First Wholesale Deal

First Wholesale Deal

Wholesaler · Huntersville, NC · Member since 2015 · 39 posts · 21 votes

Hi Guys ~ 

I have a property under contract, that will be my first wholesale deal, barring any disasters. 

The house is an extreme hoarder house. The heirs inherited the property. One of the siblings had lived in it for years and filled it up to knee level in junk. He is no longer living there and it is now vacant. According to the owner, the city threatened to condemn it, but they have not moved to do so as of yet. It is a 2 Bedroom 1 Bath, with 1450 Square Feet of Living Area. Property sits on 0.52 Acre. 

I got the property under contract at what I believe is a good price. It's just under the tax assessed Land Value. 

I am meeting with potential Buyers this week. I want to make sure I market the property at a good price, so both my Buyer and I will walk away with a great deal. 

Here are the numbers so far:

ARV = 120,000

This is based on comps for 3 Br properties sold within past year, within 0.5 miles. The home is in the city's "Historic District". I would assume buyer would make it into 3 and at least 1.5 bath, given the size of the property. If it was kept as a two bedroom ARV would only be about 80,000.


Purchase Price: $11,500 . Contract signed with Seller. $10 Due Diligence, 30 day period. $10 EMD.

Rehab Estimate: $50,000 . (This is a very rough estimate for a full rehab. For a 1450 square foot house, I think a lot can be done for 50K.)

Asking Price: 34,000 (ARV 120,000 x .70 = 84,000 - Rehab 50,000 = 34,000 )

Desired Wholesale Fee/Profit: 22,500. (Selling Price 34000 - Purchase Price $11,500 = $22,500 )

Is this a good asking price? Buyer should stand to profit at least 25,000 for the Flip. 

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*This link comes directly from our calculators, based on information input by the member who posted.

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Flipper/Rehabber · Beverly Hills, CA · Member since 2019 · 6 posts · 11 votes
6y

@Oren Markowitz congrats on your deal my brotha don’t feed in to people that try to down you. Keep it going and continue your success man!

See this reply in the discussion

71 Replies

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  • Contractor · Eureka, CA · Member since 2015 · 100 posts · 64 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @John Thedford:

    They are not competition. They are predators. Licensed agents and REAL buyers are competition.

    It's understandable you would come to the authorities here at the Biggerpockets Forum first before calling it into the Property Predators Anonymous 24-HR Global Hotline. Great job, you've saved us all from this man working out kinks in his deal. 

  • Wholesaler · Huntersville, NC · Member since 2015 · 39 posts · 21 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @John Thedford:

    They are not competition. They are predators. Licensed agents and REAL buyers are competition.

    It's understandable you would come to the authorities here at the Biggerpockets Forum first before calling it into the Property Predators Anonymous 24-HR Global Hotline. Great job, you've saved us all from this man working out kinks in his deal. 

    Hilarious Zack 😂

  • Northport, NY · Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    @Oren Markowitz

    Congratulations on acquiring Your first wholesale deal.

    Way to start off the New Year 2020

    Do whatever it takes and get it done.

  • Member since 2020 · 9 posts · 4 votes
    6y

    @Oren Markowitz I would like to know how it turns out. As someone new to this I'm trying to get a fix on different strategies, but I know it will be time soon to jump in the pool.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @John Thedford:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Oren Markowitz From what I have seen this guy serially harasses wholesalers lol, out of some personal axe to grind I guess? Not sure, but I wouldn't take it personally.

    When you have seen and met victims of these types you might feel differently. These types VICTIMIZE sellers. Would you be happy if your mom or sister signed a contract with this guy? Better yet....would YOU sign a contract like that? 

    Owners and several family members were happy to meet with me and sign the contract, because they knew the alternative was to get nothing and watch their home get destroyed by the city. I wold lovee to see you run over there and represent them as their sellers' agent. What are the chances? What value would they get from you and your stellar Broker representation?  

    In all honesty, IF you assign/sell this house for your $34,000, I would argue that had an agent listed the home on the market, your same buyer would have come in, and paid the seller the same $34,000... in that scenario the seller would have made a significant amount more money than signing with you. Now obviously they didn't do that, but anytime a wholesaler is making more than standard commissions (6% or so), the truth is that house on the market would have sold for that same price (probably more). I say that from the perspective of someone who buys off the MLS and from wholesalers.

    A great example, I bought a home from a wholesaler. The seller walked away with $68,000. Had they listed it on the MLS with an agent and I bought it, they would have walked away with $86,480... sellers don't know this, so obviously the wholesaler gets the lead and the deal.

