you are further exemplifying what I have been saying. Not sure if you were saying this, or it was your intent, but in a more profound and demonstrated aspect, you are proving the point I'm making. I don't want that many, but I would love to network with people doing that scale in Bmore. 

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Mark Cruse:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Mark Cruse:
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Mark Cruse As a landlord you can understand the tenant base, you can respect the tenant base, you can be a responsive. This can be met by a tenant who is responsible and respectful of the property where the live. Unfortunately even the perfect landlord and tenant can't solve dilemna of expenses disproportionately impacting lower valued real estate. For illustration purposes take my market, Philadelphia as an example and compare a duplex in North Philadelpiha (c/d neighborhood) to a duplex in Chestnut Hill (A neighborhood). Rental licensing and lead testing requirements cost the same, common utilites cost the same, snow removal costs the same, general libility insurance costs the same, tax prep costs the same and the list goes on. Also, rents may be 3X higher but the leaking sink doesn't cost 3x to repair, when the curb trap has to be repalced, it costs the same and similarly the list goes on. Yes I agree, there are many landlords who are scum and treat their low income tenants poorly but treating your tenants well alone does not translate to sustainably operating these properties. Most who oprate in this space succesfully are extremely hands on or reach scale to achieve efficiencies. Neither of which is the profile of 99.9% of the investors on BiggerPockets who purchase these lower valued property expecting to retire early off of their excel spreadsheet cashflow.

       I may not be making myself clear. I'm not alluding to the notion that treating them well will do it alone. Many are decent people who treat them well who can't make it work either. My point is you have to know your community. Most landlords who operate there do not. You have to understand what is going on in that community. You have to understand the culture and how to communicate with the population. You have to know how the critique the person you are getting and screen very well. You have to be familiar with how many of them thinks and perceives things. I have recently taken over a 2 unit that landlord after landlord could not make work. They have a 13-year tenant on section 8, but they were from some far away area far detached from any low-income elements. The place over all isn't low income but with more and more vouchers coming, certain pockets have that feeling. It was sold every few years because they didn't know what they were doing. I told the tenant I do and would be the landlord for several years. Low and behold; it's been nothing by smooth sailing. When people put up their proformas, spread sheets, calculated cash flow assessments and everything else, if they don't understand the inner dynamics, they are bound to fail. Because many have no clue how to communicate on this level or operate in the culture or environment, the mutual degrees of toleration and respect start to deteriorate rapidly. These are the same people who will come here and tell you they are a bunch of savages, or you need animal cages in your property. I know several people who thrive in the space who do not have this massive scale or that hands on. I'm one. I mean I do manage them, but I have several low-income tenants in place that all pay on time and treat my place as if it's their own. I don't know what to tell ya man. It's a niche and some just know how to work it. I know trump is and king and hero to so many here. His son in law operates in Baltimore hoods all the time. Yea, I guess you will attribute that to the scale, but like I said man, it works for some. Now I will say this, over time this can wear on you mentally which is why I'm upgrading, but like I said, I can operate on any level


      during the GFC I had to move to Jackson MS as I was foreclosing on about 200 section 8 rentals I had made loans on.. the landlords and borrowers were as described all basically west coast based and had no CLUE as to the issues Mark is describing and neither did I .. But I got an education I was knocking on doors talking to tenants etc etc. But it was tough being a white guy from the coast in an all black neighborhood knocking on the door, At the beginning I literally could not understand many with the deep south accents etc so that was tough .
      wanting to know who they were paying rent to LOL.. I swear they thought  I was FBI or cops or something. Would not answer the door or would not tell the truth they all said they paid rent but could not prove it etc.  I was there like I said a year and learned a lot about that culture of the deep south and those who are basically life long renters and 2nd and 3rd generation section 8.. And like most things some were great some were not and some were awful.. So after that trauma and losing millions as I re-positioned and started over. Turning it over to PM would have been worse as most PM's in those areas.  I will only do business now with folks that live and work in the community NO OUT Of AREA landlords will I lend to.. Unless its A B class non section 8.  Currently lending in Baltimore for buy and hold .  My clients though ( I only have 3) But they each own well over 200 doors live in pikesville and are in the neighborhood each and every day.. Just like when i go there ( was there in Jan.) I go through 10 or 15 of the projects I am funding to just see how they are doing.. They are providing very nice units I know I pay the rehab draws and visually inspect.. none of them are slum lord exact opposite actually. But they all self manage or should I say both of them have a PM that ONLY manages their portfolios.. I am very proud of what I am doing there.. I am funding next week a 23 home portfolio all shells all on one block 270k total for all of them.. But the rehab budget on all of them is 90 to 110k each.. so my client is making a difference big time in the city. 

