Did Brandon Turner really lose $14M of investor money while pocketing $4.4M???

Did Brandon Turner really lose $14M of investor money while pocketing $4.4M???

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes

I've been starting to hear rumors that Brandon Turner's company Open Door Capital has been losing a lot of investor money. I haven't really followed what he's been up to since he left BiggerPockets, but since I started hearing all of these rumors about mismanaged money and poorly performing investments, I started to look a bit into it. 

Below is what Google/AI had to say about the "Heights on Katy" deal in Houston, Texas. Apparently the GP's pocketed $4.4 million while losing $14 million investor dollars on the deal.

Anyone have any more insight into this deal / or others Brandon Turner's got going on? I don't know how reliable what Google/AI says below is, so I'd like to hear from folks that have more 1st hand info.

Is there fire behind all of this smoke?

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
1y
Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Don Konipol:

Like almost all social media innovations, BP was (is) heavy on tech - but the real estate personnel are mostly “lightweights”. 

This was obvious 15 years ago, but BP was still made into a valuable resource. Especially for the newer investor hoping to learn the basics of investing in SFR.
The fact that some people had a personal side agenda shouldn’t be surprising.  Contrary to Barry Minkow ( whom I believe is a career criminal) most deals gone bad are not fraud; they’re usually the result of a “surprise” in the market/economy, undercapitalization / over leverage, or less than competent management/organizers.  The ones that are fraud from the beginning, like Minkow’s ZZZZ Best, are a rarer occurrence. 

Here’s what I want to know when investing as a passive investor - is the head person a techie, a “salesperson” or a specialist in the particular type of investment being offered.  If the first or second, I’m out no matter how good the numbers look.  

This is of course no guarantee of successful investment.  But I want to eliminate the obvious highest risks. 


I follow that same principal, if the top dog is not in real estate with 10+ years I am out. When I researched appleway which made a lot of news in texas for going under, a simple search on the website saw both partners had very little real estate experience and their "project managers" were overseas VA's.... Red flags galore.


Regarding the other post on companies doing due diligence, they exist, Mick Law, Factright and others provide sponsor due diligence reports (They are not cheap), but they are very very detailed (we had a factright report done), and most sponsors would not pass the sniff test, which is why they do not get them.


 One of the big red flags I looked for over the last half decade was any offering that wasnt pricing in substantial interest rate hikes.  All of the ones I looked at did not have this, thus why I did not invest in any syndications over the last half decade.  Some of the ones I looked at turned out fine....usually because they sold the asset earlier than the anticipated hold period.  But many of the ones I looked at are in dire financial straights right now.

Additionally one of the things you mentioned in that they be in real estate for 10+ years. I didnt look at that metric per se, but what I saw over the last half decade was a number of flippers, small residential landlords, brrrr people who were getting into the syndication space.  Now as someone who sells both residential and commercial real estate, I understand the fundamental differences.  We sold numerous commercial properties to people who just didnt understand the risk of what they were buying. My sellers who sold at 2020-2022 knew they were selling at the top of the cycle. The buyers, didnt really have an idea that that was the case.

The inexperience of those doing these deals, and coming from more of a residential real estate background didnt understand the impact of interest rates.  While rising interest rates do not largely affect residential real estate, they do in fact affect commercial real estate.  The lack of understanding of interest rate risk, I believe is one of the fundamental causes of the current crisis. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Dev HornPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Arlington, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11mo

    I haven't been in BP for a long time and I decided to check it out, see what is going on, and I fell into this thread. Holy cr@p!  It's a lot spicier in here than back in the day.

    • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      11mo
      Quote from @Dev Horn:

      I haven't been in BP for a long time and I decided to check it out, see what is going on, and I fell into this thread. Holy cr@p!  It's a lot spicier in here than back in the day.


       Alright Alright Alright

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    9mo

    I don't even think about markets it's the DEBT the syndicators use. If someone is buying a 50 million value add multifamily and porking debt to 75 or 80% LTV you are asking for failure unless you bought at the very bottom of the cycle recovery process for that asset class.

    They massage debt with interest only, floating rates, short term fixed loans, rate buydowns, etc.

    What that is code for is the deal is so marginal that they have to think of other ways to make it work to entice investment. LP's should run from those types of deals. Exiting multifamily is heavily cycle and debt dependent. If you buy it for 50 million and put in 10 million and exit cap has it at 80 million then what happens when interest rates rise a bunch? Your exit buyer buys on debt so now projected sale cap rate has to be 200 or more basis points higher to move the property. Now most of your upside equity is wiped out and if short term loan coming due or interest only changes to principal payments you and the LP's are screwed.

    Now there are absolutely MF deals that did great equity upside multiples for a short period of cycle time like 2 to 3 year window when debt was crazy low. The exit buyer was buying on spread so the numbers worked for them going in.

    Why I love NNN for an asset class is there is always a cash buyer regardless of interest rates in the market. Cap rate moves some but not that much because under 5 million a bunch are cash buyers and for the great location and tenant still pay 5 caps.

    The NNN exit buyer is different than the multifamily exit buyer as they have already made their money in life and want passive returns without volatility.

    The problem with LP's is they often do not have the experience to know what is real and what is not for being projected. They just go by who delivers the best mind screwing pitch to make them think this is the investment of a lifetime.

    Personally I do not care much for using debt. I like ultimate flexibility with an asset. I have seen multifamily people before trying to get into NNN with 1031 proceeds. A problem sometimes is they used 80% ltv buying multifamily and now want high leverage in NNN and typically highest LTV will be 65%. So that can create some tax residual issues etc.

    There are cases where debt make sense. Say someone has 1 million to invest. The 1 million for cash might get them in a rural area with a very bad asset that has little to no chance of long term success. Instead of they bought own direct like a NNN passive property for 3 million and put 1 million down then the asset could be on a hard corner in a strong suburban area with high traffic counts.

    The property needs to be stress tested with the debt modeled out compared to the income of the buyer/investor.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    4mo

    Folks, I officially stand corrected. Per Brandon Turner's recent IG post, he did NOT lose $14 Million dollars of investor's money. He actually lost $15 Million dollars of investor's money.

    But hey, it's all good, cuz he "Loves ya all"

    ___

    • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      4mo

      Reading the comments on Brandon's IG Post, it's crazy how people are being so mean to him. 

      Did you all miss what he's willing to do for you? If you lost all of your money investing with him, he is now willing to allow you to give him MORE of your money to make things right.

      What a class act. A true man of the people. How do I become a member of his tribe?

    • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @James Wise:

      Reading the comments on Brandon's IG Post, it's crazy how people are being so mean to him. 

      Did you all miss what he's willing to do for you? If you lost all of your money investing with him, he is now willing to allow you to give him MORE of your money to make things right.

      What a class act. A true man of the people. How do I become a member of his tribe?