  • Wholesaler · Huntersville, NC · Member since 2015 · 39 posts · 21 votes
    6y

    @John Thedford

    You are the one deceiving readers on here by putting out misinformation.

    A contract assignment is a legal procedure where one person or party involved in a contract hands over their contractual obligations to a third party. ... The specifics of a contract assignment largely depends on the contract. However, no matter how a contract is assigned, the original terms and obligations still apply.

  • Lender · Orlando, FL · Member since 2016 · 340 posts · 115 votes
    6y

    @Oren Markowitz

    First congrats on your first potential deal.

    I think your resale price is great.

    Also it sounds like you’ve structured a great deal with plenty of time. Glad to look into your deal in detail if you want to PM me the rest of the information. A next step would be getting the title ordered and marketing your deal for resale.

    If you do not have it under contract with the second side buyer inside of a week, I’d start looking at options to partner with another wholesaler who can run the dispo for you. It’s better to make a quick $10K while learning than not.

    P.S. if the deal really has that much juice in it, and if you have the capital, you might consider taking it on as a renovation and purchasing it. Hardly ever see anything from $10 to $180K without extremely extensive improvements, but it happens!

  • Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Now, I only reading this to see how long this thread will go! 😳😂 

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Brian Pulaski:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @John Thedford:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Oren Markowitz From what I have seen this guy serially harasses wholesalers lol, out of some personal axe to grind I guess? Not sure, but I wouldn't take it personally.

    When you have seen and met victims of these types you might feel differently. These types VICTIMIZE sellers. Would you be happy if your mom or sister signed a contract with this guy? Better yet....would YOU sign a contract like that? 

    Owners and several family members were happy to meet with me and sign the contract, because they knew the alternative was to get nothing and watch their home get destroyed by the city. I wold lovee to see you run over there and represent them as their sellers' agent. What are the chances? What value would they get from you and your stellar Broker representation?  

    In all honesty, IF you assign/sell this house for your $34,000, I would argue that had an agent listed the home on the market, your same buyer would have come in, and paid the seller the same $34,000... in that scenario the seller would have made a significant amount more money than signing with you. Now obviously they didn't do that, but anytime a wholesaler is making more than standard commissions (6% or so), the truth is that house on the market would have sold for that same price (probably more). I say that from the perspective of someone who buys off the MLS and from wholesalers.

    A great example, I bought a home from a wholesaler. The seller walked away with $68,000. Had they listed it on the MLS with an agent and I bought it, they would have walked away with $86,480... sellers don't know this, so obviously the wholesaler gets the lead and the deal.

     Any legal licensed agent could perform a LEGITIMATE SERVICE even if they wanted to charge a 15% listing fee. Furthermore, the seller would not be misled that their house was sold.
    Signing contracts with no intention, ability, and funds to close is FRAUD.
    Marketing properties you do not own, unless licensed, is illegal in most states.
    Misleading sellers as to value and intentions...is..FRAUD.
    This "buyer" bring nothing to the table and the seller will lose regardless of the outcome of this deal.

    The State of Florida calls people that get sucked in by these types "VICTIMS".

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Ola Dantis:

    Now, I only reading this to see how long this thread will go! 😳😂 

    If I guess the correct number of posts what do I win? 
    BP lifetime pass?
    Free house?
    Free kit on how to broker real estate with no license or money (oops---more than qualified on both fronts)!

  • Central, MN · Member since 2015 · 148 posts · 184 votes
    6y

    This thread is very interesting... can we PLEASE stop painting every wholesaler with the FRAUD/SCAM brush?  Also, can we stop anointing everyone with  a license as GENUINE because neither are true. 

    John- I'm curious, as a Hard Money Lender are your transparent about what other hard money lenders offer for services, fees, how many points they charge, interest rate? I mean, I'd hate to see a HML victimize an uneducated borrower by not telling them what they could get elsewhere-- which is essentially one of the things you despise about wholesalers.

  • Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @John Thedford:
    Originally posted by @Ola Dantis:

    Now, I only reading this to see how long this thread will go! 😳😂 

    If I guess the correct number of posts what do I win? 
    BP lifetime pass?
    Free house?
    Free kit on how to broker real estate with no license or money (oops---more than qualified on both fronts)!

    You get a FREE wholesaler course 🤣 

  • Wholesaler · Huntersville, NC · Member since 2015 · 39 posts · 21 votes
    6y

     Any legal licensed agent could perform a LEGITIMATE SERVICE even if they wanted to charge a 15% listing fee. Furthermore, the seller would not be misled that their house was sold. 
    Signing contracts with no intention, ability, and funds to close is FRAUD.  