       Wow, what a testament. White dude walking through all that. LOL. I can only imagine some of the madness lol.  But by doing that you are further exemplifying what I have been saying. Not sure if you were saying this, or it was your intent, but in a more profound and demonstrated aspect, you are proving the point I'm making. I don't want that many, but I would love to network with people doing that scale in Bmore. 


      One of my clients is a black man raised in the area and very politically connected and really out to change the neighborhoods.. you can ping me and I will make an intro if you wish. 
    • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
      OP
      Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Lucas Thomas:
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Mark Cruse As a landlord you can understand the tenant base, you can respect the tenant base, you can be a responsive. This can be met by a tenant who is responsible and respectful of the property where the live. Unfortunately even the perfect landlord and tenant can't solve dilemna of expenses disproportionately impacting lower valued real estate. For illustration purposes take my market, Philadelphia as an example and compare a duplex in North Philadelpiha (c/d neighborhood) to a duplex in Chestnut Hill (A neighborhood). Rental licensing and lead testing requirements cost the same, common utilites cost the same, snow removal costs the same, general libility insurance costs the same, tax prep costs the same and the list goes on. Also, rents may be 3X higher but the leaking sink doesn't cost 3x to repair, when the curb trap has to be repalced, it costs the same and similarly the list goes on. Yes I agree, there are many landlords who are scum and treat their low income tenants poorly but treating your tenants well alone does not translate to sustainably operating these properties. Most who oprate in this space succesfully are extremely hands on or reach scale to achieve efficiencies. Neither of which is the profile of 99.9% of the investors on BiggerPockets who purchase these lower valued property expecting to retire early off of their excel spreadsheet cashflow.

      Well I disagree with this post whole-heartedly. Everything is cheaper on a low-income rental. The taxes are lower, the debt service is lower, have the tenants pay all utilities (Sub-Meter if necessary), and the maintenance/rehabs are always cheaper as you don't have to put anything nice in the unit and when you do,  you put the most durable stuff (make your properties into lil bomb shelters, LOL). You purchase used appliances for 25% of the cost of new, paint the counter tops with Food Grade Counter paint, paint the cabinets when the doors go missing so they all match, NEVER USE CARPET, etc. Etc. Etc. 

      If you can't cash flow a rental, it goes back to my original point that you are just bad at being a landlord. 

       So you just provide a sub par apartment and low quality repairs? Maintenance and repairs not cheaper unless you are getting really low quality work and materials. And if you get high quality work then you are saving on materials. Which is its own issue. Also don't understand how cash flow makes you a bad landlord? So if I cash flow and defer items I am a good landlord but if I break even but have a solid home I am a bad landlord?

      Like Stuart mentioned, toilet clogs, leaks, windows, etc will all cost the same on a class A rental or class D. 

      Because of this, people who own in lower class areas, encounter more repairs, so they use cheaper quality work and materials because your money doesn't go as far anymore. Eventually this poor quality of material and labor will bite your wallet again. and the cycle continues. In class A areas you can more safely adopt the idea: put it in once the right way and forget about it. Tougher to do this when your house is worth 80k and your windows bill is 3-5k. So you go for the lowest bidder at 1k. Those windows barely last and now your window is leaking from poor installation. You try to call the contractor but he is dodging your calls.