      ".... I just don't have it, nor anything even close....". 
      Aaaahhhh, am I the only one thinking that as odd? 
      No, not saying should cut a check to pay investo5rs, that's not how it works, that is the reality of it. 
      But if your looking to manage a billion dollars in capitol, yeah, I would assume you'd have something at least close to 15 million. 
      That is a big standout statement to me, it doesn't math. 

      I feel there is some serious "clarity" needed in connection to such disfunction of the maths. 

    • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      Reading the comments on Brandon's IG Post, it's crazy how people are being so mean to him. 

      Did you all miss what he's willing to do for you? If you lost all of your money investing with him, he is now willing to allow you to give him MORE of your money to make things right.

      What a class act. A true man of the people. How do I become a member of his tribe?


      ".... I just don't have it, nor anything even close....". 
      Aaaahhhh, am I the only one thinking that as odd? 
      No, not saying should cut a check to pay investo5rs, that's not how it works, that is the reality of it. 
      But if your looking to manage a billion dollars in capitol, yeah, I would assume you'd have something at least close to 15 million. 
      That is a big standout statement to me, it doesn't math. 

      I feel there is some serious "clarity" needed in connection to such disfunction of the maths. 


       Agree, that's pretty bad, but the biggest thing that stood out to me was his plan to save the other dead in the water investments..

      The irony is deafening. This guy is so clueless that he thinks publicly telling people he's got to scale a real estate coaching business because he's so bad at real estate he's gonna need to raise $30 Million over the next 2 years as a last ditch effort to save the other terrible real estate investments he spent people's money on.

      What a friggin stooge man.

    • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @James Wise:
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      Reading the comments on Brandon's IG Post, it's crazy how people are being so mean to him. 

      Did you all miss what he's willing to do for you? If you lost all of your money investing with him, he is now willing to allow you to give him MORE of your money to make things right.

      What a class act. A true man of the people. How do I become a member of his tribe?


      ".... I just don't have it, nor anything even close....". 
      Aaaahhhh, am I the only one thinking that as odd? 
      No, not saying should cut a check to pay investo5rs, that's not how it works, that is the reality of it. 
      But if your looking to manage a billion dollars in capitol, yeah, I would assume you'd have something at least close to 15 million. 
      That is a big standout statement to me, it doesn't math. 

      I feel there is some serious "clarity" needed in connection to such disfunction of the maths. 


       Agree, that's pretty bad, but the biggest thing that stood out to me was his plan to save the other dead in the water investments..

      The irony is deafening. This guy is so clueless that he thinks publicly telling people he's got to scale a real estate coaching business because he's so bad at real estate he's gonna need to raise $30 Million over the next 2 years as a last ditch effort to save the other terrible real estate investments he spent people's money on.

      What a friggin stooge man.


      Uhm..... Ok..... Just breaking that post down to follow the bouncing ball: 

      Think the social cringy stuff is, cringy..... 
      But, gotta do the social cringy stuff.....
      Because the RE Investments are FUBAR. Need to raise $30m in immediacy (yes, 2yrs IS immediacy in commercial) to survive. 
      Aaaaand gonna raise the "srvival funds" via selling REI Hopeium.....

      Aaaah WHA???? 
      The real estate investments are failing, bad. So to survive gotta sell how to real estate invest...... 
      So, isn't that like a boat builder who's boats keep sinking saying they are gonna sell how-2 make boat courses, to get the $$$$, to patch the sinking boats? 

      Look, I get it, the market shifted. 
      Cost of finance changed. 
      The economy shifted. 
      Things didn't stay static for eternity. 
      Do I accept that as an excuse? No, I do not. 
      Understanding sunsets always follow sunrises is not rare or unforeseeable, it's kind of how real estate has worked forever. 
      So they chased the boom, and made bad deals. Like many others. 
      Exactly what was foreseen, warned of, and prepared for by the experienced veterans in the industry, and why those syndicators are not imploding along with them. 

      And reading between the lines, is the ugliest side of things. That there is a lot more imploding to come, that they got no answer for, nothing they can see or are doing with the investments themselves, and there just riding it into the wall. 

      Ok, so what would be a better more honest approach? 
      Put together a how and what NOT to do course, loaded with the real world experience of how what seemed great turned to ashes, and sell that, call it a $250 experience bundle. Every detail of the journey, all the numbers, the entire journal. That would be honest. And, I think well worth the $250 for many. 

      Sell 120k and pow, you got your $$$$. 

      Is there 120k people who would benefit from the knowledge of what NOT to do, yeah, I think so, because it's not just wanna-be syndicators but LP's also. 

      But selling hopeium on how to become a millionaire is obviously targeted at those who have near to no chance of ever doing or getting anything out of it. 
      To become a millionaire in real estate investing takes very few properties, not hundreds, just a handful really. 

      And in investing, similarly, it's truly not a very high bar to hit if have been exercising patience and consistency over time. 

      So we know that whole thing is focused to the brand new, super noob, with all but no anything. 

      In summary, F a new group of people to bail out the other group of currently f'd people, for a bit more time at least. 

      Classy?..... I think not. 

      What else could they do? 
      I don't know, maybe start acting like pro real estate investors and engineer a way to turn lemons into fruit punch vs just playing it basic. 

      "Deals" are not had, there created. Profits are generated. If it was as simple as just deploy capitol and returns roll in reliably Schwab would be the #1 Real Estate Investor.

      So I say WTF Brandon, stop being thought lazy, get creative, you're not being scrapy enough. Did you get too corporate and loose your grit? 

      To me, I'd like to see ODC get scrapy about it, creative, swing for the fences not just do the basics. I hold a higher expectation of scrapiness given the origin. 

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      Reading the comments on Brandon's IG Post, it's crazy how people are being so mean to him. 

      Did you all miss what he's willing to do for you? If you lost all of your money investing with him, he is now willing to allow you to give him MORE of your money to make things right.

      What a class act. A true man of the people. How do I become a member of his tribe?


      ".... I just don't have it, nor anything even close....". 
      Aaaahhhh, am I the only one thinking that as odd? 
      No, not saying should cut a check to pay investo5rs, that's not how it works, that is the reality of it. 
      But if your looking to manage a billion dollars in capitol, yeah, I would assume you'd have something at least close to 15 million. 
      That is a big standout statement to me, it doesn't math. 

      I feel there is some serious "clarity" needed in connection to such disfunction of the maths. 


       Agree, that's pretty bad, but the biggest thing that stood out to me was his plan to save the other dead in the water investments..

      The irony is deafening. This guy is so clueless that he thinks publicly telling people he's got to scale a real estate coaching business because he's so bad at real estate he's gonna need to raise $30 Million over the next 2 years as a last ditch effort to save the other terrible real estate investments he spent people's money on.

      What a friggin stooge man.


      Uhm..... Ok..... Just breaking that post down to follow the bouncing ball: 

      Think the social cringy stuff is, cringy..... 
      But, gotta do the social cringy stuff.....
      Because the RE Investments are FUBAR. Need to raise $30m in immediacy (yes, 2yrs IS immediacy in commercial) to survive. 
      Aaaaand gonna raise the "srvival funds" via selling REI Hopeium.....

