The Truth about Wholesaling!

The Truth about Wholesaling!

Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

There are so many people and companies out there who claim to be wholesalers and many more newbies who claim to want to start out in wholesaling as a means to get started in the biz.

Let me tell you about a recent experience with a so-called wholesale deal: You be the judge too!
A property was offered to me as a wholesale purchase.
It was offered at $270k with only $10k in rehab (so claimed the wholesaler) and the exit value they provided was $350k. With these numbers, the deal is at 80% of value which is pretty much the most I could pay. I explained that the exit price appeared to be on the high side (just from my expert knowledge of the area) and that $10k in rehab is pretty rare. I was then told that they may be willing to sell to me at $260k (so obviously they had at least $20k in mark-up at their OG price, which by the way is fine if the deal had a good spread, this one was bare)
With that reduction in mind, I went to the property.
It was very close to the freeway and the freeway noise could be heard quite loudly from the yard and slightly from the inside with all doors closed. This decreases values some what. Next, I found that the condition of the property was no where close to $10k in minor rehab. The kitchen had no place for a refrigerator with the current layout and it was poorly designed. The cabinets appeared to be newer, but done cheap and laid out poorly. The countertops needed replacement to granite, and new kitchen appliances. All flooring needed to be replaced, there was some foundation issues from the earthquake of 94' (Northridge quake), the bathroom was in need of a full gut and rehab new, all bedrooms needed new light fixtures, closet doors, and some electrical upgrades, plus the driveway needed to be re-surfaced and the chain-link fence removed and replaced with a more appropriate wood fencing for curb appeal. Both interior and exterior needed paint, and all windows should be replaced new (requiring some minor stucco repairs as well.)
After my evaluation, it was determined that the exit value was $300k ($319k as the max high list point) and the rehab was $30k and could be $35k.
At a $260k purchase and $30k rehab with $310k exit, this deal is at 93.5% As such, it is an oxymoron to use the word deal to describe this investment. I only pray that some sucker does not get screwed on this property.

The moral of the story: To be a true wholesaler, you must give out true and accurate figures, otherwise you make a bad name for yourself.

To be a true wholesaler you need these 3 main ingredients:
1. The ability to contract RE at great discounts.
2. The ability to build a real buyer's list (real cash buyers with a real proof of funds)
3. Ability to evaluate your market and ability to peg rehab numbers. Both of these require a vast knowledge of the local market conditions and the know-how to quote repair items.
Without ALL 3 of these items, you CAN NOT be a successful wholesaler.
To add a 4th item, you should be honest, provide accurate numbers, and provide as much due diligence to your potential buyers as possible. This will allow you to keep your buyers coming back for more deals.

669Reply
9,331 views

Most Popular Reply

Member since 2010 · 16 posts · 124 votes
15y

Maybe they are a new company that have ambition but lack some experience in evaluation. I hope you left the same results you described in your post on their website or emailed them what you found. Maybe it will give them some insight as to what to do/not to do before putting another property like this on the market. All of us begin making dumb mistakes and misjudgements, it's only bad when we ignore feedback from those who can offer wisdom.

See this reply in the discussion

911 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Just closed on a wholesale where we sold a multi unit to a buyer with a CONVENTIONAL loan. Took three weeks start to finish for a higher payday than a cash buyer would have offered.

    Anything is possible with the right people and the right mindset.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    I don't think I've posted here since the first or second page.

    I'm guessing there are many who say this is hogwash and then we get homerun stories.

    No one hits a homerun in any strategy without having a very good grasp of conventional thinking, the basics in RE, I have had my share.

    Look to those who claim success in this, do they offer mentoring, coaching, any program or other agenda in promoting this very narrow sliver or RE transactions?

    I've "wholesaled" deals on the phone, never walked into the property, sat at my desk and put other owners in a property with a contract within a week and closing usually within 4 to 5 weeks. This is absolutely minor league stuff, but it is not easy unless you already know buyers very well.

    For those searching for properties, driving for dollars will usually be a waste of time. A meter reader or a postal worker or the delivery guy at a pizza shop can tell you where vacant houses are.

    There are cases where you find a 24 unit apt building and only have a short list of buyers where you know it's a good deal, then you do some searching and find another buyer, then do the deal. These in reality are rare, they are not something for some newbie or even a 5 year operator to try to do as their main business in most markets, you will waste your time and starve trying to go elephant hunting.