      Please explain to me how replacing a window in a class D area is cheaper than class A without forgoing material and labor quality? 

      Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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  • Yakir AloniPro Member
    Member since 2023 · 51 posts · 19 votes
    1y

    I read your post and I must to ask you how he had non payment?? Section 8 don't covered by the government?? I live in chicago and I want to Stat to donit also and now when I read your post I'm little bit concerned about it!! Ty fpr your post I

    • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
      OP
      Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Yakir Aloni:

      I read your post and I must to ask you how he had non payment?? Section 8 don't covered by the government?? I live in chicago and I want to Stat to donit also and now when I read your post I'm little bit concerned about it!! Ty fpr your post I


       Only the governments portion is guaranteed. The tenants portion never guaranteed. That portions is not decided by you but by PHA. Gov might only be responsible for 200 bucks - for example

      Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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  • Real Estate Agent · San DIego · Member since 2019 · 177 posts · 185 votes
    1y

    I inherited a section 8 tenant in my first Four plex.  She was tidy and paid her copayment on time.  She lived there throughout the time we owned it and probably still does.  It was a nice unit in a B neighborhood.  
    It was a positive experience overall, but I’ve learned a lot since then.  In a nutshell, screen your tenant well no matter what the rental is.  Hold out for a good tenant even if the wait seems endless, because a bad tenant is the most expensive thing you can have.  

  • Member since 2022 · 1 post · 0 votes
    1y

    What was the monthly rent when you started with the $110,000 valuation?  Compared to the rent/value of your later example. Im assuming it went down. Curious how much 

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 60 posts · 12 votes
    1y

    Everything brought up is valid but it’s all relative.  If you’re hearing this from veterans in the specific area(s) you invest in the arguments hold more weight.   You can purchase a home in any neighborhood and rent it to someone with a voucher it’s not exclusive to C and D neighborhoods.  A few other points that were left out, if you’re a great landlord and you vet properly a family on section 8 or veterans housing “vash” will more than likely live in your property for 5-10 years or longer.  Someone mentioned you have a better pool to select from in A or B neighborhoods.  I would definitely rent a place in a B or C neighborhood and I would argue you have a better chance of finding a high quality tenant because there are more people to choose from. I can find hundreds of applicants for a place at 1800 to $2500 a month versus the half dozen that want to rent out a $3500 to $4500 home.  Long story short I want to thank everyone that says section 8 sucks. I’ll gladly rent to anyone that’s interested that meets our requirements. 

  • Ben FernandezBusiness Member
    Realtor · Lancaster, PA · Member since 2025 · 169 posts · 97 votes
    1y

    Great post! These are common mistakes when you don't buy right!

    The "buck gets passed" a lot in rental properties. Where landlords make big mistakes buying rental property well above it's actual market value. Quite often these tend to be slum lords properties, and they make no upgrades - just bandaids. Then they sell the property on the MLS for well above what it's worth.

    The hidden bandaids and low sticker price makes suckers of new buyers not recognizing all the deferred maintenance and high potential money pit...Appearing to be "good numbers" based upon the rent it's getting.

    This cycle happens frequently and when you don't know how to assess repairs, and you buy wrong, you end up holding the bag. Then the owner anticipates a safe exit without encountering too much of a loss, but making an effort to pass as much of the pain off on another sucker because they got duped. 

    These properties appear as if they were only worth $40k to begin with. But the $80k looked so good...

