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Where do gurus get these ideas?

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Antonio Bodley

Alabama

Mar 13 '12, 06:24 PM


Than is way too expensive with his coaching program, which is why I never signed up. I can't blame you for walking out.

Originally posted by David Wedemire:
David Wedemire I never met one in person, so I can't say. I take it you have though.

I went to Than Merrill's symposium in San Diego a few years back and ate lunch with The Man himself and his two partners. I didn't hang around for too long.



Brodrick Smith

Virtual Assistant from Fort Worth, Texas

Jan 15 '13, 03:44 PM


I am into Internet marketing as well as Real Estate but never mix the two as far as building real estate digital download internet programs. I have also been on the backend of some of these new REI program releases. They are nothing more than rehashed real estate info repackaged and sold in a way that Internet marketers sale or promote. What's crazy is the challenges if you sell the most B.S. as an affiliate to these digital download systems . Top seller gets 5 or 10 thousand dollars in cold cash 2nd place gets Kindle fire and so on. That let's me know it's not designed to help you the newbie investor. Internet marketing is designed to work on automation because the product is online. Real Estate on the other had is a trench system always has been always will be. You can use the Internet to leverage info (I.e. buyers/sellers list or how to locate pre foreclosures they have paid sites that sell you this info. Etc.) but you have to know something about the property that you are trying to sell. Even with notes I still have to call banks and know what to say and have all my ducks inline before I can get a pool. Even if I broker the notes there are still contracts involved. So how could I sell you a program that does all of this and you live in New England and I live in Texas. There are different laws that govern and you could very much loose your assets or be jailed listening to me tell you how I do it in Texas.

They are making money twice the guy who sent you the email customized with you name, and the guy who created the program. Think about this they send you the link you click out and a new price appears. Lol that a joke! They are internet marketers selling online real estate at a time where real estate is vulnerable. It's a niche to them BEWARE.

You could learn more on Bigger Pockets for free.



Michael Quarles Video Donor

Real Estate Investor from Bakersfield, California

Jan 15 '13, 04:07 PM
7 votes


Where do Guru's get their ides....



Medium_new_logo_bMichael Quarles, Yellow Letters
E-Mail: [email protected]
Telephone: (661)864-7860
Website: http://www.BuySellFixFLip.com
Listen to My Podcasts at www.BuySellFixFlip.com & Enter to Win 36000 Pieces of Mail Free!


Steve Babiak

Real Estate Investor from Audubon, Pennsylvania

Jan 15 '13, 04:20 PM


@Michael Quarles - do you mean to tell us that reading the newspaper has given them the ideas? :) LOL And I thought the internet is causing the newspapers to die a slow death ...



Steve Babiak, Redeeming Properties, LLC
Telephone: 6109082183
...


William Bannister

Commercial Landlord from Oshkosh, Wisconsin

Jan 15 '13, 04:43 PM
1 vote


Let me give you 2 secrets to being a real estate guru. 1) Reading! Read every book on your local library on the matter of real estate investing and finance as it related to real estate. here are a few authors to start with Conti and Finkle , William Bronchick, Ron Legrand, John beck, Donald Trump, Robert Kiyosaki, Sam Zell, j Paul Getty ,Warren Buffet, Libraries are free!
Shemin,Larry Loftis, Ray Alcorn. Try to read every free book u can on the matter and find a mentor that has the net worth your trying to achieve.
2) The second secret is experience. the best way to build 5 years experience in one year is do 5 years worth of work in 1 year. If you have been in this business 20 years and have only done 20 deals thats probably only really 2 years worth of experience if that. I know people that do 50 deals a year and have been doing that for 30 years. those are the type of people that can tell you about anything you want to know in this business. This is one of the reason I always have to revert to reading material on real estate because so often its hard for even to find someone that has done as many deals as I have.
Ron legrand is an example of an author in this business that has done a 1000 deals. Also even though Trump may not have done 1000 deals he has experience doing deals with large amounts of capital that can give you insight as to how using other people in a deal for capital or credit and financing can work to put a deal together. I like his Art of the deal book its older but still talks about strategy. The things he does at the sky scraper level can also be done with 10k junker houses.
Ron legrand is a great teacher of Wholesaling.
Larry Loftis teaches tax deed and lien investing. some of the other authors teach apt investing which is very conventional.
Formula for success is learn a lot and treat this business like like a career and get as much information as possible. Use this site and others to expand your ideas ask lots of questions and protect your wallet. Big expensive boot camps are not unnecessary save your cash for down pmts or to pay cash for deals;)
Hope this helps a little I do buy courses from time to time and years ago I bought a commercial course from Ron Legrand I liked for a couple hundred.
Having a brokers license is a great education too but maintaining it as an investor may not be necessary.


