First time investor needing some confidence!

First time investor needing some confidence!

Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes

Hey all! First time poster here so let me try and lay down the situation.


My wife and I are just beginning our real estate investing journey. We live in California so I think the opportunities are better when it's OOS. Some areas I've been looking at are Provo/Vineyard, Colorado Springs, Indianapolis and Raleigh/Durham. Current timeline to purchase is probably 6-12 months as I start narrowing down and visiting some of the places to get a better idea over the next few months. Our downpayment budget is probably $60-$100k.

Questions:

1. Does focusing on macro trends (Population growth, rental and appreciation growth, good jobs) offset the 1% rule?

2. My friend is a big investor in Provo and has connections there. Would it make sense to reduce risk and use his connections first and invest it that area? Curious what experience others have had done.

3. Should I expand my target metros? These areas are relatively easy as a direct flight from SFO and one of the BP videos mentioned how it's a good idea to be able to fly direct if you have a OOS investment. For example, Columbus or Huntsville, AL has come up a bunch of times but I’d have to transfer.

4. Do you definitely need a property manager for OOS investing, especially as a first time investor? It seems like that would eat into the returns and you can't get positive cash flow for a while

5. Is it just a bad rule of thumb for an investment if you can't get positive cash flow for the first year or two? Or is this normal?

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Don KonipolBusiness Member
Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
1y
Quote from @Travis Timmons:

@Nicholas L. You already know the answer to that. Bunch of realtors come on a spout off that their clients cash flow from day 1 all the time. It's always crickets when you ask for an example. And a pro forma vs. end of year actuals are very, very different.

@Benjamin Ying The only way to cash flow in the current market is to employ a higher effort strategy like STR, MTR, rent by the room, etc.

The "cash flow on paper" properties in stagnant markets or C-D class neighborhoods are probably not the type of places that you want to own long term. My advice would be to find a great asset and match that with a strategy that is a bit more work to break even or eek out a little cash flow. Leverage + appreciation is what makes real estate outperform other asset classes. If you don't see real appreciation upside (both price and rent), it's just not worth the hassle. We overthink real estate...Just find a place that people with options want to live. 


“And a pro forma vs. end of year actuals are very, very different.”


45 years investing in real estate.  I have NEVER seen a pro forma statement put together by a seller or broker that 

1. Had any basis in reality

2. Was in any way reflective of past experience

3. That had even a passing resemblance to tax returns or financial statements

4. That could be achieved without spending an inordinate additional amount in cap ex; 

In fact all I have seen had these items in common

1. Were based on dubious and unproven speculation, assumptions and best case scenarios

2. Were obviously “reverse engineered” to find a way to “back into” an attractive or at least acceptable cap rate

3. Often contained mathematical mistakes

4. Tended to leave off some categories of expenses completely

5. Assumed nothing could possibly go wrong in the next 5 years 


what you want when you look at an investment property is to know the current rental amounts, specific expense items, and conditions of the building, grounds, and mechanical systems.  The rest of the numbers the investor needs to “fill in” themselves based on a thorough due diligence.  If you’re not willing to do this, then you may be best off investing in some kind of real estate fund concept.  Prices in relation to rent are too high to have the cushion that was available before. 

Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
See this reply in the discussion

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  • Tim DelaneyPro Member
    Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 790 posts · 530 votes
    1y

    Congrats on getting started! I'll share my thoughts on a few of your points:

    1. The 1% "rule" is not a rule, it was a simple guideline that was supposed to help do a quick initial vetting of a deal. Before the 1% "rule" there was the 2% "rule" that then got reduced as the market changed. Focus on a market you like for those macro reasons then focus on finding a deal that works for you.

    2. Boots on the ground is very valuable. I can't comment on either of those markets other than saying that.

    3. I don't invest OOS, but if I did then convenience of getting there would be top on my list. Even comparing Provo to NC in terms of flight duration and cost even though both have direct flights would be a huge factor for me. I'd probably also look at markets that had multiple direct flights form SFO everyday for even more convenience. That shouldn't be your number one criteria though.