    Getting stuck or even trying to start in one strategy is a big mistake, start with the basics, get a good foundation of conventional transactions, how retail works, from there you can begin to modify aspects of a situation to employ tactics that can make a deal. No more rant, glad we got such a popular thread but I have no idea why it is. :)

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    I'm guessing there are many who say this is hogwash and then we get homerun stories.

    No one hits a homerun in any strategy without having a very good grasp of conventional thinking, the basics in RE, I have had my share.

    Look to those who claim success in this, do they offer mentoring, coaching, any program or other agenda in promoting this very narrow sliver or RE transactions?

    I've "wholesaled" deals on the phone, never walked into the property, sat at my desk and put other owners in a property with a contract within a week and closing usually within 4 to 5 weeks. This is absolutely minor league stuff, but it is not easy

    Agreed, hitting a homerun your first plate appearance is certainly not going to happen all that often, though I don't see anyone here claiming that. I for one have no mentoring to sell or books to sell on the subject of wholesaling, so all my advice is from experience and in an effort to help others through this maze when they start. Wholesaling can be a very successful strategy if done correctly, just as any other RE strategy.

    I agree too that though this is not easy, it is also not rocket science and minor leaguers can succeed at it.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Most never get out of the minors, if they can make it that far. You might make a living for a season cleaning bats or chalking the field, but to stay in the game you'll need much more than a strategy of hitting singles. :)

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y

    Regardless if that first statement is true or not, I don't think it really matters as far as the purpose of this thread goes. Simply put, IF one intends to wholesale, they need to know what is involved and all the aspects of successful wholesaling.

    I also believe that anyone with the proper education can make a good living for life by just hitting singles.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Agreed, someone with a good education. Singles was a figure of speech as opposed to a double, triple or homerun, but yes, you can do smaller deals every week and do very, very well.

    If the spirit of this thread was to spin wholesaling being the best thing since sliced bread, sorry for the interruption. It's just one slice of what can be done to make money in RE, it's not always the easiest, not always accomplished in simple steps, takes much more knowledge sometimes, is a limited market as to inventory and buyers and if newbies are selling to old savvy investors their profit might be rather limited. Just my truth in this aspect.

    Can something come along and you work out a 100K profit, I'm sure you can, but not everyone can and such deals carry luck with them, right place, right time stuff, might be a 24 unit multi to yank a deal down like that. Sure won't be with some $125K single family, I'd think that's obvious.

    I think everyone knows I'm all for a good education and the ability to work any type of deal and not get stuck in some niche, you're just leaving money on the table trying to do only one or two things. :)

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    If the spirit of this thread was to spin wholesaling being the best thing since sliced bread, sorry for the interruption. It's just one slice of what can be done to make money in RE, it's not always the easiest, not always accomplished in simple steps, takes much more knowledge sometimes,

    Well, I started this thread and although it was many pages ago when it started, clearly I did not make it out to be the glamorous method the gurus seem to make it, on the contrary, I pointed out many of the common mistakes and mis-perceptions that investors make in this area in the effort to educate and avoid the same mistakes. I think this thread has accomplished that for many BP members.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    I hope so too, Will. :)

  • Real Estate Investor · Norcross, GA · Member since 2014 · 2 posts · 2 votes
    12y

    This thread is fantastic. I'm new around here and am glad that this was literally the first thing I read. As my small way of giving back I thought I'd share my own TL;DR of common investor complaints about wholesalers that I noted while reading with all my wholesale newbie brethren:

    • Inaccurate repair estimates
    • No wiggle room or ‘spread’ for profit after wholesale fee and price
    • Spamming them offers that DO NOT fit their current criteria
    • Not understanding the market
    • Trying to make more than fair market value on a property
    • Don’t take the time to build relationships with their buyers
    • Don't know how to properly valuate a property
    • Don't know all the factors that devalue a property (too close to hwy, etc.)
    • Don't analyze comps and come up with your own ARV's
    • A good wholesaler should provide photos and/or an itemized list of repairs. That way, the rehabber can plug in their own numbers based on the photos and itemized list.
    • Worrying about “cash on cash” rather than doing a discounted cash flow analysis for more accurate numbers
    • Being a total Newb! ;-)

    Thanks to all who participate here, I'm learning SO much. I can't get enough of this place.

    *edit: commas and such...

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y

    Great bullet points, if one concentrates on doing each of those correctly, one can be successful.

