Why Class D/Section 8 returns are not as good in Real Life vs on Paper - Real example

Why Class D/Section 8 returns are not as good in Real Life vs on Paper - Real example

Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I often share this story with potential clients, investors, and those looking to start their real estate investment journey. My goal is simple: to illustrate why investing in lower-priced neighborhoods can be riskier and less rewarding than it seems.

I had a client who owned five properties in these areas, all rented through Section 8. He purchased them about seven years ago for an average of $80,000 each. Since they needed renovations, he invested roughly $30,000 per property to make them rent-ready—bringing his total investment to $110,000 per unit.

Once rented, he quickly encountered issues: non-payment, eviction filings, constant repairs, and tenant-related damages. Over seven years, he barely turned a profit. By the time he covered eviction costs, lost rental income, and re-renovated after tenant turnovers, any potential gains were erased.

Seven years later, his properties had appreciated to about $130,000 each—a 62% increase on paper. Sounds good, right?

Not exactly.

Before listing each property, he had to invest another $15,000–$30,000 just to refresh them for sale. Despite holding them for seven years without making any real profit, his total investment per property had now ballooned to roughly $140,000. And that’s before factoring in selling costs—commissions, taxes, and closing expenses. When the numbers were tallied, he had actually lost about $10,000–$20,000 per property.

Here’s the kicker: Had he simply bought the properties for $80,000, left them vacant for seven years, and only paid taxes and insurance (about $1,500 per year per property), his all-in cost would’ve been around $90,500. Even after spending $15,000 on a basic refresh, he could have sold for $130,000—without the headaches of evictions, repairs, and property management. And yet, after all expenses, he would have barely made a few thousand dollars.

So, despite the 62% appreciation, he still lost money. And that’s not even accounting for the countless hours spent managing the properties. He was burned out.

The Problem is two fold:

  1. Cash Flow on Paper ≠ Real Cash Flow
    Many investors assume rental income will flow smoothly, but that’s rarely the case in high-risk areas. In Philadelphia, for example, landlords cannot deny a Section 8 tenant based on credit score—only for violent crimes or drug offenses. That means even applicants with a 400 credit score may qualify, increasing the risk of evictions, non-payment, and high maintenance costs. The projected returns often don’t materialize in real life.
  2. Appreciation Is Misleading in Low-Value Markets
    While values in these areas do rise, the percentage gains are deceiving due to low starting values. So even a whopping 62% increase is only 50k of a 80k property. 
  3. What baffles me most is how easily people jump into these investments in unfamiliar neighborhoods - especially out of state! It’s like choosing to invest in a friend’s startup instead of the S&P 500—just because the startup promises big returns at a lower entry point. The logic doesn’t hold up...


Let’s compare this with another investor who took a different approach.

Seven years ago, Investor X purchased a duplex in a stronger market for $300,000. They invested $50,000 in cosmetic renovations, bringing their total investment to $350,000. From the start, they cash-flowed around $500/month, had minimal tenant issues, and turned a profit year after year with little management hassle. Keep in mind rents also went up and opportunities to refinance were also available - elevating that figure. 

Today, that duplex is worth $475,000–$500,000. If they sell, they barely need to renovate because the demand is high for high quality RE. Their appreciation profit alone is nearly $100,000, and that’s not even counting rental income earned over the years. With 100k there's plenty left over after commissions and closing costs are paid.

Don’t chase high cash flow and "too good to be true" returns. If an investment looks too good to be true, it probably is. And please stop listening to gurus and paying them. it is their job to "sell" you something, not build a relationship with you. Its a lot harder to sell a $15,000 course that's titled: Invest in high quality assets and build solid equity vs "Passive income while you sleep - how section 8 helped me build a $100k/m portfolio"

Good luck!

Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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Investor · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
1y

I have been preaching this on BP for years. Fewer but better properties. Unfortunately, many new investors drool over how many crapboxes they can buy and brag to their friends about owning. After ignoring advice, their next post is often, “How do I evict my non paying tenant?” Or the always popular, “My tenant moved out and stole my washer, dryer, water heater and light fixtures!!!”

See this reply in the discussion

154 Replies

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  • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
    1y

    Now you are just embarrassing yourself.

    Did you know... uh.... if .... uh ..... that... doc prep... 

    You take care. 

    L. Thomas

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Lucas Thomas:

      Now you are just embarrassing yourself.

      Did you know... uh.... if .... uh ..... that... doc prep... 