    4. I think it depends on whether you have someone that you can trust in that market. PMs cost a lot so if you can find a way to do it without them then great. But there is some risk if you are not around. Also, keep in mind that some markets have a requirement that landlords have a locally registered agent (manager).

    5. This is dependent on your personal situation and strategy. Personally I would not take a negative cash flow deal. I don't like to gamble on rent appreciation. Expenses are going up just as fast as rent anyway. And interest rates probably aren't coming back down anytime soon. I have done some deals that barely have a little positive cash flow in neighborhoods that I know very well and know that the house should appreciate well and that I will have no problem always finding great tenants.

    Hope all this helps.

  • Patrick DruryBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH & Cleveland OH · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    @Benjamin Ying

    1. I would start by looking at the macro trends you mentioned then look at the markets that pop out and compare them side by side and see which best aligns with what your looking for 

    2. If that market fits what you are looking for and it's closer then I would invest there, but if it doesn't fit what your looking for from a metric standpoint I wouldn't just invest there because a buddy does. 

    3.Being able to get a direct flight helps, but I wouldn't make a decision on a market based on that

    4. Yes. Having a PM out of state is important 

    5. It depends on the area. If you are investing in an A location in Columbus for example it's not going to cashflow. It's a lot of owner-occupants and those areas usually have investors investing in them because they are stable with access to the best tenants. Those areas will eventually cashflow as you pay down debt but definitely not in year 1

  • Memphis, TN · Member since 2023 · 100 posts · 24 votes
    1y

    Hi Benjamin, 

    The answers to your questions ultimately depend on your risk tolerance and investing goals. Purchasing a property that doesn’t meet the 1% rule can absolutely be justified if you’re focused on long-term appreciation, especially in strong growth markets like the ones you mentioned. Over time, rents and property values tend to increase, improving overall returns. Regardless of the market, choosing a reliable property management company is crucial, as their performance can significantly impact your investment’s success.

    Good luck!

  • Bonnie LouisBusiness Member
    Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2014 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    1y

    Benjamin-I think you're missing out if you don't look in Cincinnati-one of the strongest rental markets in the country.  I have been a real estate asset manager for 19 years and can attest that we are in full swing.  If you need assistance with such an acquisition please reach out to me.  

    Real Property Management Midwest4.6141 Reviews
  • Clare PitcherBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2024 · 162 posts · 97 votes
    1y

    I would suggest taking a looking at Milwaukee/ Wisconsin as well!

    Welcome Home Milwaukee4.4453 Reviews
  • Jeremy MelloulPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2022 · 83 posts · 83 votes
    1y

    Welcome! Exciting times ahead in your real estate journey. Here’s a quick take:

    1. Macro Trends vs. 1% Rule
    The 1% rule is handy but not a dealbreaker if macro trends like population and job growth are strong. Focus on overall returns.

    2. Provo Connections
    Using your friend’s connections in Provo is smart—it lowers risk. Just make sure the numbers still work for your goals.

    3. Expanding Metros
    Direct flights help, but don’t skip great markets like Columbus or Huntsville if they offer better returns. Strong local teams can bridge the gap.

    4. Property Management
    For OOS, a property manager is a good idea, especially at first. It’s a cost, but it saves time and headaches.

    5. Positive Cash Flow
    Immediate cash flow isn’t always possible in growth markets. Just plan for reserves if it takes a year or two to break even.

    Take your time, do the research, and trust the process. Good luck—keep us posted!

  • Todd AndersonPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Cape Coral, FL · Member since 2023 · 392 posts · 175 votes
    1y

    @Benjamin Ying,

    First off Congrats at making the decision to get started into REI and getting involved with BP. this is a great way to start.

    As for your questions.  For OOS investing, one of the most important things to worry about is market.  With the investors I work with, finding a good growth markets in a state that is landlord friendly is the first step.  It is very important to find a market that has good population and job growth.  This will allow you to get in the way of obvious appreciation.  