    Regardless of where you buy, know what your buying. Properly assess expenses, upgrades, and asset class, so you're prepared for the character type of that asset.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    Same I always push my clients towards class B/A as the results are soooo much better. Here north side Chicago we market units month or so before tenant leave and have move in/out same day makes for 0 vacancy, I have never even had to give a late fee here and don’t worry about a tenant not leaving. My working class 4 unit in suburbs would be impossible to run like that as you never know if a tenant will actually leave on time and the units always need significant turnover repairs as low class tenants destroy things, I guess it’s a cultural thing. People with 700 credit scores tend to keep things nice, we don’t even do security deposits just $550 move in fee and I have never felt burned on it. 

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 60 posts · 12 votes
    1y

    @Joe S. @Lucas Thomas as I said earlier Joe you need to get information from someone specific to the area. Someone provided a blanket statement on housing vouchers. If I were buying homes exclusively on the west or east side of San Antonio then I’d  agree.  Fortunately for you San Antonio is a large city and there’s different pockets of C, D and F neighborhoods. I think if you understand that and you screen properly you’ll be successful.  When people mention A properties you either have to have a high paying w2 or come into a good deal of money in order to make them work most people can’t afford to $60-75k down in a down payment and closing costs.  

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Lucas Thomas Of course your property tax bill will be less becasue property taxes will be based on the assessed value and yes your debt service will be lower because the properties will have smaller mortgages but you are otherwise focused solely on buying cheaper materials. To take the stance "Everything is cheaper in on a low-income rental" is a laughable asssertion.

    Here's a 3 Bedroom unit of mine I just listed in a B+ location and another similar sized 3 bedroom unit in a C location in same market. My rental is $2,950/m whereas the C location rental is $1600/m. 

    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/23-E-Durham-St-A1-Philade...

    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5346-E-Roosevelt-Blvd-Phi...

    Rental License Fees are based on unit count, costs the same for my $2,950/m rental as the $1,600/m rental

    Required lead testing (when applicable) is charged by room, doesn't matter if its a $2,950/m rental or $1,600/m rental

    And to continue.....

    Snow removal costs the same, its based on the Sidewalk SF

    A million dollars of general liability coverage costs the same 

    Extermination services cost the same for similar sizes unit 

    When I have to turn over my units, it costs the same to clean and paint the same size unit....actually less in my $2,950/m rental because my tenant's take far better care of the property

    When I have a maintnance requsest, it doesn't cost m 2X to have a technician take care of the same task in my rental as the $1,600/m rental.

    When my curb trap has to be replaced, it will cost the same etc. etc.

    Then onto utilities. Not everything can be sub metered. How do you sub meter common area space in a multi-family building? Also water is rarely submetered in a multi-family unit. You can charge a flat water fee as part in your lease (I do). However water usage rates don't differ neighbohrood to neighborhood. It's the same throughout the city. It's a lot easier install a flat usage fee and collect 100% recapture in my $2,950/m rental than it is in  a $1,600/m rental.  Common electric is a rounding error in my buildings but it has an effect on cash flow if the buuilding consisted of  $1,600/m 3 Beds.

    Unless you are onto some new guru scheme and way ahead of us all, please elaborate how everying is cheaper on a low income rental. 

    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Lucas Thomas Of course your property tax bill will be less becasue property taxes will be based on the assessed value and yes your debt service will be lower because the properties will have smaller mortgages but you are otherwise focused solely on buying cheaper materials. To take the stance "Everything is cheaper in on a low-income rental" is a laughable asssertion.

      Here's a 3 Bedroom unit of mine I just listed in a B+ location and another similar sized 3 bedroom unit in a C location in same market. My rental is $2,950/m whereas the C location rental is $1600/m. 

      https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/23-E-Durham-St-A1-Philade...

      https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5346-E-Roosevelt-Blvd-Phi...

      Rental License Fees are based on unit count, costs the same for my $2,950/m rental as the $1,600/m rental

      Required lead testing (when applicable) is charged by room, doesn't matter if its a $2,950/m rental or $1,600/m rental

      And to continue.....