  • Marc RamsayPro Member
    Investor · Ojochal, Costa Rica · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 164 votes
    12y

    I don't know why I hadn't spotted this thread before, but it sucked me in and I read it all the way through in one go. My eyes hurt...

    @Will Barnard must have gotten a little frustrated as some of the same points kept reappearing and he'd have to state the same line about the point of this thread. I got it by page 2, but anyways... :)

    I have had some similar issues with wholesalers sending me stuff with some pretty big errors in what I would call an acceptable ARV and rehab estimates. What I also look at is ADOM for the area and if its over 60 days I really make sure everything else is great about it. I have been sent some 'deals' in markets that had ADOM of over 1 year! Ah, not interested if I'm doing flips.

    I just did one deal through a wholesaler and I'll let you know how it goes when everything is done and sold. I am having a hard time finding some good wholesalers in the Cleveland market so I am having to expand my network and look for the deals myself, which is harder to do when you don't live in the market.

    Onward Ho!!! (into the Wild West of Wholesaling!!)

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 462 posts · 294 votes
    12y

    First and foremost, let me preface this post for this thread. This is not a perfect answer as there are too many variables to cover. With experience, you will be able to cut your time by more than half. So let's try to tackle a couple of basic themes on this thread. There are obviously more but the two I am interested in are as follow:

    How do you analyze a real estate wholesale deal?

    and

    Can I make a viable living wholesaling real estate?

    Finding the right property truly comes down to the numbers (location may apply)... For investors that is. Investors do not get attached to properties. They are attached to making money. LOL! Sounds simple, but is it not what the wholesaler is in it for? Of course, to most extent. We all don't like working for free.

    Once you find the right owner/seller you have to build that relationship with them giving you a chance in the end, to make a profit. Without a contract, circumvention may be inevitable and either the deal dies or someone else snatches it up. Some may even go behind your back (circumvention) and steal the deal. This is a dog eat dog business. So obviously, it will take some time to build your buyer's list. Or at least a buyer's list you feel comfortable with.

    Most deals may fall through from lack of proper due diligence and greed.

    (Greedy Side-Track)

    In the movie "Scarface", Tony Montana's motive is evident from the get-go, "In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women."

    In another famous "Scarface" scene the most important quote in the movie is provided when Tony Montana has just earned a spot at the table of Frank Lopez at his usual hang out. Frank begins to preach to Tony about the rules of engagement when dealing in their Hot Shot Delivery of... Shall we say, the Import and Export business. Frank proceeds to share his top three lessons but we need not go further than lesson number one: "Don't underestimate the other guy's greed!" [laughing]...

    (Okay, back on track)

    So know who you are doing business with. And even then, make sure you lock up the deal in advance before trying to market your property. By the way, I hate Ghost Marketing. That is for another subject and post but let me say, it can ruin your reputation.

    As a wholesaler, you have to be honest and have integrity. It doesn't take much to get black-listed by other investors because of unethical practices or again, greed. More so, incompetence.

    Let's move on.

    Let's say you have a variety of half a dozen good buyers. You should search for properties in areas you are familiar with and properties your buyers will buy in. This is important because it will cut down your work load. Especially, if you are reviewing many properties. Not to mention, more successful in closing those deals. Sometimes, your buyers are your competition. But we'll assume you got the jump on a decent property before they did and now want.

    Now assume we have the buyers and the seller on point. Let's estimate a generic deal by using generic methods. We will use a subdivision example. In regards to Comparative Market Analysis (CMA), there are areas, zip codes, wedges, grids, etc. But we'll keep it simple.

    EXAMPLE: The Monticello Subdivision sells up-to-par homes at an average sold price of $100 per square foot. Also the average single family home in this subdivision is a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, and 2 car garage (3/2/2). An average single story at 1,500 square feet places this home at an average price of $150,000 per home in this specific subdivision the last three to six months of activity history.

    Now besides sold properties, we need to also look at cancelled, expired, active, and pending (Price Changes may apply at times) properties in this subdivision.

    Why?

    Let's take a look at the following info. Assume these are apples to apples and the last three to six months have produced six properties per category below. Let's also assume we have a home you found which meets these specs, 3/2/2 @ 1,500'' (subject home). Keep in mind we are using averages. Prices and square footage may be lower or higher. I usually use a +/- 20% for square footage. In this example, I would not go below a three bedroom but may go as high as five. It truly depends on the amount of CMA's I have available. In this case, four bedrooms would be the highest at six comps per category.