      You take care. 

      L. Thomas


       Lucas you obviously have not done deals in PA or Baltimore city or the like .. transaction costs to third parties are very high like Stuart talks about its not the same in many other markets.. but PA and BAlt is easy 5k per transactions just to pay state and city transfer tax's  school tax etc. 

  • Investor · Bucks County · Member since 2023 · 196 posts · 156 votes
    1y

    I would imagine Alan's assumptions are statistically the norm. Most clinical psychologists are not living in MHP's. It seems those who are in favor of these lower cost property types are going to argue their positions no matter what just as those who are opposed to it whether it be using the anomaly tenant as an example or refusing to acknowledge that certain property expenses cost the same whether it's a **** box or more expensive property. Those who appear to be successful haven't been able to explain away how they actually cope with costs. Reminds me of that guy Bob in Cleveland who posted daily about how he was making money hand over fist settling on new properties almost daily from some vacation compound and turned out to be a fake 

  • Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 716 posts · 313 votes
    1y

    What I found on owning rentals long term is I keep a good relationship with the folks who I need to keep up the properties ,roofers ,plumbers ,electricians  etc...This can add up to thousands of dollars per job .I make them part of my family vibe if possible .

    For a  long time in my area  the 1% rule does not work .

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Jay Hinrichs Yes some states have transactional costs that are steeper than others but that's just one example. Besides transactional costs, there's cap ex that is also disproportionately expensive. Never mind the silly argument of whether the work looks "pretty" or not. When you look at any market individually and comapre the properties in the A vs. D locations within that market raw materials for the essentials cost the same (lumber, sheet rock, PVC, smoke detectors), the cost to pour sidewalk costs the same, the cost to replace a curb trap or water service line costs the same. Sure, you can get away with some low wage laborer to turn over your units and do a half hazard job painting or making repairs but some things can't be done or bought cheaper. @Lucas Thomas seems to beleive it can but that's clearly a trade secret he's keeping to himself :)

    • Member since 2025 · 7 posts · 8 votes
      1y

      @Stuart Udis Stuart - if you don't mind do you know of any zip codes that have potential to break into that B class? 

      To be transparent I own tons of D properties, some in C that I do believe can make the turnaround over time. But wanted to hear your input on it - you seem very well versed in Philadelphia. 

      Side story here - my great grandfather bought 5 homes in Harlem back in the early 1900s for $2,000 a pop. Who knew manhattan would turn what it turned into and now they're worth over $5m a piece. So I do have that bias that things can change - especially here on the east coast where it is really insanely expensive to live. 

      thank you in advance and thanks for your posts here on BP. 

  • Investor · Bucks County · Member since 2023 · 196 posts · 156 votes
    1y

    @Lucas Thomas Lol Jay is prob the foremost expert on these boards with credentials that can actually be corroborated. You on the other hand must've posted 10+ times on this forum topic alone and haven't been able to answer how you manage to keep fixed costs of owning real estate lower in your properties. So why don't you share with us how you spend less? We've been waiting for an answer and you haven't been able to supply a coherent explanation. Also as Jay noted (good recon!) you play the card of someone with no money and had to scratch and claw his way owning D properties but are investing significant amounts of cash into your projects. IN fact millions of dollars as downpayments.  Far more cash than almost everyone on these forums so something is off

    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Sebastian Bennett:

      @Lucas Thomas Lol Jay is prob the foremost expert on these boards with credentials that can actually be corroborated. You on the other hand must've posted 10+ times on this forum topic alone and haven't been able to answer how you manage to keep fixed costs of owning real estate lower in your properties. So why don't you share with us how you spend less? We've been waiting for an answer and you haven't been able to supply a coherent explanation. Also as Jay noted (good recon!) you play the card of someone with no money and had to scratch and claw his way owning D properties but are investing significant amounts of cash into your projects. IN fact millions of dollars as downpayments.  Far more cash than almost everyone on these forums so something is off 

       Yeah. You guys suck at Class D. That is what's off.  

      You could be the best "brain Surgeon" in the business and not be able to tell me how heart surgery works.  

      I only posted cause this particular thread caught my eye as its my class of the world.

      Next thing you gonna tell me is that Pawn shops, Title Loans, Payday Loans, mobile home parks, and liquor stores don't make money.