      Snow removal costs the same, its based on the Sidewalk SF

      A million dollars of general liability coverage costs the same 

      Extermination services cost the same for similar sizes unit 

      When I have to turn over my units, it costs the same to clean and paint the same size unit....actually less in my $2,950/m rental because my tenant's take far better care of the property

      When I have a maintnance requsest, it doesn't cost m 2X to have a technician take care of the same task in my rental as the $1,600/m rental.

      When my curb trap has to be replaced, it will cost the same etc. etc.

      Then onto utilities. Not everything can be sub metered. How do you sub meter common area space in a multi-family building? Also water is rarely submetered in a multi-family unit. You can charge a flat water fee as part in your lease (I do). However water usage rates don't differ neighbohrood to neighborhood. It's the same throughout the city. It's a lot easier install a flat usage fee and collect 100% recapture in my $2,950/m rental than it is in  a $1,600/m rental.  Common electric is a rounding error in my buildings but it has an effect on cash flow if the buuilding consisted of  $1,600/m 3 Beds.

      Unless you are onto some new guru scheme and way ahead of us all, please elaborate how everying is cheaper on a low income rental. 

      Well HELLO Stuart -:D

      Before we debate any further, I’d like to set some ground rules:

      Disclaimer* - I do not own any real estate in the lovely city of Philadelphia nor do I own in the beautiful Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. So I’m unsure if it is a landlord friendly state and the exact trials and tribulations you must endure to cashflow a property there because in the 5 states I own, they do not require Rental Licenses, snow removal, or lead tests. I also don’t know your handyman laws so the prices could be completely different depending on who you hire.

      Now that…. that is taken care of. You have committed some GRAVE Cardinal Cashflow Sins on the property you purchased. And because I’m guessing you picked a random C+ neighborhood property to compare to, I’ll use him as our control property in this cashflow experiment.

      Let’s discuss:

      Sin 1
      – Your property fails the 1% rule. You overpaid for it. According to the sale records, you purchased it for $475,000. 1% rule states that it needs to rent for a minimum of $4750 a month to work. You are sadly only getting $2950.:(

      Even worse, the tax records from the assessor website states you pay $6772 annually for taxes. That divided by 12 is… $564 per month. Insurance on this is probably around 1200 a year which is $100 per month. Your HOA is $142 a month. Include Vacancy Rate of 5%. Which is $1996 rough cashflow. Giving you a 5% ROI. IF you own it cash. This isn’t including standard maintenance, snow removal, or property management fees.

      If we take the same property and add debt service. A loan of $347000 at 6.5% on a 30 year term is $2191.70 bringing your cashflow to negative ($196). Giving you an annual negative ROI of -3% This isn’t including standard maintenance, snow removal, or property management fees.

      You apartment doesn’t look like a family place, which is why according to the price history on Zillow, you can’t keep a tenant past a year. Mostly renting for one year and they move out. So you have some move-out costs on each run. Plus we aren't even including the fact that it is furnished and how much did that set you back? How much does the furnishings cost to maintain?

      So overall, I’d say your townhome is more likely only getting a 2-3% ROI on cash and a negative -6%+ on debt service.

      For appreciation, Unit A2 recently sold for 575k. Congratulations, you have 100k equity.


      Sin 2
      – Comparing Apples to Oranges. You can't compare a SFH to a townhome. As SFH usually appreciate better than a townhome as they are almost always in more demand than condos/townhomes. So SFH’s in general, are more an equity play, than a cashflow play. But I digress. The property you chose “randomly I’m guessing” is actually a great little investment. Let’s dissect:

      The Roosevelt property FAR EXCEEDS the 1% rule. He bought it in 2018 for $80,000 and is getting $1600 in rent! That is double the 1% rule… 2%!!!