    Let's review - CMA Summary:

      ·SOLD: 3/2/2 @ 1,500'' @ $100/sq. ft.= $150K, Avg DOM - 30 days.

      ·CANCELLED: 3/2/2 @ 1,500'' @ $115/sq. ft.= $172K, Avg DOM -120 days.

      ·EXPIRED: 3/2/2 @ 1,500'' @ $112/sq. ft.= $168K, Avg DOM - 90 days.

      ·ACTIVE: 3/2/2 @ 1,500'' @ $110/sq. ft.= $165K, Avg DOM - 15 days.

      ·PENDING: 3/2/2 @ 1,500'' @ $105/sq. ft. = $158K, Avg DOM - 60 days.

      ·NOTE: I usually look at List Price/Sold Price Ratio %

    Once you have located the property, try determining the average price for the After Repair Value (ARV) conservatively. This is a safe method so you are not too low or too high on pricing your product. What do these numbers tell us about this subdivision? It tells us that if the average price does not fall in that sweet spot, it could take longer to sell subject home as the subdivision may only bear a certain price range or ceiling. Could it sell quickly for $140K? Absolutely, if property is up to par. Could it sell for $160? Absolutely, however it may take longer to find a certain buyer or unless the home has special or updated amenities to reflect a higher price. Not to mention, length of time to sell may be affected due to FSBO or a low/high producing Realtor.

    If I am wholesaling this property. I know without a shadow of doubt my After Repair Value is roughly $150K. Now in this example, my subject property/home is a pre-foreclosure. The owner has an existing mortgage which has 10 years left before it is paid in full. No liens and the note is $65K (an additional $5K - includes all costs, fees and arrears, etc) = $70K.

    Seller or Owner wants out and we want to buy... Or in our case, wholesale/assign.

    Let's assume you have estimated either from bids or second opinions from partners/contractors that the repairs + other costs necessary to bring this home up to par will run at $15K, $20K or $25K (bids contingent on level of renovation).

    As a wholesaler, I would use the highest bid at $25K plus another $5K = $30K (includes labor, material, holding, and closing costs). This is a conservative approach for a buyer I am potential targeting.

    Now without getting into whether the buyer can do a "Subject To/Quit Claim Deed/FSBO, etc..." by paying what is in arrears ($5K) and taking over the note, not to mention our assignment fee or wholesale profit. Let's just say this is a clean sales transaction.

    So now we have a total purchase price of $70K and the repairs + at $30K, equaling $100K

    Now we have to determine the buyer we are going to sell to. Normally, there are three types of buyers (could be other types) with three types of costs to their money.

      ·Buyer #1 (Hard Money @ avg. range of 12%-18% plus points) - 65%-70%

      ·Buyer #2 (Private Money @ avg. 10%-14%) - 70%-80%

      ·Buyer #3 (CASH) - 65%-85%

    Let's just be safe and use the 70% Rule.

    $150,000 (ARV) X 70% (LTV) = $105,000

    Our Wholesale Profit on this specific property should hover around $5K. Does it mean you could not get $7K-$10K? Absolutely, you can. You just have to know your buyers and their numbers.

    Be real with your numbers and use a conservative approach. Don't take sold comps which are at a price of $160K-$165K (in this example above) and low repair bids (i.e. $15K) to push your price up trying to create a cushion for a bigger profit.

    Would you rather make a one-time fee of $10K or would you rather make several sales at $5K or more for deals to come while building your reputation.

    It is about being honest and about building relationships. Connections mean nothing if you are greedy or are trying to get one over on someone. Even worse, you try the shotgun approach (zero/half "A" due diligence) and throw up any deal with any number hoping one sticks. We call these Joker-Brokers in the business. They usually hover over the internet and regurgitate info while padding each deal. As if we cannot stumble upon the truth.

    Finally, let's say you have a greedy investor who rebuts your numbers. Then he will have to either back it up with evidence or scratch him off the list and move onto greener pastures and better investors.

    Secure a contract for at least 90 days or keep that expiration date blank. This way it gives you time to do your due diligence or find a buyer. Of course, you may not have time or may even have to create time by stopping foreclosure or other.

    I've stopped foreclosure auctions through a TRO or even paid what's in arrears to buy me more time. Some auctions have been stopped the day of.