      Aaaah WHA???? 
      The real estate investments are failing, bad. So to survive gotta sell how to real estate invest...... 
      So, isn't that like a boat builder who's boats keep sinking saying they are gonna sell how-2 make boat courses, to get the $$$$, to patch the sinking boats? 

      Look, I get it, the market shifted. 
      Cost of finance changed. 
      The economy shifted. 
      Things didn't stay static for eternity. 
      Do I accept that as an excuse? No, I do not. 
      Understanding sunsets always follow sunrises is not rare or unforeseeable, it's kind of how real estate has worked forever. 
      So they chased the boom, and made bad deals. Like many others. 
      Exactly what was foreseen, warned of, and prepared for by the experienced veterans in the industry, and why those syndicators are not imploding along with them. 

      And reading between the lines, is the ugliest side of things. That there is a lot more imploding to come, that they got no answer for, nothing they can see or are doing with the investments themselves, and there just riding it into the wall. 

      Ok, so what would be a better more honest approach? 
      Put together a how and what NOT to do course, loaded with the real world experience of how what seemed great turned to ashes, and sell that, call it a $250 experience bundle. Every detail of the journey, all the numbers, the entire journal. That would be honest. And, I think well worth the $250 for many. 

      Sell 120k and pow, you got your $$$$. 

      Is there 120k people who would benefit from the knowledge of what NOT to do, yeah, I think so, because it's not just wanna-be syndicators but LP's also. 

      But selling hopeium on how to become a millionaire is obviously targeted at those who have near to no chance of ever doing or getting anything out of it. 
      To become a millionaire in real estate investing takes very few properties, not hundreds, just a handful really. 

      And in investing, similarly, it's truly not a very high bar to hit if have been exercising patience and consistency over time. 

      So we know that whole thing is focused to the brand new, super noob, with all but no anything. 

      In summary, F a new group of people to bail out the other group of currently f'd people, for a bit more time at least. 

      Classy?..... I think not. 

      What else could they do? 
      I don't know, maybe start acting like pro real estate investors and engineer a way to turn lemons into fruit punch vs just playing it basic. 

      "Deals" are not had, there created. Profits are generated. If it was as simple as just deploy capitol and returns roll in reliably Schwab would be the #1 Real Estate Investor.

      So I say WTF Brandon, stop being thought lazy, get creative, you're not being scrapy enough. Did you get too corporate and loose your grit? 

      To me, I'd like to see ODC get scrapy about it, creative, swing for the fences not just do the basics. I hold a higher expectation of scrapiness given the origin. 


      its about the team you build and apparently this team was not ready for prime time nor did they walk though black swan events to stress test their investments. 
    • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      Reading the comments on Brandon's IG Post, it's crazy how people are being so mean to him. 

      Did you all miss what he's willing to do for you? If you lost all of your money investing with him, he is now willing to allow you to give him MORE of your money to make things right.

      What a class act. A true man of the people. How do I become a member of his tribe?


      ".... I just don't have it, nor anything even close....". 
      Aaaahhhh, am I the only one thinking that as odd? 
      No, not saying should cut a check to pay investo5rs, that's not how it works, that is the reality of it. 
      But if your looking to manage a billion dollars in capitol, yeah, I would assume you'd have something at least close to 15 million. 
      That is a big standout statement to me, it doesn't math. 

      I feel there is some serious "clarity" needed in connection to such disfunction of the maths. 


       Agree, that's pretty bad, but the biggest thing that stood out to me was his plan to save the other dead in the water investments..

      The irony is deafening. This guy is so clueless that he thinks publicly telling people he's got to scale a real estate coaching business because he's so bad at real estate he's gonna need to raise $30 Million over the next 2 years as a last ditch effort to save the other terrible real estate investments he spent people's money on.

      What a friggin stooge man.


      Uhm..... Ok..... Just breaking that post down to follow the bouncing ball: 

      Think the social cringy stuff is, cringy..... 
      But, gotta do the social cringy stuff.....
      Because the RE Investments are FUBAR. Need to raise $30m in immediacy (yes, 2yrs IS immediacy in commercial) to survive. 
      Aaaaand gonna raise the "srvival funds" via selling REI Hopeium.....

      Aaaah WHA???? 
      The real estate investments are failing, bad. So to survive gotta sell how to real estate invest...... 
      So, isn't that like a boat builder who's boats keep sinking saying they are gonna sell how-2 make boat courses, to get the $$$$, to patch the sinking boats? 

      Look, I get it, the market shifted. 
      Cost of finance changed. 
      The economy shifted. 
      Things didn't stay static for eternity. 
      Do I accept that as an excuse? No, I do not. 
      Understanding sunsets always follow sunrises is not rare or unforeseeable, it's kind of how real estate has worked forever. 
      So they chased the boom, and made bad deals. Like many others. 
      Exactly what was foreseen, warned of, and prepared for by the experienced veterans in the industry, and why those syndicators are not imploding along with them. 

      And reading between the lines, is the ugliest side of things. That there is a lot more imploding to come, that they got no answer for, nothing they can see or are doing with the investments themselves, and there just riding it into the wall. 

      Ok, so what would be a better more honest approach? 
      Put together a how and what NOT to do course, loaded with the real world experience of how what seemed great turned to ashes, and sell that, call it a $250 experience bundle. Every detail of the journey, all the numbers, the entire journal. That would be honest. And, I think well worth the $250 for many. 

      Sell 120k and pow, you got your $$$$. 

      Is there 120k people who would benefit from the knowledge of what NOT to do, yeah, I think so, because it's not just wanna-be syndicators but LP's also. 

      But selling hopeium on how to become a millionaire is obviously targeted at those who have near to no chance of ever doing or getting anything out of it. 
      To become a millionaire in real estate investing takes very few properties, not hundreds, just a handful really. 

      And in investing, similarly, it's truly not a very high bar to hit if have been exercising patience and consistency over time. 

      So we know that whole thing is focused to the brand new, super noob, with all but no anything. 

      In summary, F a new group of people to bail out the other group of currently f'd people, for a bit more time at least. 

      Classy?..... I think not. 

      What else could they do? 
      I don't know, maybe start acting like pro real estate investors and engineer a way to turn lemons into fruit punch vs just playing it basic. 

      "Deals" are not had, there created. Profits are generated. If it was as simple as just deploy capitol and returns roll in reliably Schwab would be the #1 Real Estate Investor.

      So I say WTF Brandon, stop being thought lazy, get creative, you're not being scrapy enough. Did you get too corporate and loose your grit? 

      To me, I'd like to see ODC get scrapy about it, creative, swing for the fences not just do the basics. I hold a higher expectation of scrapiness given the origin. 


       Who's out there selling shorts on Brandon? I'm ready to short that stock because it's sinking all the way to the bottom.

    • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      Reading the comments on Brandon's IG Post, it's crazy how people are being so mean to him. 

      Did you all miss what he's willing to do for you? If you lost all of your money investing with him, he is now willing to allow you to give him MORE of your money to make things right.