      The tax records from the assessor website states Roosevelt pays $2864 annually for taxes. That divided by 12 is… $239 per month. Insurance on this is probably around 1600 a year which is $133 per month. There is no HOA and the utilities can be offloaded directly onto tenants Include Vacancy Rate of 5%. Which is $1148 rough cashflow. Giving him a 17% ROI. IF you own it cash. This isn’t including standard maintenance, snow removal, or property management fees.

      If we take the same property and add debt service. A loan of $60000 at 6.5% on a 30 year term is $369.13 bringing his cashflow to $779 per month. Giving him an annual ROI of 43%. This isn’t including standard maintenance, snow removal, or property management fees.

      Hey! His house already rented according to zillow for the $1600 which probably means the rent was lower than market so it rented so quick. And according to his records, he rented the place out in 2018 and had a stable family tenant until 2025. So that is 8 years of tenancy and if he did S*, he could have raised the rent by $100 per year, every year like I do and gotten, $1600 in first year, $1700 in 2nd year, $1800 in 3rd year, $1900 in 4th year, $2000 in 5th year, $2100 in 6th year, $2200 in 7th year, and $2300 in 8th year. Because the government pays, the rent increases are easy to do. He could have easily been making $2300 a month on that bad boy. He probably wasn’t even affected by the Pandemic as the government kept paying through that whole crisis.

      So overall, our Friend Roosevelt is making a killing. Starting out at a 17% ROI and increasing it by 2% every year through $100 rent increases.

      For appreciation, Zillow says the house is worth $180,000. Congratulations Roosevelt, you have 100k equity. 

      Sin 3
      – Opportunity cost: you could have bought 6 houses for the same price of your condo. That's 1600 * 6 = 9600 a month in Gross Rev. And $600,000 in lost Equity spread. 

      Sin 4 -
      Failure to acknowledge Expectations. B+ and above Properties require a higher echelon of care and quality. You can't for example: Purchase USED Appliances for 25% of the cost of new. You can't Paint Counter Tops and Cabinets when they get water damaged, etc.. You can't "Do Repairs in a manner that is legal and safe, but not cosmetically pleasing". You can't utilize many cost savings measures in the B+ properties and there is a Premium you have to pay for that which takes your low ROI and drives it straight into the ground. 

      I think that covers the majority of this thought experiment.

      Better luck next time.
    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Lucas Thomas Of course your property tax bill will be less becasue property taxes will be based on the assessed value and yes your debt service will be lower because the properties will have smaller mortgages but you are otherwise focused solely on buying cheaper materials. To take the stance "Everything is cheaper in on a low-income rental" is a laughable asssertion.

      Here's a 3 Bedroom unit of mine I just listed in a B+ location and another similar sized 3 bedroom unit in a C location in same market. My rental is $2,950/m whereas the C location rental is $1600/m. 

      https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/23-E-Durham-St-A1-Philade...

      https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5346-E-Roosevelt-Blvd-Phi...

      Rental License Fees are based on unit count, costs the same for my $2,950/m rental as the $1,600/m rental

      Required lead testing (when applicable) is charged by room, doesn't matter if its a $2,950/m rental or $1,600/m rental

      And to continue.....

      Snow removal costs the same, its based on the Sidewalk SF

      A million dollars of general liability coverage costs the same 

      Extermination services cost the same for similar sizes unit 

      When I have to turn over my units, it costs the same to clean and paint the same size unit....actually less in my $2,950/m rental because my tenant's take far better care of the property

      When I have a maintnance requsest, it doesn't cost m 2X to have a technician take care of the same task in my rental as the $1,600/m rental.

      When my curb trap has to be replaced, it will cost the same etc. etc.

      Then onto utilities. Not everything can be sub metered. How do you sub meter common area space in a multi-family building? Also water is rarely submetered in a multi-family unit. You can charge a flat water fee as part in your lease (I do). However water usage rates don't differ neighbohrood to neighborhood. It's the same throughout the city. It's a lot easier install a flat usage fee and collect 100% recapture in my $2,950/m rental than it is in  a $1,600/m rental.  Common electric is a rounding error in my buildings but it has an effect on cash flow if the buuilding consisted of  $1,600/m 3 Beds.