    The next most important thing to find is a good team.  You can do this by finding your own people to fill the positions or use a turnkey option.  I would say that it is very important to have a Property Manager for an OOS investment.  They are the ones protection your investment.  The other important thing that the investors I work with find is that having Boots On The Ground is very important.  This can help with pictures, video, or visits to the property. It will also insure that you are able to find the right submarkets in thew area that you are looking.  Being on the right street is important.   

    Lastly, I would never recommend getting into an investment that does not cashflow.  This is the reason for the investment.  Appreciation is a good bonus for long term but the deal is not a good deal if the Cash on Cash return is not there. You will burn yourself out feeding the beast each month.  

    I have found in the world that we live in today many of the problems of OOS investing are lessening.  Our world is getting smaller. 

    Best of luck, and feel free to connect if you have more questions.

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1y

    @Benjamin Ying

    1) Waste of time unless you are buying hundreds of units.

    2) Any option to minimize risk is usually a good idea.

    3) Always better to visit an area before investing. You may not need to visit each property you buy in that area though.

    4) Unless you are buying Class A turnkey, you should have a PMC.

    5) See below copy & paste info:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Recommend you first figure out the property Class you want to invest in, THEN figure out the corresponding location to invest in.

    Property Class will typically dictate the Class of tenant you get, which greatly IMPACTS rental income stability and property maintenance/damage by tenants.

    If you apply Class A assumptions to a Class B or C purchase, your expectations won’t be met and it may be a financial disaster.

    If you buy/renovate a property in Class D area to Class A standards, what quality of tenant will you get?

    Similarly, if you put several Class D tenants in a Class A 4-plex, what do you think will happen to the property?

    So, when investing in areas they don’t really know, investors should research the different property Class submarkets.

    Here’s our OPINION for the Metro Detroit market (use as a template for your target area!) that we’ve learned in our 24 years, managing almost 700 doors across the Metro Detroit area, including almost 100 S8 leases:

    Class A Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 3-5 years for positive cashflow, but you get highest relative rent & value appreciation.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% the more recent norm.
    Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 680+ (roughly 5% probability of default), zero evictions in last 7 years.

    Class B Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, decent amount of relative rent & value appreciation.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% should be applied only if proper research done to support.
    Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 620-680 (around 10% probability of default), some blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 5 years

    Class C Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, high cashflow and at the lower end of relative rent & value appreciation. Can try to reposition to Class B, but neighborhood may impede these efforts.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, but 15-20% should be used to also cover tenant nonpayment, eviction costs & damages.
    Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores of 560-620 (approaching 22% probability of default), many blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 2 years. Verifying last 2 years of rental history very important! Also, focus on 2 years of job/income stability.

    Class D Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, all cashflow with little, maybe even negative, relative rent & value appreciation
    Vacancy Est: 20%+ should be used to cover nonpayment, evictions & damages.
    Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores under 560 (almost 30% probability of default), little to no good tradelines, lots of collections & chargeoffs, recent evictions. Verifying last 2 years of rental history and income extremely important to find the “best of the worst”.

    Make sure you understand the Class of properties you are looking at and the corresponding results to expect.

    The City of Detroit has 183 Neighborhoods we’ve analyzed.

    DM us if you’d like to discuss this logical approach in greater detail!

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Tim Delaney:

    Congrats on getting started! I'll share my thoughts on a few of your points:

    1. The 1% "rule" is not a rule, it was a simple guideline that was supposed to help do a quick initial vetting of a deal. Before the 1% "rule" there was the 2% "rule" that then got reduced as the market changed. Focus on a market you like for those macro reasons then focus on finding a deal that works for you.

    2. Boots on the ground is very valuable. I can't comment on either of those markets other than saying that.

    3. I don't invest OOS, but if I did then convenience of getting there would be top on my list. Even comparing Provo to NC in terms of flight duration and cost even though both have direct flights would be a huge factor for me. I'd probably also look at markets that had multiple direct flights form SFO everyday for even more convenience. That shouldn't be your number one criteria though.