Edited Jan 15 2013, 16:51 by William Bannister


Kent Anderson

Note Investor from Black Forest, Colorado

Jan 15 '13, 11:28 PM
2 votes


Noticeably, real estate gurus are vehemently hated with great adulation by some BP posters. After reading their accusations, half-truths and judgments, I am concerned.

Realize, many non-real estate people are directed to BP for information about real estate investors and the industry in general.

What conclusion do you think they come to when reading these posts? The majority of which are based on supposition, are hateful, sarcastic, witless and thus, useless.

After reading these posts, what kind of people do you think will gravitate to our industry?

I submit to you, our real estate industry is rewarding, serving, profitable, challenging and downright fun.

As in all industries, there are pro guru’s and, sleaze-bag gurus.

There are about five educators (who you call Guru’s) that I hold in very high regard and i will say without hesitation, "what they forget about the real estate in day is more than you (me included) would learn in a lifetime." This includes the High Minded BP Guru writers too.

For over 20 years the few Gurus I learn from do charge for their seminars and rightly so, at an average of $500 per. Others are local pros who genuinely like to help people succeed as long as you try. They are in every town regardless of size and, are true servant leaders.

They do NOT mentor me for a FEE. They eagerly help me with transactions on the phone without an appointment and never ask for a penny in return, true mentors.

Their character and integrity are exemplified without conscious effort and that says something.

They explain the good and the bad aspects of real estate and most importantly, they hold themselves accountable.

How about BP Guru’s? Many are noticeably absent of unaccountable as they write behind initials only. Are you including them your opinion of gurus? Evidently so.

Of course, we exclude women from this category of “initials only” for their own safety. These days, regrettably, all women deserve and need the protection of privacy.

My wife’s refrigerator magnet says… “Don’t judge people just because they sin differently than you do.”

Well said and OUCH! Certainly, reminds me of the judgmental and stupid things I say and do, daily. I’m just thankful people are so forgiving. How about you?

Yes, it would take a conscious effort but why not spend our time in a servant leadership role producing good things instead of slander?

As my Dad, a 90-year ex-Iowa farmer says, "if you don’t have anything good to say, don’t say it.” Simple enough, wouldn’t you agree?

My vote is, we blow right by the ever-expanding governmental control of our free enterprise real estate business and use our talents and knowledge learned from our gurus to create cleaner, smarter, other-centered, self-reliant real estate transactions to benefit fellow BP members, our family, friends, neighbors, state and nation.

My vote, appreciate not denigrate.
Kent


Edited Jan 15 2013, 23:34 by Kent Anderson


Rich Weese Donor

Real Estate Investor from sioux falls, South Dakota

Jan 16 '13, 04:55 AM
1 vote


As one of the older guys here on bigger pockets, I remember the days when there were hardly any gurus. Somehow, many of us were able to become successful without the magic tool or concept that is being bantied around these days by the various gurus. It is also interesting to see how many of these have either ended up broke or in prison! I believe the most motivational item I ever found was the book by William Nickerson, how I turned $1000 into $1 million in real estate and he later updated this book as he turned the 1 million into even more. Rich



Bill G.

Real Estate Investor from Springfield, Missouri

Jan 16 '13, 06:29 AM
1 vote


@Michael Quarles, hey man, did you get parolled? LOL, How are ya?

Where do they get ideas? I'd bet many come from other gurus, I believe there is a secret club that devises the secrets of real estate....really, you have to expect them to communicate among themselves to some extent.