      Unless you are onto some new guru scheme and way ahead of us all, please elaborate how everying is cheaper on a low income rental. 


      Well HELLO Stuart -:D

      Before we debate any further, I’d like to set some ground rules:

      Disclaimer* - I do not own any real estate in the lovely city of Philadelphia nor do I own in the beautiful Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. So I’m unsure if it is a landlord friendly state and the exact trials and tribulations you must endure to cashflow a property there because in the 5 states I own, they do not require Rental Licenses, snow removal, or lead tests. I also don’t know your handyman laws so the prices could be completely different depending on who you hire.

      Now that…. that is taken care of. You have committed some GRAVE Cardinal Cashflow Sins on the property you purchased. And because I’m guessing you picked a random C+ neighborhood property to compare to, I’ll use him as our control property in this cashflow experiment.

      Let’s discuss:

      Sin 1 – Your property fails the 1% rule. You overpaid for it. According to the sale records, you purchased it for $475,000. 1% rule states that it needs to rent for a minimum of $4750 a month to work. You are sadly only getting $2950.:(

      Even worse, the tax records from the assessor website states you pay $6772 annually for taxes. That divided by 12 is… $564 per month. Insurance on this is probably around 1200 a year which is $100 per month. Your HOA is $142 a month. Include Vacancy Rate of 5%. Which is $1996 rough cashflow. Giving you a 5% ROI. IF you own it cash. This isn't including standard maintenance, snow removal, or property management fees.

      If we take the same property and add debt service. A loan of $347000 at 6.5% on a 30 year term is $2191.70 bringing your cashflow to negative ($196). Giving you an annual negative ROI of -3% This isn't including standard maintenance, snow removal, or property management fees.

      You apartment doesn’t look like a family place, which is why according to the price history on Zillow, you can’t keep a tenant past a year. Mostly renting for one year and they move out. So you have some move-out costs on each run. Plus we aren't even including the fact that it is furnished and how much did that set you back? How much does the furnishings cost to maintain?

      So overall, I'd say your townhome is more likely only getting a 2-3% ROI on cash and a negative -6%+ on debt service.

      For appreciation, Unit A2 recently sold for 575k. Congratulations, you have 100k equity.

      Sin 2 – Comparing Apples to Oranges. You can't compare a SFH to a townhome. As SFH usually appreciate better than a townhome as they are almost always in more demand than condos/townhomes. So SFH's in general, are more an equity play, than a cashflow play. But I digress. The property you chose "randomly I'm guessing" is actually a great little investment. Let's dissect:

      The Roosevelt property FAR EXCEEDS the 1% rule. He bought it in 2018 for $80,000 and is getting $1600 in rent! That is double the 1% rule… 2%!!!

      The tax records from the assessor website states Roosevelt pays $2864 annually for taxes. That divided by 12 is… $239 per month. Insurance on this is probably around 1600 a year which is $133 per month. There is no HOA and the utilities can be offloaded directly onto tenants Include Vacancy Rate of 5%. Which is $1148 rough cashflow. Giving him a 17% ROI. IF you own it cash. This isn't including standard maintenance, snow removal, or property management fees.

      If we take the same property and add debt service. A loan of $60000 at 6.5% on a 30 year term is $369.13 bringing his cashflow to $779 per month. Giving him an annual ROI of 43%. This isn't including standard maintenance, snow removal, or property management fees.

      Hey! His house already rented according to zillow for the $1600 which probably means the rent was lower than market so it rented so quick. And according to his records, he rented the place out in 2018 and had a stable family tenant until 2025. So that is 8 years of tenancy and if he did S8, he could have raised the rent by $100 per year, every year like I do and gotten, $1600 in first year, $1700 in 2nd year, $1800 in 3rd year, $1900 in 4th year, $2000 in 5th year, $2100 in 6th year, $2200 in 7th year, and $2300 in 8th year. Because the government pays, the rent increases are easy to do. He could have easily been making $2300 a month on that bad boy. He probably wasn’t even affected by the Pandemic as the government kept paying through that whole crisis.