      What a class act. A true man of the people. How do I become a member of his tribe?


      ".... I just don't have it, nor anything even close....". 
      Aaaahhhh, am I the only one thinking that as odd? 
      No, not saying should cut a check to pay investo5rs, that's not how it works, that is the reality of it. 
      But if your looking to manage a billion dollars in capitol, yeah, I would assume you'd have something at least close to 15 million. 
      That is a big standout statement to me, it doesn't math. 

      I feel there is some serious "clarity" needed in connection to such disfunction of the maths. 


       Agree, that's pretty bad, but the biggest thing that stood out to me was his plan to save the other dead in the water investments..

      The irony is deafening. This guy is so clueless that he thinks publicly telling people he's got to scale a real estate coaching business because he's so bad at real estate he's gonna need to raise $30 Million over the next 2 years as a last ditch effort to save the other terrible real estate investments he spent people's money on.

      What a friggin stooge man.


      Uhm..... Ok..... Just breaking that post down to follow the bouncing ball: 

      Think the social cringy stuff is, cringy..... 
      But, gotta do the social cringy stuff.....
      Because the RE Investments are FUBAR. Need to raise $30m in immediacy (yes, 2yrs IS immediacy in commercial) to survive. 
      Aaaaand gonna raise the "srvival funds" via selling REI Hopeium.....

      Aaaah WHA???? 
      The real estate investments are failing, bad. So to survive gotta sell how to real estate invest...... 
      So, isn't that like a boat builder who's boats keep sinking saying they are gonna sell how-2 make boat courses, to get the $$$$, to patch the sinking boats? 

      Look, I get it, the market shifted. 
      Cost of finance changed. 
      The economy shifted. 
      Things didn't stay static for eternity. 
      Do I accept that as an excuse? No, I do not. 
      Understanding sunsets always follow sunrises is not rare or unforeseeable, it's kind of how real estate has worked forever. 
      So they chased the boom, and made bad deals. Like many others. 
      Exactly what was foreseen, warned of, and prepared for by the experienced veterans in the industry, and why those syndicators are not imploding along with them. 

      And reading between the lines, is the ugliest side of things. That there is a lot more imploding to come, that they got no answer for, nothing they can see or are doing with the investments themselves, and there just riding it into the wall. 

      Ok, so what would be a better more honest approach? 
      Put together a how and what NOT to do course, loaded with the real world experience of how what seemed great turned to ashes, and sell that, call it a $250 experience bundle. Every detail of the journey, all the numbers, the entire journal. That would be honest. And, I think well worth the $250 for many. 

      Sell 120k and pow, you got your $$$$. 

      Is there 120k people who would benefit from the knowledge of what NOT to do, yeah, I think so, because it's not just wanna-be syndicators but LP's also. 

      But selling hopeium on how to become a millionaire is obviously targeted at those who have near to no chance of ever doing or getting anything out of it. 
      To become a millionaire in real estate investing takes very few properties, not hundreds, just a handful really. 

      And in investing, similarly, it's truly not a very high bar to hit if have been exercising patience and consistency over time. 

      So we know that whole thing is focused to the brand new, super noob, with all but no anything. 

      In summary, F a new group of people to bail out the other group of currently f'd people, for a bit more time at least. 

      Classy?..... I think not. 

      What else could they do? 
      I don't know, maybe start acting like pro real estate investors and engineer a way to turn lemons into fruit punch vs just playing it basic. 

      "Deals" are not had, there created. Profits are generated. If it was as simple as just deploy capitol and returns roll in reliably Schwab would be the #1 Real Estate Investor.

      So I say WTF Brandon, stop being thought lazy, get creative, you're not being scrapy enough. Did you get too corporate and loose your grit? 

      To me, I'd like to see ODC get scrapy about it, creative, swing for the fences not just do the basics. I hold a higher expectation of scrapiness given the origin. 


      its about the team you build and apparently this team was not ready for prime time nor did they walk though black swan events to stress test their investments. 

      I think you hit the nail on the head that they did no stress test, nor had any internal audit function for any "deals". They seemed to have been chasing like countless others. 
      Which is, to me, a sadly novice move. 
      I stress test everything. Every "deal" has to pass my "auditor" who's primary job function is "prove me wrong". 
      Such huge implications resulting from a rate change..... I am sorry but in a post GFC world of real estate there is simply no excuse for that oversight, that lesson should be seared deep into everyone's memory. 

      So was it an oversight? 
      Or just an acceptance? 

      I'd be curious to know if ODC lost any capitol in it, or if all is structured in a way that all risk of loss is on LP's alone.
      For me, if Syndicator has no skin in the game, it's not for me. I'd rather buy an ETF. 

    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:
      Quote from @James Hamling:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      Reading the comments on Brandon's IG Post, it's crazy how people are being so mean to him. 

      Did you all miss what he's willing to do for you? If you lost all of your money investing with him, he is now willing to allow you to give him MORE of your money to make things right.

      What a class act. A true man of the people. How do I become a member of his tribe?


      ".... I just don't have it, nor anything even close....". 
      Aaaahhhh, am I the only one thinking that as odd? 
      No, not saying should cut a check to pay investo5rs, that's not how it works, that is the reality of it. 
      But if your looking to manage a billion dollars in capitol, yeah, I would assume you'd have something at least close to 15 million. 
      That is a big standout statement to me, it doesn't math. 

      I feel there is some serious "clarity" needed in connection to such disfunction of the maths. 


       Agree, that's pretty bad, but the biggest thing that stood out to me was his plan to save the other dead in the water investments..

      The irony is deafening. This guy is so clueless that he thinks publicly telling people he's got to scale a real estate coaching business because he's so bad at real estate he's gonna need to raise $30 Million over the next 2 years as a last ditch effort to save the other terrible real estate investments he spent people's money on.

      What a friggin stooge man.


      Uhm..... Ok..... Just breaking that post down to follow the bouncing ball: 

      Think the social cringy stuff is, cringy..... 
      But, gotta do the social cringy stuff.....
      Because the RE Investments are FUBAR. Need to raise $30m in immediacy (yes, 2yrs IS immediacy in commercial) to survive. 
      Aaaaand gonna raise the "srvival funds" via selling REI Hopeium.....

      Aaaah WHA???? 
      The real estate investments are failing, bad. So to survive gotta sell how to real estate invest...... 
      So, isn't that like a boat builder who's boats keep sinking saying they are gonna sell how-2 make boat courses, to get the $$$$, to patch the sinking boats? 

      Look, I get it, the market shifted. 
      Cost of finance changed. 
      The economy shifted. 
      Things didn't stay static for eternity. 
      Do I accept that as an excuse? No, I do not. 
      Understanding sunsets always follow sunrises is not rare or unforeseeable, it's kind of how real estate has worked forever. 
      So they chased the boom, and made bad deals. Like many others. 
      Exactly what was foreseen, warned of, and prepared for by the experienced veterans in the industry, and why those syndicators are not imploding along with them. 