    You pretend to know anything about my or anyone else's "ability" or funds. 


    Marketing properties you do not own, unless licensed, is illegal in most states.


    I am not marketing a property, I am marketing a contract which is 100 % Legal . More misinformation 


    Misleading sellers as to value and intentions...is..FRAUD.

    I haven't mislead seller on value or intention. I was upfront from the start. More baseless accusations.


    This "buyer" bring nothing to the table and the seller will lose regardless of the outcome of this deal.

    Seller doesn't lose money with the Sale of the house, that is twisted nonsense. The only way they lose is of nothing happens and the home gets demolished in a few weeks. 

    The State of Florida calls people that get sucked in by these types "VICTIMS".

    I am doing business in North Carolina, but show me where that statute in FL or NC says that. Otherwise it's more self-gratifying babble.

  • Wholesaler · Huntersville, NC · Member since 2015 · 39 posts · 21 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Rich S.:

    This thread is very interesting... can we PLEASE stop painting every wholesaler with the FRAUD/SCAM brush?  Also, can we stop anointing everyone with  a license as GENUINE because neither are true. 

    John- I'm curious, as a Hard Money Lender are your transparent about what other hard money lenders offer for services, fees, how many points they charge, interest rate? I mean, I'd hate to see a HML victimize an uneducated borrower by not telling them what they could get elsewhere-- which is essentially one of the things you despise about wholesalers.

    Right on , Rich. This guy must be really laying it on thick to people with his hard money scheme. People throwing out accusations against other people they don't know usually are hiding behind their own infidelities. 

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @John Thedford

    You are the one deceiving readers on here by putting out misinformation.

    A contract assignment is a legal procedure where one person or party involved in a contract hands over their contractual obligations to a third party. ... The specifics of a contract assignment largely depends on the contract. However, no matter how a contract is assigned, the original terms and obligations still apply.

     Oren, you are correct in that contract assignments are legal and the buyer of the contract assignment is bound by the original terms of the contract. That said, when a contract assignment involves real estate, real estate laws come into play and in most, if not all states, if you negotiate the purchase price with a seller, publicly market that property for sale (without being on title) and receive a fee for brining buyer and seller together via the contract assignment, you have performed the duties of a licensee and as such, violated the law. There are several ways to wholesale legally and in the format you have laid out, it is illegal. That is a simple fact, regardless if you or others like it or not.

    I agree that some approaches in this thread may be harsh or leave little to be desired by any wholesaler and would be wholesaler, but looking at it from the other side of the fence, when people get scammed, they get hurt and other people do something about it.

    To your original post and in the attempt to educate you since you stated you are new, a $10 EMD (earnest money deposit) is a typical guru education point and is not a legitimate EMD on any property. An EMD is for the purpose to show a seller thatbof buyer is serious and $10 does. It show much seriousness, with all due respect. A standard EMD in CA is 3% of the purchase price and for purchase prices of $10k, as a seller, I would want to see at least 5%.

    A 30 day inspection contingency is almost double the standard 17 day here in CA so one should ask, why would a buyer need that long to inspect a single family residence? In a large apartment building, yes, 30 or even 60 days is common but not on a SFR.

    You stated that you disclosed to your sellers that you would be or maybe assigning to another buyer. Did you do that in writing? Can you show us the copy of that disclosure? If not, you have not properly or legally disclosed that portion. Secondly, did said disclosure spell out exactly what it means to assign to another buyer and what happens if another buyer does not come along? These are the things that most wholesalers do not disclose and if you did not, then you have not properly done your job to this point. That said, this is for you to learn, not to bash you.

    Lastly, think about this: your family member dies and leaves you a home that is this exact home. I come along and offer you $10k (or so). You have not had the opportunity to speak with a real estate agent yet so you are not aware of the exact value yet as nobody has shown you a CMA (comparative market analysis). I tell you I will assign the deal to another buyer for a fee and you agree. I then sell your property for $34k and pocket $24k for doing so. Had you spoken to a realtor, they may have informed you that on the MLS, they could attract many cash buyers looking for their next project and list it for $30k with a 6% commission fee. Let's say it only sells for $25k. Less the 6% commission, your net is $23,500 instead of $10k and it all happens inside of 30 days. Do you really believe it is fair that a wholesaler makes $25k fee and seller loses out on an additional $13,500 or more?

    Point being, a wholesale fee of almost 3 times the sale price is exorbitant and what I would call ridiculous. I see wholesale fees of $10k here in CA on $300k properties!