    Anyways, I hope this helps. It is generic. No one can post all scenarios on this forum. I could probably write a book on this but this is just to help those who are new or want a basic view of analyzing a deal. Most info may be tied to the MLS but lack thereof doesn't negate your ethics and due diligence.

    Remember for you (the wholesaler) it is about the relationships and for the buyers (the investors) it is about the numbers. Walk both lines on an even keel and you can close a few deals a year or more to help supplement other deals or pay bills.

    Could you make a living at this? Possibly. It depends on your your cost of living as well as the time, effort and sacrifice you put into it. There are many cautions with all the above but I thought I give this post some hope into analyzing a wholesale deal in a specific category without bogging it down with the flashing yellow lights of terms & definitions. Not to mention, keeping a simple honest approach.

    That's my two pesos.

    If it sucks respond.

    If you stressed your eyes or fell asleep, my bad.

    If it helps a little, then VOTE MY POST! ;)

    But in the end, I hope this truly helps.

    Big Henry

  • Real Estate Investor · Lubbock, TX · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 17 votes
    12y

    As an experienced wholesaler I have to say that the numbers in your story were not very strong and your mostly correct in reevaluation. The thing I would like to bring into the thought light here is the cost of repairs, I have been in construction and also a project manager for a successful rehab company and I can tell you most of the buyers on my cash buyers list always try to come back and tell me it will cost much more then what I have told them when I tell them the numbers. Its funny, because I see it almost every time. Its just a way to try and negotiate the price down with any skill. I guess what I'm saying is every rehabber/landlord out there have different levels of work and as a wholesaler we cannot know exactly what people will spend or want to spend on repairs. I personally use the sq ft x $ approach to give my numbers (Ex. light repairs $5 medium $10 medium heavy $15 and full rehab $20 x the sq ft of the house). Im always trying to leave 25% to 30% profit margins after the repair cost to my buyers.

    Sometimes I don't think investor cash buyers understand the time, money and efforts we wholesalers put in to find these great deals and they just think ...uuugh your making $xxxx amount and all your doing is just transferring a contract... and so sometimes I just have to laugh at those type of guys. My opinion is if you Mr. Investor can make this deal work for you at my price then lets sign a contract, if not thanks for looking and maybe the next one will work better for you.

    #lovewholesalinghouses

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 462 posts · 294 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jeff Smith:
    As an experienced wholesaler I have to say that the numbers in your story were not very strong and your mostly correct in reevaluation. #lovewholesalinghouses

    Well Jeff, I was trying to keep it simple. Lol. But truth be told, even if we stick to my numbers as most deals reflect similar patterns. There are times the margins are tight. At times, it only takes one mistake or miscalculation to eliminate a profit.

    I've closed wholesale deals generating profits of $55K and $35K. However, it is not typical. Most deals may hover between $3K to $10K.

    In the end, the post is primarily to educate the process and promote a higher reputation among wholesalers. Regardless, if the numbers fluctuate between $25K, $50K or $75K... The mentality and approach should remain the same.

    Proper Due Diligence, Conservative Application and Honesty shall prevail into closing more deals.

    #lovewholesalinghousestoo
    #JustMyTwoPesos

    Big Henry

    PS - As for your cash buyers. It is typical. Most (not all) are very greedy. However, with the right deal, it can sometimes still payoff with those greedy fellas.

  • Real Estate Investor · Lubbock, TX · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 17 votes
    12y

    I liked your post Henry, My post was to the original post in the beginning of this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 462 posts · 294 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jeff Smith:
    I liked your post Henry, My post was to the original post in the beginning of this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

    Jeff,

    No problem buddy.

    We're one of the same my friend.

    This is how we all learn.

    BTW, PM me anytime.

    Big Henry

  • Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jeff Smith:
    As an experienced wholesaler I have to say that the numbers in your story were not very strong and your mostly correct in reevaluation. The thing I would like to bring into the thought light here is the cost of repairs, I have been in construction and also a project manager for a successful rehab company and I can tell you most of the buyers on my cash buyers list always try to come back and tell me it will cost much more then what I have told them when I tell them the numbers. Its funny, because I see it almost every time. Its just a way to try and negotiate the price down with any skill. I guess what I'm saying is every rehabber/landlord out there have different levels of work and as a wholesaler we cannot know exactly what people will spend or want to spend on repairs. I personally use the sq ft x $ approach to give my numbers (Ex. light repairs $5 medium $10 medium heavy $15 and full rehab $20 x the sq ft of the house). Im always trying to leave 25% to 30% profit margins after the repair cost to my buyers.