    4. I think it depends on whether you have someone that you can trust in that market. PMs cost a lot so if you can find a way to do it without them then great. But there is some risk if you are not around. Also, keep in mind that some markets have a requirement that landlords have a locally registered agent (manager).

    5. This is dependent on your personal situation and strategy. Personally I would not take a negative cash flow deal. I don't like to gamble on rent appreciation. Expenses are going up just as fast as rent anyway. And interest rates probably aren't coming back down anytime soon. I have done some deals that barely have a little positive cash flow in neighborhoods that I know very well and know that the house should appreciate well and that I will have no problem always finding great tenants.

    Hope all this helps.


     Thank you for this feedback! Very insightful and gives me confidence I'm pointed in the right direction!

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Patrick Drury:

    @Benjamin Ying

    1. I would start by looking at the macro trends you mentioned then look at the markets that pop out and compare them side by side and see which best aligns with what your looking for 

    2. If that market fits what you are looking for and it's closer then I would invest there, but if it doesn't fit what your looking for from a metric standpoint I wouldn't just invest there because a buddy does. 

    3.Being able to get a direct flight helps, but I wouldn't make a decision on a market based on that

    4. Yes. Having a PM out of state is important 

    5. It depends on the area. If you are investing in an A location in Columbus for example it's not going to cashflow. It's a lot of owner-occupants and those areas usually have investors investing in them because they are stable with access to the best tenants. Those areas will eventually cashflow as you pay down debt but definitely not in year 1


     Thanks for the response! What determines if it's a Class A  (b, c, etc.)? It seems like it's more of a "feel" now as I'm doing my macro research on the metro areas. As I dig in a specific metro, I'll get a better idea of the different neighborhoods and the different classes. Is that the right way of thinking about it?

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Ryan Harrell:

    Hi Benjamin, 

    The answers to your questions ultimately depend on your risk tolerance and investing goals. Purchasing a property that doesn’t meet the 1% rule can absolutely be justified if you’re focused on long-term appreciation, especially in strong growth markets like the ones you mentioned. Over time, rents and property values tend to increase, improving overall returns. Regardless of the market, choosing a reliable property management company is crucial, as their performance can significantly impact your investment’s success.

    Good luck!


     Awesome thank you! 

  • Jimmy LieuBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2019 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Benjamin Ying:

    Hey all! First time poster here so let me try and lay down the situation.


    My wife and I are just beginning our real estate investing journey. We live in California so I think the opportunities are better when it's OOS. Some areas I've been looking at are Provo/Vineyard, Colorado Springs, Indianapolis and Raleigh/Durham. Current timeline to purchase is probably 6-12 months as I start narrowing down and visiting some of the places to get a better idea over the next few months. Our downpayment budget is probably $60-$100k.

    Questions:

    1. Does focusing on macro trends (Population growth, rental and appreciation growth, good jobs) offset the 1% rule?

    2. My friend is a big investor in Provo and has connections there. Would it make sense to reduce risk and use his connections first and invest it that area? Curious what experience others have had done.

    3. Should I expand my target metros? These areas are relatively easy as a direct flight from SFO and one of the BP videos mentioned how it's a good idea to be able to fly direct if you have a OOS investment. For example, Columbus or Huntsville, AL has come up a bunch of times but I’d have to transfer.

    4. Do you definitely need a property manager for OOS investing, especially as a first time investor? It seems like that would eat into the returns and you can't get positive cash flow for a while

    5. Is it just a bad rule of thumb for an investment if you can't get positive cash flow for the first year or two? Or is this normal?

    Hi Benjamin! Welcome to BP and I'd love to help answer some of your questions.