      And reading between the lines, is the ugliest side of things. That there is a lot more imploding to come, that they got no answer for, nothing they can see or are doing with the investments themselves, and there just riding it into the wall. 

      Ok, so what would be a better more honest approach? 
      Put together a how and what NOT to do course, loaded with the real world experience of how what seemed great turned to ashes, and sell that, call it a $250 experience bundle. Every detail of the journey, all the numbers, the entire journal. That would be honest. And, I think well worth the $250 for many. 

      Sell 120k and pow, you got your $$$$. 

      Is there 120k people who would benefit from the knowledge of what NOT to do, yeah, I think so, because it's not just wanna-be syndicators but LP's also. 

      But selling hopeium on how to become a millionaire is obviously targeted at those who have near to no chance of ever doing or getting anything out of it. 
      To become a millionaire in real estate investing takes very few properties, not hundreds, just a handful really. 

      And in investing, similarly, it's truly not a very high bar to hit if have been exercising patience and consistency over time. 

      So we know that whole thing is focused to the brand new, super noob, with all but no anything. 

      In summary, F a new group of people to bail out the other group of currently f'd people, for a bit more time at least. 

      Classy?..... I think not. 

      What else could they do? 
      I don't know, maybe start acting like pro real estate investors and engineer a way to turn lemons into fruit punch vs just playing it basic. 

      "Deals" are not had, there created. Profits are generated. If it was as simple as just deploy capitol and returns roll in reliably Schwab would be the #1 Real Estate Investor.

      So I say WTF Brandon, stop being thought lazy, get creative, you're not being scrapy enough. Did you get too corporate and loose your grit? 

      To me, I'd like to see ODC get scrapy about it, creative, swing for the fences not just do the basics. I hold a higher expectation of scrapiness given the origin. 

      Here’s my take

       Most Real estate crowdfunding platforms failed because the decision makers making real estate decisions were tech “stars”, not real estate “stars”, in fact not even solid experienced real estate people, just “kids” with bachelors in business 2 years out of school

      Brandon Turner failed because he’s a “Media Star”, not a real estate pro.
      I don’t think he had “bad” intentions.  I just think he didn’t realize how much he didn’t know.   


      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4mo

    I said it on this forum multiple times many years back that multifamily was in a hot temporary CYCLE where debt was low and sell cap rate exit was low. Game of musical chairs. Syndicators used short term debt thinking the rents would grow and debt would rise just a little when they exited. That was their stress test worse case event.

    What actually happened is rents maybe grew 20 to 30 percent and interest rates almost doubled so 100%. 30 percent versus 100 percent you lose almost every time. I don't know what loan was used here. If it was short term interest only that is nuts. Basically the numbers had to be massaged to entice investment for pie in the sky outcomes.

    The multifamily success train stopped. When using debt I believe typically in 10 year fixed debt. Not always but most cycles happen within a 10 year span so odds in your favor some kind of exit or refi will be available that makes sense.

    I looked at multifamily pro-forma's years ago and knew they were a ticking time bomb with no chance of success. When you have large teams of employees you have to go, go, go to make the fees to feed the machine. That isn't good for the investors. if I see one good deal a year in NNN I buy one all cash. If I see 10 I buy 10. I don't buy just to buy.

    The investor worth tens of millions or more likely just writes off the loss with Brandon. The recoup within 3 months or so with other investment. The ones hit the hardest are the accredited investors barely qualifying where it takes many years to save 100k and they are getting wiped out. It could take them many years to recover.

    I am hoping for everyone's sake these multifamily properties are turning around. All the people I know in the space though aren't bailing out mediocre number properties. They want a deal and will wait for the low price.  

  • Brandon VukelichBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Tacoma, WA: 🏢 27 LTRs 🏡 3 STRs · Member since 2018 · 549 posts · 458 votes
    4mo

    It blows my mind how so many GPs didn't understand the market wasn't sustainable. I've never been a GP but was considering participating/starting in syndications back in 2021. Even with my lack of expertise, I didn't see how any projected exits looked "conservative" enough to make sense. Rates were hanging too low, too long and rents were skyrocketing. New supply was going nuts. Rates had to go up at some point and rents had to flatten out. I attended the Michael Blank deal maker event in Dallas back in July 2021 and everyone (a lot of noobs) there were bragging about looking like GP rockstars delivering investor returns in 2-3 years. I know I missed out on some good opportunities but I just didn't have the stomach to get in at that time with the state of the market.

    Broker at Multifamily Properties519 Reviews
  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4mo
    Here is a video someone recorded two years ago on this asset and brought up some interesting points as well as what some of the fees looked like for this deal https://youtu.be/aeFyW1tDgVE?si=PYUlEYFQsYhJDLWW
    7e investments53 Reviews
    • Brandon VukelichBusiness Member
      Real Estate Broker · Tacoma, WA: 🏢 27 LTRs 🏡 3 STRs · Member since 2018 · 549 posts · 458 votes
      4mo
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Here is a video someone recorded two years ago on this asset and brought up some interesting points as well as what some of the fees looked like for this deal

       @Chris Seveney the poor guy has since posted another video update on his $75k loss.

      https://youtube.com/watch?v=IjaMWhJUWqY

      Broker at Multifamily Properties519 Reviews
    • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @Brandon Vukelich:
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Here is a video someone recorded two years ago on this asset and brought up some interesting points as well as what some of the fees looked like for this deal

       @Chris Seveney the poor guy has since posted another video update on his $75k loss.

      https://youtube.com/watch?v=IjaMWhJUWqY


       I do not follow brandon nor have I invested with him, but as someone who is a GP and LP if I was listening to a GP who bragged about working like 10 hours per week and they were under the age of 60 that would scare me away. So the question I would have asked if "you are very vocal about working very little, what is your commitment you have to your $1B in real estate and if you are not working it, who is and what is there experience?" 

      7e investments53 Reviews
    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Quote from @Brandon Vukelich:
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Here is a video someone recorded two years ago on this asset and brought up some interesting points as well as what some of the fees looked like for this deal

       @Chris Seveney the poor guy has since posted another video update on his $75k loss.

      https://youtube.com/watch?v=IjaMWhJUWqY


       I do not follow brandon nor have I invested with him, but as someone who is a GP and LP if I was listening to a GP who bragged about working like 10 hours per week and they were under the age of 60 that would scare me away. So the question I would have asked if "you are very vocal about working very little, what is your commitment you have to your $1B in real estate and if you are not working it, who is and what is there experience?" 


      As I stated there’s a big difference between being a real estate “media star” and a real estate professional.

      The work only 10 hours per week has been part of the guru BS hype as long as I can remember.   Very similar to MLM.  Here are the core lies that media stars / gurus of all industries sell

      1. Formal education is useless and a waste of money - you just need to buy MY program

      2. No experience with the subject area is necessary for success - you just need to buy my program

      3. I work only 10 hours per week, and you can too and still become a billionaire - you just need to buy my program.

      Anyone see a common theme here? 