    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Lucas Thomas:
      Quote from @Sebastian Bennett:

      @Lucas Thomas Lol Jay is prob the foremost expert on these boards with credentials that can actually be corroborated. You on the other hand must've posted 10+ times on this forum topic alone and haven't been able to answer how you manage to keep fixed costs of owning real estate lower in your properties. So why don't you share with us how you spend less? We've been waiting for an answer and you haven't been able to supply a coherent explanation. Also as Jay noted (good recon!) you play the card of someone with no money and had to scratch and claw his way owning D properties but are investing significant amounts of cash into your projects. IN fact millions of dollars as downpayments.  Far more cash than almost everyone on these forums so something is off 

       Yeah. You guys suck at Class D. That is what's off.  

      You could be the best "brain Surgeon" in the business and not be able to tell me how heart surgery works.  

      I only posted cause this particular thread caught my eye as its my class of the world.

      Next thing you gonna tell me is that Pawn shops, Title Loans, Payday Loans, mobile home parks, and liquor stores don't make money.

      Check your fanboydom. You lost your right to talk when you used the "S" word. 
  • Investor · Bucks County · Member since 2023 · 196 posts · 156 votes
    1y

    @Alan Asriants Since Temple hired the former Drexel president who was known for being very focused on developing real estate relationships around campus doesn't that provide greater optimism? I assume he will try to implement the same strategy?

  • Yakir AloniPro Member
    Member since 2023 · 51 posts · 19 votes
    1y

    I know a good website for section 8 it's called affordable.com I think you know that also there I can check or filter tennet they have voucher for what I ask for my rent.. so for example if I ask $2500 and they can get it $2000 form the pha the tennet need to come with the rest $500 correct?? So no matter what I need to take care that I have tennet that get most of the amount I'm asking from the pha every months and then I will never have any issues with payment 

  • Joseph ODonovanPro Member
    Property Manager · Ridley, PA · Member since 2017 · 427 posts · 449 votes
    1y

    I'll play devils advocate here. It appears your client made many mistakes over the course of these purchases. 1. He overpaid for the properties. $80k purchase price with roughly $50k in rehab and subsequent rehabs puts his cost basis at $130k. 2. He did a terrible job at vetting his tenants. Contrary to popular belief, Section 8 tenants can be very responsible. Knowing how to spot the responsible tenants can be worth it's weight in gold. 

  • Real Estate Agent · San DIego · Member since 2019 · 177 posts · 185 votes
    1y

    Also, can somebody please tell me what the "S" word is?  Slumlord?

    • Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes
      1y
      Quote from @JJ P.:

      Also, can somebody please tell me what the "S" word is?  Slumlord?


       Don't say the S word.

      I've done terrible things to people who called me that.  

      :)

  • Investor · Bucks County · Member since 2023 · 196 posts · 156 votes
    1y

    @Lucas Thomas Ah so it comes out now. After singing D class real estate's praises repeatedly and refusing to answer how you cover the expenses now you say you've made clients and friends wealthy off D class real estate and you are looking to coach up others now....why not just be honest about your motives from the start. 

  • Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes
    1y

    They have their place.  I would say, it really depends on the state and city laws over the section 8 tenant.  We've inherited some of them over the years and it's a toss-up.  As with everything, really do a good job in checking their background and making sure they have the ability to pay the rent. You also have fair housing issues to be concerned about.  If you are in NYC, most of NJ or Philly, be very very careful on who you accept.  

    I will go one further and if you are dealing with section 8 properties to NOT hire a real estate agent.  Hire either a reliable property management company (not a one person shop), or do the checks yourself.

    A few years ago, we give this real estate agent a shot as a leasing agent for a converted building.  The final straw was when she was pushing (for fair housing) that a blind kid and his brother were qualified to rent an apartment on a three story walkup building in Newark.

    She claimed that if we didn't accept them, it would be a fair housing violation.  She said she checked everything out and all is legit.  So I checked the two out and the older brother gave fake paystubs, his former house was fake (the address was to a NJ state prison), and the landlord was Veolia (water company).  His landlord's e-mail address was the customer service email address for Veolia.

    Truly, you cannot make this sh!t up.  With over 40 years of experience, I can usually (sadly not always) sniff out bullsh!t; and this one stunk since I heard of it.  She was promptly fired as incompetent.

    Section 8 is a different type of animal.  We have two in Stamford which are wonderful and usually take care of the place.  You just need to check very carefully as they have little options and will do what they feel is necessary in order to secure the home.  On their end, it looks like survival.  On our end, it's just money.

  • Member since 2022 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    9mo

    Just more AI slop, it's enough already. 

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