    Sometimes I don't think investor cash buyers understand the time, money and efforts we wholesalers put in to find these great deals and they just think ...uuugh your making $xxxx amount and all your doing is just transferring a contract... and so sometimes I just have to laugh at those type of guys. My opinion is if you Mr. Investor can make this deal work for you at my price then lets sign a contract, if not thanks for looking and maybe the next one will work better for you.

    #lovewholesalinghouses

    "I personally use the sq ft x $ approach to give my numbers (Ex. light repairs $5 medium $10 medium heavy $15 and full rehab $20 x the sq ft of the house). Im always trying to leave 25% to 30% profit margins after the repair cost to my buyers."

    I realize costs will vary from location to location but if you brought me a deal with the repairs being less than $20/sqft for anything much more than a pure carpet and paint rehab I would tell you that you were nuts and it would be WAY more than your estimates.

    The absolute cheapest rehab I have done was about $18.50/sqft and that was probably what I would think of as maybe the low end of medium repairs. This house was in great shape as it had burnt down and was rebuilt just a few years earlier. It got foreclosed on and was subsequently vandalized. Clearly someone going to steal the copper, but it was all Pex. They ended up cutting out the copper wire in the basement (More out of spite since not much copper there!) so it was unfinanceable. That was the major item. Other than that we didn't have to do the roof, the siding (other than a power wash), didn't really do any landscaping, didn't do the windows, didn't do the kitchen (other than appliances), didn't touch either bathroom, didn't do ANY flooring, didn't touch the heating system (other than a servicing which resulted in about $275 to fix something with a circulator on the boiler since it hadn't fired in ~2years), didn't intend on doing any plumbing (when we did fire up the boiler there was some leaks and resulted in an $1,800 change order [the only one of the job]), didn't even have to change any of the light fixtures as they were pretty close to what I would have bought anyway, it was on septic but it had a passed inspection so we didn't do anything with that either.

    Seriously what can you do for $5/sqft? In a 1,400 sqft house I would not even be able to paint (interior only), put down new carpet (not even taking into account I'd probably tile the kitchen and bath(s) for more cost then carpeting them), and put in a new 4 appliance suite of lower end SS appliances in the kitchen. This almost nothing rehab would be pushing $6/sqft for me.

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 462 posts · 294 votes
    12y

    I agree with Shaun. The least repair price per square foot I would estimate for a wholesale or resale would be $10-$15 (Low to Medium end), $20-$25 (Medium to High) and $30 + (High-End).

    Rental (I would reserve $5/sq. ft. for this grade)

    Under $100K (Lower)

    Average $150K (Medium)

    Over $200K (High)

    Honestly, it just depends. If you are serious about wholesaling and do have buyers who are active investor/rehabbers... Then ask to visit their properties under construction. Also visit their finished product. This will help you gauge each buyer's level of renovation in any given area.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    Just use integrity and be realistic when estimating rehab repairs to bring any property up to par.

    Just my two pesos.

    Big Henry

  • Mansfield, TX · Member since 2013 · 207 posts · 26 votes
    12y

    @Henry M. I am confused on some of your points Henry, you stated the majority of cash buyers you deal with are very greedy? I don't experience that at all. For instance lets say I have a property under contract and I market it at 45k. Lets say several investors are interested

    What typically happens is the first one or two people will put in their "offers" at 43k 42k etc to try and reduce the price a bit. Then I will have other people come in afterwords and they will go ahead and pull the trigger at 45k, and put down the non refundable deposit with me.

    I also black out how much I am making on the contract, and this is legal as long as you phrase the assignment of contract correctly, because it should not be a concern to the end buyer how much I am making if his numbers work, whether 5k or 15k profit.

    After the deposit is successfully received, I go ahead and send them the unblacked out copy of the contract that shows what I originally put the house under contract for, effectively showing my profit margin. If they have a problem with me making 15k, well they just gave me 3k in non refundable earnest money wired to my LLC. They don't back out at that point.