    To wholesale legally without violating brokering laws, you need to buy and close the deal with your cash or borrowed funds, then market and resale as you are then the owner of record on title or you need to have your buyer in hand upfront, form a new entity with you and your buyer as owners, vest the purchase contract in the name of the new entity and at closing, sell your shares to your buyer/partner for a fee or price per share. That too is legal in all 50 states.

    I hope these words help you better understand the issues at hand and how to properly and legally do a wholesale deal.

  • Wholesaler · Huntersville, NC · Member since 2015 · 39 posts · 21 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Will Barnard:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @John Thedford

    You are the one deceiving readers on here by putting out misinformation.

    A contract assignment is a legal procedure where one person or party involved in a contract hands over their contractual obligations to a third party. ... The specifics of a contract assignment largely depends on the contract. However, no matter how a contract is assigned, the original terms and obligations still apply.

     Oren, you are correct in that contract assignments are legal and the buyer of the contract assignment is bound by the original terms of the contract. That said, when a contract assignment involves real estate, real estate laws come into play and in most, if not all states, if you negotiate the purchase price with a seller, publicly market that property for sale (without being on title) and receive a fee for brining buyer and seller together via the contract assignment, you have performed the duties of a licensee and as such, violated the law. There are several ways to wholesale legally and in the format you have laid out, it is illegal. That is a simple fact, regardless if you or others like it or not.

    I agree that some approaches in this thread may be harsh or leave little to be desired by any wholesaler and would be wholesaler, but looking at it from the other side of the fence, when people get scammed, they get hurt and other people do something about it.

    To your original post and in the attempt to educate you since you stated you are new, a $10 EMD (earnest money deposit) is a typical guru education point and is not a legitimate EMD on any property. An EMD is for the purpose to show a seller thatbof buyer is serious and $10 does. It show much seriousness, with all due respect. A standard EMD in CA is 3% of the purchase price and for purchase prices of $10k, as a seller, I would want to see at least 5%.

    A 30 day inspection contingency is almost double the standard 17 day here in CA so one should ask, why would a buyer need that long to inspect a single family residence? In a large apartment building, yes, 30 or even 60 days is common but not on a SFR.

    You stated that you disclosed to your sellers that you would be or maybe assigning to another buyer. Did you do that in writing? Can you show us the copy of that disclosure? If not, you have not properly or legally disclosed that portion. Secondly, did said disclosure spell out exactly what it means to assign to another buyer and what happens if another buyer does not come along? These are the things that most wholesalers do not disclose and if you did not, then you have not properly done your job to this point. That said, this is for you to learn, not to bash you.

    Lastly, think about this: your family member dies and leaves you a home that is this exact home. I come along and offer you $10k (or so). You have not had the opportunity to speak with a real estate agent yet so you are not aware of the exact value yet as nobody has shown you a CMA (comparative market analysis). I tell you I will assign the deal to another buyer for a fee and you agree. I then sell your property for $34k and pocket $24k for doing so. Had you spoken to a realtor, they may have informed you that on the MLS, they could attract many cash buyers looking for their next project and list it for $30k with a 6% commission fee. Let's say it only sells for $25k. Less the 6% commission, your net is $23,500 instead of $10k and it all happens inside of 30 days. Do you really believe it is fair that a wholesaler makes $25k fee and seller loses out on an additional $13,500 or more?

    Point being, a wholesale fee of almost 3 times the sale price is exorbitant and what I would call ridiculous. I see wholesale fees of $10k here in CA on $300k properties!

    To wholesale legally without violating brokering laws, you need to buy and close the deal with your cash or borrowed funds, then market and resale as you are then the owner of record on title or you need to have your buyer in hand upfront, form a new entity with you and your buyer as owners, vest the purchase contract in the name of the new entity and at closing, sell your shares to your buyer/partner for a fee or price per share. That too is legal in all 50 states.

    I hope these words help you better understand the issues at hand and how to properly and legally do a wholesale deal.

     Will, 

    Thank you for your informative and non-combative response. Obviously there is a much higher quality discourse with that approach. 

    I realize that I have a lot to think about and learn at this point. 

     

    "if you negotiate the purchase price with a seller, publicly market that property for sale (without being on title) and receive a fee for brining buyer and seller together via the contract assignment, you have performed the duties of a licensee and as such, violated the law."

    What exactly constitutes marketing the property? I was under the impression that if you "market the contract" by discussing with a select group of buyers/investors, and only dealing with that particular contract, that it would not be considered marketing the property. Is sending an emai to a buyer of an assignment of contract considered marketing the property?