      So overall, our Friend Roosevelt is making a killing. Starting out at a 17% ROI and increasing it by 2% every year through $100 rent increases.

      For appreciation, Zillow says the house is worth $180,000. Congratulations Roosevelt, you have 100k equity.

      Sin 3 – Opportunity cost: you could have bought 6 houses for the same price of your condo. That's 1600 * 6 = 9600 a month in Gross Rev. And $600,000 in lost Equity Spread.

      Sin 4 - Failure to acknowledge Expectations. B+ and above Properties require a higher echelon of care and quality. You can't for example: Purchase USED Appliances for 25% of the cost of new. You can't Paint Counter Tops and Cabinets when they get water damaged, etc.. You can't "Do Repairs in a manner that is legal and safe, but not cosmetically pleasing". You can't utilize many cost savings measures in the B+ properties and there is a Premium you have to pay for that which takes your low ROI and drives it straight into the ground.

      I think that covers the majority of this thought experiment.

      Better luck next time.

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 175 posts · 86 votes
    1y

    taxes are a huge issue in chicago - D properties usually have lower taxes so the tax abatement you get from section 8 will help you less ???? i had a property in back of the yards where my taxes were $800. i had a CHA tenant but never even applied for abatement because it would’ve been like $200.

    i’m looking to place one in a B neighborhood now where i’d save thousands

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 462 posts · 294 votes
    1y

    I believe I may be the only person successful at this Section 8 strategy based on the comments. 😆 

    From 1997 to 2008, I bought multiple properties for under $50K in rough areas of town. If anyone knows San Antonio and remembers areas like Five Palms, they know it was super rough in the '80s and beyond.

    I invested at most $5 per square foot on purchase for renovations, making the properties beautiful but using basic materials.

    Back then, I would run background checks on all tenants. I used NTN, or the National Tenant Network, and passed those costs onto potential tenants.

    My practice was to look at their vehicle and the condition of their current living situation. If they opened the car door and a body fell out, it was a no-go! Just kidding. 😆 You know what I mean. If their property and vehicle were clean inside and out, they were most likely approved. Many were leaving locations that were also Section 8, but perhaps the owner was selling.

    I would collect first and last month's rent, a deposit (equal to one month's rent), and a pet deposit from the tenant. I was receiving around $1K per month in rent.

    The tenants were responsible for all repairs (esp. in cases of negligence), and I conducted inspections monthly.

    In all those years, I only had one eviction for non-payespecially of their portion. I won the case when they didn't show up, but they moved out on their own by the court date.

    In fact, on my very first property near Ingram Park Mall, I initially didn’t want to rent to Section 8 tenants and opted for the general public. My first tenants were the worst I have ever experienced, and I quickly learned the eviction process. Because of that experience, I began renting to Section 8 tenants from then on.

    The key for me was being proactive: I screened all my tenants and conducted my due diligence prior to acceptance. I maintained a solid relationship with each tenant, even with the one I had to evict. Most stayed with me until I sold. So I didn't have too many turnover and get ready expenses.

    And to the point made by poster, #3, I agree: you have to know where you're investing.

    Back then, I also had quadplexes, and I even rented a one-bedroom apartment to Section 8. He, along with most, if not all, of my tenants, were great.

    These single-family homes, when purchased correctly, provided me with more profit than any other area of town.

    Today, I don't buy and hold, but I felt I had it down to a science. There was a seven-year waitlist for demand during those years; I'm not sure about the current situation, but I would want to do it again... However, today's numbers and inflation could make this poster's post pretty accurate.

    "Big" Henry

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