    But as I said, Ive probably only dealt with 1 "greedy" buyer or so, that was really trying to beat me up on the price even though I was offering the property at 73% less repairs. The very next guy that came into look at the house bought it on the spot because it was a great deal. The guy that was beating me up now had egg on his face because he missed a property that he wanted very badly and let a few grand stop his way.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
    Originally posted by @Jeff Smith:
    I personally use the sq ft x $ approach to give my numbers (Ex. light repairs $5 medium $10 medium heavy $15 and full rehab $20 x the sq ft of the house).

    I realize costs will vary from location to location but if you brought me a deal with the repairs being less than $20/sqft for anything much more than a pure carpet and paint rehab I would tell you that you were nuts and it would be WAY more than your estimates.

    The absolute cheapest rehab I have done was about $18.50/sqft and that was probably what I would think of as maybe the low end of medium repairs.

    Agreed. I can do a full interior cosmetic rehab in Atlanta for about $10-12/sf, and I'd be very surprised if it can be done much cheaper than that anywhere else in the country (without doing the work yourself or using uninsured subs).

    I don't think I've ever spent less than $10/sf on a rehab that was to be resold to a retail buyer, and it's generally closer to $12-14/sf in Atlanta. In Milwaukee, we're closing to $18/sf for cosmetic only. Those are the two markets I know best, but I think they're pretty representative of the low-end and mid-end markets when it comes to labor prices.

    Regardless, there's just too many variables (even other than location) when it comes to per-square-foot pricing. For example, using different contractors can halve or double the price; time of year can make a 50% difference in cost; materials used can make a 50% difference in cost; etc. Throw multiple of these variables together, and you could be looking at numbers that could be off by 3-4x by using per-square-foot pricing.

    Just my $.02...but I'd be pretty leary of a wholesaler using square pricing, and especially using numbers in the $5-10/sf range. I'd rather the wholesaler provide absolutely no rehab estimate whatsoever, and just let me determine it on my own.

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 462 posts · 294 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bill Mitchell:
    @Henry M. I am confused on some of your points Henry, you stated the majority of cash buyers you deal with are very greedy? I don't experience that at all. For instance lets say I have a property under contract and I market it at 45k. Lets say several investors are interested

    What typically happens is the first one or two people will put in their "offers" at 43k 42k etc to try and reduce the price a bit. Then I will have other people come in afterwords and they will go ahead and pull the trigger at 45k, and put down the non refundable deposit with me.

    I also black out how much I am making on the contract, and this is legal as long as you phrase the assignment of contract correctly, because it should not be a concern to the end buyer how much I am making if his numbers work, whether 5k or 15k profit.

    After the deposit is successfully received, I go ahead and send them the unblacked out copy of the contract that shows what I originally put the house under contract for, effectively showing my profit margin. If they have a problem with me making 15k, well they just gave me 3k in non refundable earnest money wired to my LLC. They don't back out at that point.

    But as I said, Ive probably only dealt with 1 "greedy" buyer or so, that was really trying to beat me up on the price even though I was offering the property at 73% less repairs. The very next guy that came into look at the house bought it on the spot because it was a great deal. The guy that was beating me up now had egg on his face because he missed a property that he wanted very badly and let a few grand stop his way.

    I did mention "not all"

    Not sure what the confusion is but most investors I've dealt with in the past have haggled or wanted to low ball any deal in general. This is not always the case.

    Not sure of any other point (considering you used plural) you were confused about. As for your methodology of contracting with investors and asking for deposit. I would never put any deposit down especially non refundable. Now if it is a "new" investor/buyer, possibly. If I have cash, I'll close within a week. Contingent on time of title search and insurance. Due diligence will take no more than 24-48 hours to consider whether I'm even interested.

    If you make that method work, then good for you.

    Here's the real question for you Bill... How many of these deals do you close a year like this..?

    Just curious, I'm wanting to tackle your approach in estimating a wholesale deal and whether this is just to supplement other avenues of real estate for you or even better your entire livelihood.

    Curious,

    Big Henry

  • Mansfield, TX · Member since 2013 · 207 posts · 26 votes
    12y

    @Henry M. I wholesaled part time in addition to my 9 to 5. 2013 was my first year, and I assigned 10 contracts that all closed.

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 462 posts · 294 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
    Originally posted by @Jeff Smith:
    I personally use the sq ft x $ approach to give my numbers (Ex. light repairs $5 medium $10 medium heavy $15 and full rehab $20 x the sq ft of the house).

    I realize costs will vary from location to location but if you brought me a deal with the repairs being less than $20/sqft for anything much more than a pure carpet and paint rehab I would tell you that you were nuts and it would be WAY more than your estimates.