    1. No, you do not need to sacrifice cash flow for good macros. You can get both in a real estate market. For example, here in Columbus Ohio, you have amazing macros (population growth, job growth, and companies moving and developing here like Intel headquarters, Amazon, FB, Google, Nationwide, and recently Anduril AND you can still find positive cash flow and the 1% rule here PLUS there's AMAZING appreciation potential.

    2. You would definitely have an advantage investing in a market if you already know people there but there's tons of investors who invest in markets they have never visited or seen before. So don't be confined to just areas/markets that you know people in! If you have a great investor agent, he'll be able to help with finding you personalized deals, helping you learn good/bad neighborhoods, estimating renovations/scope of work, setting you up with his team, etc.

    3. Definitely go with a PM as an OOS investor. You do not want to be taking 2AM calls at night about a clogged toilet from across the US. You can still get positive cash flow even accounting for a PM - tons of my clients do as well!

    4. No, it's not. If it's a deal that is in a very very desirable location and has tons of built in equity and appreciation, I would be totally good with negative cash flow for Y1 and Y2. It is really situational and depends on your resources.

    Happy to connect and answer any questions you have! :)

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Bonnie Louis:

    Benjamin-I think you're missing out if you don't look in Cincinnati-one of the strongest rental markets in the country.  I have been a real estate asset manager for 19 years and can attest that we are in full swing.  If you need assistance with such an acquisition please reach out to me.  


     Hello Bonnie! Thanks for the response. Cincinnati didn't come up in my research but would love to learn more. The metrics I'm primarily focused on are: rent appreciation rate, property appreciation rate, economic growth rate, unemployment rate on the macro level. Any more details on the market would be great for me to understand!

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Clare Pitcher:

    I would suggest taking a looking at Milwaukee/ Wisconsin as well!


    Thank you for the response Clare! I'd love to learn more about the market - do you have any reports to share with me about it? The metrics I'm primarily focused on are: rent appreciation rate, property appreciation rate, economic growth rate, unemployment rate on the macro level.

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jeremy Melloul:

    Welcome! Exciting times ahead in your real estate journey. Here’s a quick take:

    1. Macro Trends vs. 1% Rule
    The 1% rule is handy but not a dealbreaker if macro trends like population and job growth are strong. Focus on overall returns.

    2. Provo Connections
    Using your friend’s connections in Provo is smart—it lowers risk. Just make sure the numbers still work for your goals.

    3. Expanding Metros
    Direct flights help, but don’t skip great markets like Columbus or Huntsville if they offer better returns. Strong local teams can bridge the gap.

    4. Property Management
    For OOS, a property manager is a good idea, especially at first. It’s a cost, but it saves time and headaches.

    5. Positive Cash Flow
    Immediate cash flow isn’t always possible in growth markets. Just plan for reserves if it takes a year or two to break even.

    Take your time, do the research, and trust the process. Good luck—keep us posted!


     Thank you for the super clear and concise answer. Would love to provide an update in a few months!

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Drew Sygit:

    @Benjamin Ying

    1) Waste of time unless you are buying hundreds of units.

    2) Any option to minimize risk is usually a good idea.

    3) Always better to visit an area before investing. You may not need to visit each property you buy in that area though.

    4) Unless you are buying Class A turnkey, you should have a PMC.

    5) See below copy & paste info:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Recommend you first figure out the property Class you want to invest in, THEN figure out the corresponding location to invest in.

    Property Class will typically dictate the Class of tenant you get, which greatly IMPACTS rental income stability and property maintenance/damage by tenants.

    If you apply Class A assumptions to a Class B or C purchase, your expectations won’t be met and it may be a financial disaster.

    If you buy/renovate a property in Class D area to Class A standards, what quality of tenant will you get?

    Similarly, if you put several Class D tenants in a Class A 4-plex, what do you think will happen to the property?

    So, when investing in areas they don’t really know, investors should research the different property Class submarkets.