      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4mo

    So...it was like 75M purchase price, 52M financed, 25M from investors...something like that. This guy increased rent by 30%, and had occupancy up to 95% AND STILL couldn't get the numbers to work. 

    Then purchased at a 3 cap. 3 year balloon. And this was purchased in 2021...at the peak of low rates. Did he think the free money train was just going to go on forever?! 

    And he walks away with a couple million after losing 15 million on other people's money. LOL. Takeaway - always gamble with other people's money. 

    What really gets me is how he goes on social media after explaining that he needs 30M to refinance some other deals or he's going to have the same problem. 

    So what's he going to do? 

    "Social Media. Being cringy. Posting about how real estate can make you wealthy (which it can) and set you free (which it can)."

    So he's going to double down on selling a dream to people so he can essentially steal their money and try to maintain some type of business/reputation. Just openly admitting that he needs your money to save his bad deals. Lol. Who would invest in something like this. I bet you can't get your money out either...maybe get capital called and need to put in more or get diluted/lose it all. 

    That is the thing with this industry - there are some REAL ones but there are WAY MORE "investors" who try and make this WAY BETTER THAN IT IS. They don't make any money. OR make more money selling courses/"education". 

    How much of his own money did he put into the deal? Oh wait...none. He actually made a couple million. 

    He did a Podcast on the Iced Coffee Hour w/ Graham Stephen and came off like a complete a$$hat. Incredibly arrogant and conceited. And so much of it is a facade. 

    I'm sure he's made some good deals along the way and obviously he's incredibly talented when it comes to capital raising, social media etc. But the utter negligence and greediness in this deal speaks volumes towards his other work I'd be sure. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4mo

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/1248708-open-...

    Looks like it's pretty widespread 

    I bet this is even worse than what we're seeing 

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    4mo

    Ultimately, investors took a RISK, in this case the RISK didn’t pan out. 

    In ANY / ALL passive investments, a LARGE part, maybe the largest part of the risk is the PEOPLE you’re betting on.  You’re betting on them to be honest.  You’re betting on them to be expert.  You’re betting on them to be experienced.  To make the right decisions. 

    Sometimes the concept is not good, the economy tanks, or luck is bad and no matter how “good” the sponsor, manager, the investor incurs a loss.  And sometimes, as in this case, someone whose not expert in real estate is able to pass himself off as someone who is; by virtue of third party endorsement, publishing books, and expert use of social media.

    Brandon got in way over his head.  Rather than accept that he lacked the experience and expertise to create an investment scenario that could stand a change in economic climate; he rambles on about starting a mortgage company and an insurance company by which (he hopes) will earn back the losses.  He then mutters a somewhat incomprehensible narrative about how it’s ok to tell newbie investors they can become rich investing in real estate quickly even if it’s not true?    In a word (or two): VERY DISAPPOINTING  

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
    • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @Don Konipol:

      Ultimately, investors took a RISK, in this case the RISK didn’t pan out. 

      In ANY / ALL passive investments, a LARGE part, maybe the largest part of the risk is the PEOPLE you’re betting on.  You’re betting on them to be honest.  You’re betting on them to be expert.  You’re betting on them to be experienced.  To make the right decisions. 

      Sometimes the concept is not good, the economy tanks, or luck is bad and no matter how “good” the sponsor, manager, the investor incurs a loss.  And sometimes, as in this case, someone whose not expert in real estate is able to pass himself off as someone who is; by virtue of third party endorsement, publishing books, and expert use of social media.

      Brandon got in way over his head.  Rather than accept that he lacked the experience and expertise to create an investment scenario that could stand a change in economic climate; he rambles on about starting a mortgage company and an insurance company by which (he hopes) will earn back the losses.  He then mutters a somewhat incomprehensible narrative about how it’s ok to tell newbie investors they can become rich investing in real estate quickly even if it’s not true?    In a word (or two): VERY DISAPPOINTING  


       Nothing sounds more legit than selling investors "how to get rich in real estate advice" as the only way you can keep all of your real estate investments from going to zero.

    • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
      4mo
      Quote from @Don Konipol:

      Ultimately, investors took a RISK, in this case the RISK didn’t pan out. 

      In ANY / ALL passive investments, a LARGE part, maybe the largest part of the risk is the PEOPLE you’re betting on.  You’re betting on them to be honest.  You’re betting on them to be expert.  You’re betting on them to be experienced.  To make the right decisions. 

      Sometimes the concept is not good, the economy tanks, or luck is bad and no matter how “good” the sponsor, manager, the investor incurs a loss.  And sometimes, as in this case, someone whose not expert in real estate is able to pass himself off as someone who is; by virtue of third party endorsement, publishing books, and expert use of social media.

      Brandon got in way over his head.  Rather than accept that he lacked the experience and expertise to create an investment scenario that could stand a change in economic climate; he rambles on about starting a mortgage company and an insurance company by which (he hopes) will earn back the losses.  He then mutters a somewhat incomprehensible narrative about how it’s ok to tell newbie investors they can become rich investing in real estate quickly even if it’s not true?    In a word (or two): VERY DISAPPOINTING  


       unfortunately people need to realize just because someone can speak in front of a microphone does not mean they know how to run a business. This is why most businesses have operations people and marketing/sales people. They are very different and handle very different tasks and assignments. 

      7e investments53 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · La Cote, Switzerland · Member since 2013 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    4mo

    I'd love to hear what red flags were present in hindsight besides the personality.  Has anyone done a comprehensive post-mortem on this deal or others?  Of course the personality over skill is a very valid point, but I suspect there were troubling aspects to this deal starting with the first slide. 

  • Justin R.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · San Anselmo · Member since 2015 · 659 posts · 600 votes
    4mo

    I have invested in several funds with Open Door Capital, so I feel like I have a fairly broad perspective on their track record.

    The discussion here seems heavily focused on one or two distressed deals. Were mistakes made? Absolutely. There’s no point pretending otherwise. Interest rates rose dramatically, cap rates expanded, and in some cases there wasn’t enough foresight around those risks. Investors have every right to be frustrated.

    That said, I think it’s important to look at the full body of work, not just the worst-performing deals. Most of my ODC investments are still performing well, and every fund I’ve personally been in that has gone full cycle produced strong returns.

    What has also stood out to me is how they have handled the difficult situations. They have continued communicating with investors, provided regular updates, and have been transparent and accountable throughout the process. In today’s syndication environment, that’s not something I take for granted.

    I’m all for calling out bad actors when they deserve it. There are certainly operators who have misled investors, gone silent, or failed to take responsibility. Based on my experience across a several ODC investments (as well as many other operators), I can say Open Door Capital does not belong in that category.

  • Real Estate Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 417 posts · 140 votes
    1mo

    @James Wise lol!!! thats funny man. 

  • Justin R.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · San Anselmo · Member since 2015 · 659 posts · 600 votes
    1mo

    I agree with @Jamie Parker.