    The absolute cheapest rehab I have done was about $18.50/sqft and that was probably what I would think of as maybe the low end of medium repairs.

    Agreed. I can do a full interior cosmetic rehab in Atlanta for about $10-12/sf, and I'd be very surprised if it can be done much cheaper than that anywhere else in the country (without doing the work yourself or using uninsured subs).

    I don't think I've ever spent less than $10/sf on a rehab that was to be resold to a retail buyer, and it's generally closer to $12-14/sf in Atlanta. In Milwaukee, we're closing to $18/sf for cosmetic only. Those are the two markets I know best, but I think they're pretty representative of the low-end and mid-end markets when it comes to labor prices.

    Regardless, there's just too many variables (even other than location) when it comes to per-square-foot pricing. For example, using different contractors can halve or double the price; time of year can make a 50% difference in cost; materials used can make a 50% difference in cost; etc. Throw multiple of these variables together, and you could be looking at numbers that could be off by 3-4x by using per-square-foot pricing.

    Just my $.02...but I'd be pretty leary of a wholesaler using square pricing, and especially using numbers in the $5-10/sf range. I'd rather the wholesaler provide absolutely no rehab estimate whatsoever, and just let me determine it on my own.

    I couldn't agree with this anymore. As for allowing any investor to determine on their own... This will happen either way. I believe J. Scott, you may mean with those you have built relationships with. Then again maybe not.

    Any new or veteran wholesaler should know their craft and estimating a fair market value in repairs is a key component to being successful.

    Great points J. Scott as usual.

    Big Henry

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 462 posts · 294 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bill Mitchell:
    @Henry M. I wholesaled part time in addition to my 9 to 5. 2013 was my first year, and I assigned 10 contracts that all closed.

    Congratulations Bill.

    I hope you are even more successful in 2014.

    How is your approach in estimating your wholesale deals?

    What do you believe makes you successful in assigning contracts to cash buyers?

    Big Henry

  • Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
    Originally posted by @Jeff Smith:
    I personally use the sq ft x $ approach to give my numbers (Ex. light repairs $5 medium $10 medium heavy $15 and full rehab $20 x the sq ft of the house).

    I realize costs will vary from location to location but if you brought me a deal with the repairs being less than $20/sqft for anything much more than a pure carpet and paint rehab I would tell you that you were nuts and it would be WAY more than your estimates.

    The absolute cheapest rehab I have done was about $18.50/sqft and that was probably what I would think of as maybe the low end of medium repairs.

    Agreed. I can do a full interior cosmetic rehab in Atlanta for about $10-12/sf, and I'd be very surprised if it can be done much cheaper than that anywhere else in the country (without doing the work yourself or using uninsured subs).

    I don't think I've ever spent less than $10/sf on a rehab that was to be resold to a retail buyer, and it's generally closer to $12-14/sf in Atlanta. In Milwaukee, we're closing to $18/sf for cosmetic only. Those are the two markets I know best, but I think they're pretty representative of the low-end and mid-end markets when it comes to labor prices.

    Regardless, there's just too many variables (even other than location) when it comes to per-square-foot pricing. For example, using different contractors can halve or double the price; time of year can make a 50% difference in cost; materials used can make a 50% difference in cost; etc. Throw multiple of these variables together, and you could be looking at numbers that could be off by 3-4x by using per-square-foot pricing.

    Just my $.02...but I'd be pretty leary of a wholesaler using square pricing, and especially using numbers in the $5-10/sf range. I'd rather the wholesaler provide absolutely no rehab estimate whatsoever, and just let me determine it on my own.

    I do actually like to have wholesalers give a repair estimate as well as their ARV. Not because I would ever use these numbers but it helps to weed stuff out pretty easy.

    I'd say about 80% of the time I can eliminate a "deal" from consideration just by plugging in their given numbers. And I mean these are so far off that it would be almost impossible to work even if they are low on ARV and really high on repairs. Of those ones that are at least within spitting distance of working I'll verify the ARV since that is faster and easier and once I pull that number back to reality I can usually eliminate 80% of the stuff left.

    So I'd guess around 4% of wholesale leads I see it is even worth attempting to verify rehab numbers.

    Typical scenario at this point is that I go and get my estimates which is way higher than what they said and I tell them the most I can pay, which most of the time is less then their actual contract price (forget the fee!).

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.