    "I agree that some approaches in this thread may be harsh or leave little to be desired by any wholesaler and would be wholesaler, but looking at it from the other side of the fence, when people get scammed, they get hurt and other people do something about it."

    People get scammed all the time. It does not give someone a right to go after people on a public forum who are seeking guidance. This should not be tolerated. 



    "To your original post and in the attempt to educate you since you stated you are new, a $10 EMD (earnest money deposit) is a typical guru education point and is not a legitimate EMD on any property. An EMD is for the purpose to show a seller thatbof buyer is serious and $10 does. It show much seriousness, with all due respect. A standard EMD in CA is 3% of the purchase price and for purchase prices of $10k, as a seller, I would want to see at least 5%. "

    This is a point well-taken, and I will strive to follow that model. In this deal 5% would be $575, which I can certainly afford.
     

    "A 30 day inspection contingency is almost double the standard 17 day here in CA so one should ask, why would a buyer need that long to inspect a single family residence? In a large apartment building, yes, 30 or even 60 days is common but not on a SFR."

    The property in question is a hoarder house and not a polished MLS propert, so I thought I would give myself a cushion so I can provide myself adequate time to inspect. I will definitely take into consideration using shorter inspection periods in the future. 



    "You stated that you disclosed to your sellers that you would be or maybe assigning to another buyer. Did you do that in writing? Can you show us the copy of that disclosure?"

    Contract states something to the effect: Buyer's access to the property for Due Diligence. "This contract is fully assignable by Buyer, through their sole discretion. EMD is sole remedy of Seller if terminated within applicable period." We also discussed this verbally.



    "You have not had the opportunity to speak with a real estate agent yet so you are not aware of the exact value yet as nobody has shown you a CMA (comparative market analysis)."

    I am sure the Seller realizes he had the opportunity to speak with a Real estate agent. He had been getting notices regarding the property violating code until the city stepped in and put him on notice. He either decided a he did not want to go through a real estate agent, or could not find one that would take the listing. On my contract it states, "Seller warrants that he is advised by his own, Independent Attorney, CPA and Realtor, and not on the advice of the Buyer, who may be an investor attempting to make profit.". We went over this verbally as well. 


    "Do you really believe it is fair that a wholesaler makes $25k fee and seller loses out on an additional $13,500 or more?". 

    How am I to know what the property will sell for with a real estate agent and how much they will lose out on? 

    As I states earlier, I am definitely open to lowering my assignment fee. This would just go to the rehabber though. Do you suggest I go back and offer the Seller more after the fact?

    Thanks





  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y

    @Account Closed

    ”What exactly constitutes marketing the property? I was under the impression that if you "market the contract" by discussing with a select group of buyers/investors, and only dealing with that particular contract, that it would not be considered marketing the property. Is sending an emai to a buyer of an assignment of contract considered marketing the property?”

    Keep in mind that publicly marketing the property is only one of many items you would be doing here which constitutes the requirement of licensing and yes, sending an email to your buyers list with the contract is “publicly marketing a property you do not own” and as such, brokering without a license.

    As to your inspection contingency, a hoarder house does not constitute the need or requirement for a 30 day inspection, it is merely a mess with personal affects that need to be removed by seller prior to close of escrow or you agree to trash out at your expense (whichever you’re contract states). 

    As to knowledge of what an agent could sell it for, a wholesaler should have the access and ability to run comps to see what fair market value is. Secondly, lowering your fee to leave more room for the rehabber is prudent but the fact that the original contract amount is so low compared to what it likely could sell for on the MLS, I would say yes, the seller should be entitled to more money (I.e. higher purchase price). That said, I don't know the area or this particular property so I am only going off of what info you have provided thus far.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Assignments are legal...

    How some wholesalers goes about it is what makes it questionably illegal.

    Signing the contract with the purpose of buying and then assigning it later for one reason or another is one thing. Signing the contract with the 100% sole intention of assigning and no ability to close is another (what most wholesalers do). These aren’t situations where you wanted to buy this house, however something in your life changed and you now can’t, but know of someone who would take over your position in the contract. There is a reason some markets are directly cracking down on how some wholesalers operate.

  • Realtor · Southeast Michigan · Member since 2017 · 232 posts · 180 votes
    6y

    Im absolutely blown away that year after year, thread after thread, we have the same discussions and arguments in every wholesaling thread.

    State laws are pretty clear on this regarding it being unlicensed brokering, and anyone trying to tell you differently is either trying to sell a course, or is brand new and completely ignorant on the topic, or worse yet just took one of those so called "courses"

    When will it end?

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