    Do I think Brandon or any investor is perfect? Of course not. I believe Open Door Capital grew too quickly and took on deals, as well as operating partners such as Disrupt Equity, that it should not have.

    But ODC has also taken several funds full cycle and delivered strong results. We aren’t here discussing those. It’s like a car forum: nobody logs in to announce, “I drove to work and home today, and nothing happened.” Failures generate attention; successful, uneventful outcomes rarely do.

    In my experience, Brandon is a quality investor and a strong leader. I have invested with him, and I will continue to do so. I’ve dealt with other operators who blamed everyone but themselves when things went wrong or simply stopped communicating. On the one ODC fund in which I lost money, the team remained open, honest and communicative throughout the process. They tried everything they reasonably could to save the deal, but ultimately it didn’t work. In my view, the failure began with the acquisition and financing terms, compounded by the timing and speed of the interest-rate increases.

    I also trust @Jay Hinrichs and his reviews. Although it sounds like he doesn’t know Brandon particularly well, Jay understands real estate and gives operators a fair, informed assessment.

    As for @James Wise, I generally avoid his threads because I don’t consider his analysis serious or credible. From what I’ve seen, he has limited insight into institutional real-estate investing, yet repeatedly presents himself as an authority qualified to pass judgment on people operating at a level he has never demonstrated himself. Rather than offering a balanced analysis of the investments, financing structures, market conditions and actual decisions involved, he relies on loaded accusations, personal attacks and inflammatory headlines.

    Calling Brandon a “scam” isn’t thoughtful criticism, it’s attention-seeking theater. It strips away every bit of context, ignores the successful funds and reduces a complicated investment failure to whatever accusation is most likely to generate clicks. James appears far more interested in borrowing relevance from Brandon’s name than in helping investors understand what actually happened.

    Criticism is absolutely fair when investors lose money. But credible criticism requires knowledge, consistency and intellectual honesty. In my opinion, James demonstrates none of those things here. He positions himself as an expert while producing content that reads more like manufactured outrage than informed real-estate analysis.

    The irony of James Wise calling Brandon Turner a scam is difficult to overstate. Brandon has built companies, raised and deployed substantial capital, completed successful investment cycles, publicly confronted failures and continued communicating with investors when deals went badly. James, meanwhile, appears to be standing on the sidelines throwing insults at people doing work he has never shown he can do at a comparable level.

    Brandon’s record should be evaluated in full: the successes, the failures, the decisions that contributed to both, and how he treated investors when a deal went wrong. By that standard, I’m comfortable with my assessment and with continuing to invest alongside him.

    • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Justin R.:

      I agree with @Jamie Parker.

      Do I think Brandon or any investor is perfect? Of course not. I believe Open Door Capital grew too quickly and took on deals, as well as operating partners such as Disrupt Equity, that it should not have.

      But ODC has also taken several funds full cycle and delivered strong results. We aren’t here discussing those. It’s like a car forum: nobody logs in to announce, “I drove to work and home today, and nothing happened.” Failures generate attention; successful, uneventful outcomes rarely do.

      In my experience, Brandon is a quality investor and a strong leader. I have invested with him, and I will continue to do so. I’ve dealt with other operators who blamed everyone but themselves when things went wrong or simply stopped communicating. On the one ODC fund in which I lost money, the team remained open, honest and communicative throughout the process. They tried everything they reasonably could to save the deal, but ultimately it didn’t work. In my view, the failure began with the acquisition and financing terms, compounded by the timing and speed of the interest-rate increases.

      I also trust @Jay Hinrichs and his reviews. Although it sounds like he doesn’t know Brandon particularly well, Jay understands real estate and gives operators a fair, informed assessment.

      As for @James Wise, I generally avoid his threads because I don’t consider his analysis serious or credible. From what I’ve seen, he has limited insight into institutional real-estate investing, yet repeatedly presents himself as an authority qualified to pass judgment on people operating at a level he has never demonstrated himself. Rather than offering a balanced analysis of the investments, financing structures, market conditions and actual decisions involved, he relies on loaded accusations, personal attacks and inflammatory headlines.

      Calling Brandon a “scam” isn’t thoughtful criticism, it’s attention-seeking theater. It strips away every bit of context, ignores the successful funds and reduces a complicated investment failure to whatever accusation is most likely to generate clicks. James appears far more interested in borrowing relevance from Brandon’s name than in helping investors understand what actually happened.

      Criticism is absolutely fair when investors lose money. But credible criticism requires knowledge, consistency and intellectual honesty. In my opinion, James demonstrates none of those things here. He positions himself as an expert while producing content that reads more like manufactured outrage than informed real-estate analysis.

      The irony of James Wise calling Brandon Turner a scam is difficult to overstate. Brandon has built companies, raised and deployed substantial capital, completed successful investment cycles, publicly confronted failures and continued communicating with investors when deals went badly. James, meanwhile, appears to be standing on the sidelines throwing insults at people doing work he has never shown he can do at a comparable level.

      Brandon’s record should be evaluated in full: the successes, the failures, the decisions that contributed to both, and how he treated investors when a deal went wrong. By that standard, I’m comfortable with my assessment and with continuing to invest alongside him.


       He's built a syndication business that loses money as well as a coaching business that loses money. I've sold more than $250 million dollars worth of real estate. I'm not sitting on any sidelines friend.

      If I had to guess, you carry water for him because you've got money tied up in some of his other struggling funds. You're trying as hard as you can convince enough people to throw more money at him so those investments don't go belly up too.

    • Real Estate Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 417 posts · 140 votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Justin R.:

      I agree with @Jamie Parker.

      Do I think Brandon or any investor is perfect? Of course not. I believe Open Door Capital grew too quickly and took on deals, as well as operating partners such as Disrupt Equity, that it should not have.

      But ODC has also taken several funds full cycle and delivered strong results. We aren’t here discussing those. It’s like a car forum: nobody logs in to announce, “I drove to work and home today, and nothing happened.” Failures generate attention; successful, uneventful outcomes rarely do.

      In my experience, Brandon is a quality investor and a strong leader. I have invested with him, and I will continue to do so. I’ve dealt with other operators who blamed everyone but themselves when things went wrong or simply stopped communicating. On the one ODC fund in which I lost money, the team remained open, honest and communicative throughout the process. They tried everything they reasonably could to save the deal, but ultimately it didn’t work. In my view, the failure began with the acquisition and financing terms, compounded by the timing and speed of the interest-rate increases.

      I also trust @Jay Hinrichs and his reviews. Although it sounds like he doesn’t know Brandon particularly well, Jay understands real estate and gives operators a fair, informed assessment.

      As for @James Wise, I generally avoid his threads because I don’t consider his analysis serious or credible. From what I’ve seen, he has limited insight into institutional real-estate investing, yet repeatedly presents himself as an authority qualified to pass judgment on people operating at a level he has never demonstrated himself. Rather than offering a balanced analysis of the investments, financing structures, market conditions and actual decisions involved, he relies on loaded accusations, personal attacks and inflammatory headlines.