    Here’s our OPINION for the Metro Detroit market (use as a template for your target area!) that we’ve learned in our 24 years, managing almost 700 doors across the Metro Detroit area, including almost 100 S8 leases:

    Class A Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 3-5 years for positive cashflow, but you get highest relative rent & value appreciation.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% the more recent norm.
    Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 680+ (roughly 5% probability of default), zero evictions in last 7 years.

    Class B Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, decent amount of relative rent & value appreciation.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% should be applied only if proper research done to support.
    Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 620-680 (around 10% probability of default), some blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 5 years

    Class C Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, high cashflow and at the lower end of relative rent & value appreciation. Can try to reposition to Class B, but neighborhood may impede these efforts.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, but 15-20% should be used to also cover tenant nonpayment, eviction costs & damages.
    Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores of 560-620 (approaching 22% probability of default), many blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 2 years. Verifying last 2 years of rental history very important! Also, focus on 2 years of job/income stability.

    Class D Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, all cashflow with little, maybe even negative, relative rent & value appreciation
    Vacancy Est: 20%+ should be used to cover nonpayment, evictions & damages.
    Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores under 560 (almost 30% probability of default), little to no good tradelines, lots of collections & chargeoffs, recent evictions. Verifying last 2 years of rental history and income extremely important to find the “best of the worst”.

    Make sure you understand the Class of properties you are looking at and the corresponding results to expect.

    The City of Detroit has 183 Neighborhoods we’ve analyzed.

    DM us if you’d like to discuss this logical approach in greater detail!


     Thank you so much for the response! Detroit didn't come up in my research. Do you have more resources to share? The metrics I'm primarily focused on are: rent appreciation rate, property appreciation rate, economic growth rate, unemployment rate on the macro level.

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jimmy Lieu:
    Quote from @Benjamin Ying:

    Hey all! First time poster here so let me try and lay down the situation.


    My wife and I are just beginning our real estate investing journey. We live in California so I think the opportunities are better when it's OOS. Some areas I've been looking at are Provo/Vineyard, Colorado Springs, Indianapolis and Raleigh/Durham. Current timeline to purchase is probably 6-12 months as I start narrowing down and visiting some of the places to get a better idea over the next few months. Our downpayment budget is probably $60-$100k.

    Questions:

    1. Does focusing on macro trends (Population growth, rental and appreciation growth, good jobs) offset the 1% rule?

    2. My friend is a big investor in Provo and has connections there. Would it make sense to reduce risk and use his connections first and invest it that area? Curious what experience others have had done.

    3. Should I expand my target metros? These areas are relatively easy as a direct flight from SFO and one of the BP videos mentioned how it's a good idea to be able to fly direct if you have a OOS investment. For example, Columbus or Huntsville, AL has come up a bunch of times but I’d have to transfer.

    4. Do you definitely need a property manager for OOS investing, especially as a first time investor? It seems like that would eat into the returns and you can't get positive cash flow for a while

    5. Is it just a bad rule of thumb for an investment if you can't get positive cash flow for the first year or two? Or is this normal?

    Hi Benjamin! Welcome to BP and I'd love to help answer some of your questions.

    1. No, you do not need to sacrifice cash flow for good macros. You can get both in a real estate market. For example, here in Columbus Ohio, you have amazing macros (population growth, job growth, and companies moving and developing here like Intel headquarters, Amazon, FB, Google, Nationwide, and recently Anduril AND you can still find positive cash flow and the 1% rule here PLUS there's AMAZING appreciation potential.

    2. You would definitely have an advantage investing in a market if you already know people there but there's tons of investors who invest in markets they have never visited or seen before. So don't be confined to just areas/markets that you know people in! If you have a great investor agent, he'll be able to help with finding you personalized deals, helping you learn good/bad neighborhoods, estimating renovations/scope of work, setting you up with his team, etc.

    3. Definitely go with a PM as an OOS investor. You do not want to be taking 2AM calls at night about a clogged toilet from across the US. You can still get positive cash flow even accounting for a PM - tons of my clients do as well!

    4. No, it's not. If it's a deal that is in a very very desirable location and has tons of built in equity and appreciation, I would be totally good with negative cash flow for Y1 and Y2. It is really situational and depends on your resources.

    Happy to connect and answer any questions you have! :)


     Thank you for the clear and concise answers Jimmy! Columbus has been coming up a lot and would love to learn more. Do you have any more materials to share with me about the market? The metrics I'm primarily focused on are: rent appreciation rate, property appreciation rate, economic growth rate, unemployment rate on the macro level.

  • Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 15 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Todd Anderson:

    @Benjamin Ying,

    First off Congrats at making the decision to get started into REI and getting involved with BP. this is a great way to start.

    As for your questions.  For OOS investing, one of the most important things to worry about is market.  With the investors I work with, finding a good growth markets in a state that is landlord friendly is the first step.  It is very important to find a market that has good population and job growth.  This will allow you to get in the way of obvious appreciation.  

    The next most important thing to find is a good team.  You can do this by finding your own people to fill the positions or use a turnkey option.  I would say that it is very important to have a Property Manager for an OOS investment.  They are the ones protection your investment.  The other important thing that the investors I work with find is that having Boots On The Ground is very important.  This can help with pictures, video, or visits to the property. It will also insure that you are able to find the right submarkets in thew area that you are looking.  Being on the right street is important.   

    Lastly, I would never recommend getting into an investment that does not cashflow.  This is the reason for the investment.  Appreciation is a good bonus for long term but the deal is not a good deal if the Cash on Cash return is not there. You will burn yourself out feeding the beast each month.  

    I have found in the world that we live in today many of the problems of OOS investing are lessening.  Our world is getting smaller. 

    Best of luck, and feel free to connect if you have more questions.


     Thanks for the thoughtful response Todd! Gives me confidence that I'm pointed in the right direction. 

  • Rental Property Investor · CO · Member since 2024 · 19 posts · 6 votes
    1y

    Happy to discuss one on one.  We go coast to coast with the properties we manage.

  • Bradley BuxtonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · NV · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 713 votes
    1y

    @Benjamin Ying

    No one thing or person can give you confidence to overcome the fears of buying an investment. You should have a healthy amount of fear that will keep you vigilant but not enough to keep you on the sidelines. You can give yourself confidence by running numbers and giving a confidence range to the assumptions. Gurus will tell you they 1% rule is the standard, we are in a different investment environment. Finding a property that gets you closer to your goal of why you're investing, works for your financial situation, lifestyle, and risk tolerance will give you confidence you're on the path to where you want to be. 

  • Kerry Noble JrPro Member
    Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Benjamin Ying:

    Hey all! First time poster here so let me try and lay down the situation.


    My wife and I are just beginning our real estate investing journey. We live in California so I think the opportunities are better when it's OOS. Some areas I've been looking at are Provo/Vineyard, Colorado Springs, Indianapolis and Raleigh/Durham. Current timeline to purchase is probably 6-12 months as I start narrowing down and visiting some of the places to get a better idea over the next few months. Our downpayment budget is probably $60-$100k.

    Questions:

    1. Does focusing on macro trends (Population growth, rental and appreciation growth, good jobs) offset the 1% rule?

    2. My friend is a big investor in Provo and has connections there. Would it make sense to reduce risk and use his connections first and invest it that area? Curious what experience others have had done.

    3. Should I expand my target metros? These areas are relatively easy as a direct flight from SFO and one of the BP videos mentioned how it's a good idea to be able to fly direct if you have a OOS investment. For example, Columbus or Huntsville, AL has come up a bunch of times but I’d have to transfer.

    4. Do you definitely need a property manager for OOS investing, especially as a first time investor? It seems like that would eat into the returns and you can't get positive cash flow for a while

    5. Is it just a bad rule of thumb for an investment if you can't get positive cash flow for the first year or two? Or is this normal?