      Calling Brandon a “scam” isn’t thoughtful criticism, it’s attention-seeking theater. It strips away every bit of context, ignores the successful funds and reduces a complicated investment failure to whatever accusation is most likely to generate clicks. James appears far more interested in borrowing relevance from Brandon’s name than in helping investors understand what actually happened.

      Criticism is absolutely fair when investors lose money. But credible criticism requires knowledge, consistency and intellectual honesty. In my opinion, James demonstrates none of those things here. He positions himself as an expert while producing content that reads more like manufactured outrage than informed real-estate analysis.

      The irony of James Wise calling Brandon Turner a scam is difficult to overstate. Brandon has built companies, raised and deployed substantial capital, completed successful investment cycles, publicly confronted failures and continued communicating with investors when deals went badly. James, meanwhile, appears to be standing on the sidelines throwing insults at people doing work he has never shown he can do at a comparable level.

      Brandon’s record should be evaluated in full: the successes, the failures, the decisions that contributed to both, and how he treated investors when a deal went wrong. By that standard, I’m comfortable with my assessment and with continuing to invest alongside him.

       @Justin R. If BT and ODC did something illegal, deceptive and/or criminal: they should get everything coming to them from the public and the courts. However If they only lost money, then I wont be one to "pile on" just because he is a public figure. On LinkedIn there is a fair criticism across the board for failed syndicators. More so, Why they failed vs that they failed. If brings insight for others and allows the discipline of investing to be seen in action. 

      Ive never purchased a course for BT, and I probably wont at this point. Not because of the scandal but I have found other resources that suit what i am doing. The Fact that he is trying to right the ship is interesting because now I am curious to know what other operators have to done to correct bad assumptions after the deal closed. 

      There is just more to the discussion than "Brandon Turner is a scam and stealing peoples money" Either more investors will speak out or someone will due more discovery. If it doesn't end up in front of a Judge then you know that there was no "Scam" 

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Justin R.:

      I agree with @Jamie Parker.

      Do I think Brandon or any investor is perfect? Of course not. I believe Open Door Capital grew too quickly and took on deals, as well as operating partners such as Disrupt Equity, that it should not have.

      But ODC has also taken several funds full cycle and delivered strong results. We aren’t here discussing those. It’s like a car forum: nobody logs in to announce, “I drove to work and home today, and nothing happened.” Failures generate attention; successful, uneventful outcomes rarely do.

      In my experience, Brandon is a quality investor and a strong leader. I have invested with him, and I will continue to do so. I’ve dealt with other operators who blamed everyone but themselves when things went wrong or simply stopped communicating. On the one ODC fund in which I lost money, the team remained open, honest and communicative throughout the process. They tried everything they reasonably could to save the deal, but ultimately it didn’t work. In my view, the failure began with the acquisition and financing terms, compounded by the timing and speed of the interest-rate increases.

      I also trust @Jay Hinrichs and his reviews. Although it sounds like he doesn’t know Brandon particularly well, Jay understands real estate and gives operators a fair, informed assessment.

      As for @James Wise, I generally avoid his threads because I don’t consider his analysis serious or credible. From what I’ve seen, he has limited insight into institutional real-estate investing, yet repeatedly presents himself as an authority qualified to pass judgment on people operating at a level he has never demonstrated himself. Rather than offering a balanced analysis of the investments, financing structures, market conditions and actual decisions involved, he relies on loaded accusations, personal attacks and inflammatory headlines.

      Calling Brandon a “scam” isn’t thoughtful criticism, it’s attention-seeking theater. It strips away every bit of context, ignores the successful funds and reduces a complicated investment failure to whatever accusation is most likely to generate clicks. James appears far more interested in borrowing relevance from Brandon’s name than in helping investors understand what actually happened.

      Criticism is absolutely fair when investors lose money. But credible criticism requires knowledge, consistency and intellectual honesty. In my opinion, James demonstrates none of those things here. He positions himself as an expert while producing content that reads more like manufactured outrage than informed real-estate analysis.

      The irony of James Wise calling Brandon Turner a scam is difficult to overstate. Brandon has built companies, raised and deployed substantial capital, completed successful investment cycles, publicly confronted failures and continued communicating with investors when deals went badly. James, meanwhile, appears to be standing on the sidelines throwing insults at people doing work he has never shown he can do at a comparable level.

      Brandon’s record should be evaluated in full: the successes, the failures, the decisions that contributed to both, and how he treated investors when a deal went wrong. By that standard, I’m comfortable with my assessment and with continuing to invest alongside him.


      I did a pod cast where brandon and Josh were the host.. Brandon was very kind in pitching our Aherohome charity a few years ago at BP con and got us over the top.. I am very grateful for that.  I did have a breif lunch with him in Maui met him and Murdock at his house then drove to a causal spot with my wife along as well.. we just chit chatted and he talked about how to use SM to expand a brand. 

      My concern for Brandon would be the one Post that claimed there may have been undisclosed mark ups .. IE  raising money above what was needed and then not disclosing it and keeping those funds.. I worked for Syndicator in the 80s who did that and it put him in jail.  My first experince of how ownership can manipulate these deals and the negative ramifications if its true and folks start sueing you. 
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    1mo

    Apartment investments leveraging debt TO MAKE THE DEAL WORK are a disaster waiting to happen.

    The deal needs to work without debt for acceptable returns AND THEN if debt supercharges the returns with long term fixed debt then icing on the cake.

    The problem with lots of syndicators is they have big teams of mouths to feed so they try to slice a deal any which way to try and induce capital investment to pump out deals. That is NOT putting your investors first folks. That is introducing them to extreme risk.  

    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Joel Owens:

      Apartment investments leveraging debt TO MAKE THE DEAL WORK are a disaster waiting to happen.

      The deal needs to work without debt for acceptable returns AND THEN if debt supercharges the returns with long term fixed debt then icing on the cake.

      The problem with lots of syndicators is they have big teams of mouths to feed so they try to slice a deal any which way to try and induce capital investment to pump out deals. That is NOT putting your investors first folks. That is introducing them to extreme risk.  

      EXACTLY!
      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
    • Real Estate Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 417 posts · 140 votes
      1mo

      @Joel Owens 

      In the scenario that BT is looking to execute, that should actually be GP contribution, correct? He cant loan to the deal the he is a equity partner in. He cant be on the equity and the debt side of the same deal. Coming with mezzanine debt could possible help the  deal to close the gap between the equity and the senior debt. However the risk is immense because it truly comes down to when the asset can refinance to convert the debt to more suitable stabilized financing.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    1mo

    Jamie I call it ( massaging the debt ) to try and make projections work. It's not a practice I believe in. More times than not it doesn't work out.

    I would rather build a strong foundation deal by deal even if it means less volume.

    The answer is don't massage debt in the first place to call them deals to invest in.

    • Real Estate Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 417 posts · 140 votes
      1mo

      @Joel Owens that capital call ain't a fun conversation I would imagine. 

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