     Im in Indy and open to connecting

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    @Benjamin Ying

    I think you're right to be cautious.  That's a tremendous amount of your hard earned cash to spend, and the market is tough right now.  Inventory is scarce, rights are high.

    You should definitely pick a market you know and can go to.  It is critical to build a network, and not to just buy a property off Zillow and turn it over to people you've never met.

    Also, there are a lot of mentions of 'cash flow' in this thread.  Here's the bottom line - you won't cash flow, period, for YEARS.  It takes that long to pay off your closing costs, rent-ready costs, early turnovers, etc.  Do honest math on a purchase and you'll see.

    The benefits of real estate are... all of them together.  Over the long term.  Rent just covers the costs.

  • Property Manager · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2017 · 302 posts · 246 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jeremy Melloul:

    Welcome! Exciting times ahead in your real estate journey. Here’s a quick take:

    1. Macro Trends vs. 1% Rule
    The 1% rule is handy but not a dealbreaker if macro trends like population and job growth are strong. Focus on overall returns.

    2. Provo Connections
    Using your friend’s connections in Provo is smart—it lowers risk. Just make sure the numbers still work for your goals.

    3. Expanding Metros
    Direct flights help, but don’t skip great markets like Columbus or Huntsville if they offer better returns. Strong local teams can bridge the gap.

    4. Property Management
    For OOS, a property manager is a good idea, especially at first. It’s a cost, but it saves time and headaches.

    5. Positive Cash Flow
    Immediate cash flow isn’t always possible in growth markets. Just plan for reserves if it takes a year or two to break even.

    Take your time, do the research, and trust the process. Good luck—keep us posted!

    I've heard great things about the Columbus market. I work with investors in Huntsville, and there are big things heating up here, as well. Best of luck @Benjamin Ying 

  • Member since 2018 · 113 posts · 135 votes
    1y

    @Benjamin Ying I recommend you take time to read through some of the horror stories that have happened to some who’ve tried OOS long distance investing that are in these forums. Don’t get me wrong, some people have been very successful with OOS the last 10 years, but today is a very different market from 2012-2020, and I think you owe it to yourself to understand what can go wrong.

    People who are successful versus failed with OOS tend to follow certain patterns. Successful people buy quality property in good locations, have a long-term perspective, adequate reserves, realistic expectations, and a great team to manage the property. Many who fail fall short in these categories. At least those are my observations.

    If you’re comfortable knowing the OOS risks, and still want to move forward, then great job, now you know what you’re getting into, which is part of due diligence. I personally would never ever invest in another market that I can’t drive to within 1/2 a day on my first investment. As they say, you don’t know what you don’t know. 

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Benjamin Ying:

    Hey all! First time poster here so let me try and lay down the situation.


    My wife and I are just beginning our real estate investing journey. We live in California so I think the opportunities are better when it's OOS. Some areas I've been looking at are Provo/Vineyard, Colorado Springs, Indianapolis and Raleigh/Durham. Current timeline to purchase is probably 6-12 months as I start narrowing down and visiting some of the places to get a better idea over the next few months. Our downpayment budget is probably $60-$100k.

    Questions:

    1. Does focusing on macro trends (Population growth, rental and appreciation growth, good jobs) offset the 1% rule?

    2. My friend is a big investor in Provo and has connections there. Would it make sense to reduce risk and use his connections first and invest it that area? Curious what experience others have had done.

    3. Should I expand my target metros? These areas are relatively easy as a direct flight from SFO and one of the BP videos mentioned how it's a good idea to be able to fly direct if you have a OOS investment. For example, Columbus or Huntsville, AL has come up a bunch of times but I’d have to transfer.

    4. Do you definitely need a property manager for OOS investing, especially as a first time investor? It seems like that would eat into the returns and you can't get positive cash flow for a while

    5. Is it just a bad rule of thumb for an investment if you can't get positive cash flow for the first year or two? Or is this normal?

    Beware of people with “something to sell” stating how great their product is. That’s the most BIASED “opinion” you can ever receive. 
    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
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