I admit, I have seen some good marketing aspects from a few. I have never seen anything that is new but an old basic idea that was adapted to some niche and presented as new.

BP is the second RE forum site I found years ago. After participating in the forums I found that it was a "guru" owned site, but he rarely posted. I'd give him a C+, maybe a B-. I didn't have direct contact with him, but with the site admin, they made me a moderator even after being critical of some of the material there and found that some updates then conformed to my suggestions. Many here have been there. I mention this because that's where it started, my comments on guru subjects.

The danger is, that many of the wannabe gurus, some here, give bad advice, some actually advocating illegal activities and some saying basically ignore the regulations and go make some money.

The other issue is most aren't qualified to teach the class, the have poorly written contracts, I was recently sent one to review and the Option kept referring to the parties as "Buyer" and "Seller" instead of "Optionee" and "Optionor" and indication that the promoter doesn't have a clue.

I made a few enemies bashing and in a couple instances running off some wannabies from that other site....too bad, just as Josh deems a finance bunch as off limits here, I did so there with good reason. Sometimes they pop up here, so now you have some history.

I was a finance cop, a regulator and still have that mindset and will continue to have. That is a threat to any wannabe guru attempting to establish a presence of expertise with poor advice or limited knowledge. I see where one possible wannabie referrs to his expierence as something like substantial or in vague terms, certainly a red flag.

I see others who hide thier profile, what does that say?

I can tell who knows thier stuff and who blows smoke, the difference between marketing and meat. Those that blow smoke should expect to be called out, if that makes me a BP guru, so be it, at least my opinion won't cost you.

I think readers are better served on BP with some of the older members, that have actual knowledge and experience, that will jump in and curb the marketeers, especially those who are new and have not proven thier expertise in detail, simply making claims as to "how to" especially when they are offering "coaching" or "programs" for a fee.

My goal is pretty simple, keep new (and maybe more established investors) from getting in trouble, getting ripped off or following bad advice, I don't charge a dime doing it. Take it or leave it.



Joshua Dorkin Verified Donor

BiggerPockets Founder from Denver, Colorado

Jan 16 '13, 07:54 AM
4 votes


Originally posted by Bill Gulley:
My goal is pretty simple, keep new (and maybe more established investors) from getting in trouble, getting ripped off or following bad advice, I don't charge a dime doing it. Take it or leave it.

That's our goal too, Bill.

We've been constructing our Start Here page to help new users and old better understand the purpose of this place, how to get started, and most importantly, the BiggerPockets Mindset. In many cases, that mindset is very different from that of the guru, which is why there are a rare few who come here. Most have come and left because they aren't given the ability to pitch endlessly on our forums or elsewhere.

That said, there are some "gurus" who are not only knowledgeable, but that also have great information to share. However, I believe that because of the sales tactics that they use, they undermine their own message to those folks who understand the game. Savvy people can see through the gamesmanship that they use and are just tired of it.

To those who complain of posters here that are critical of gurus, perhaps you haven't spent thousands and thousands of dollars with one of them who didn't deliver -- the guy offering one on one training, but who has inexperienced instructors teaching it OR the guru offering phone support and calls, but who gives you a brief opportunity to talk to him, but never enough to be of any help. These and many others are hurting themselves and everyone else.

Do people put all the gurus in a basket? Yes. Is it completely fair, no. But unfortunately, most of these guys deserve the bad rap they get.

When you put yourself on a pedestal and start claiming to be an expert, there is an expectation that you set up for yourself. Most industry experts in other fields are labeled that based on proven experience. In REI, anyone can decide that they want to be a guru regardless of credibility or success. That's a scary thing.

On another note, it seems that some gurus are changing their ways -- instead of massive up front costs for training, they are offering monthly memberships now where users can access private forums and other "secret" information available no where else. They charge steep monthly prices for access. This is the new way -- a path to recurring income which is certainly more sustainable.

BUT - For those looking for a bridge to buy, I've got one for you . . .

There are no secrets. There's nothing you'll get from some private guru forum that you won't find here or on any of the other forums online.

Bottom line -- I really, truly wish these guys would change their practices. By adopting more transparent techniques and by being more up front about their offerings, they would build much better reputations for themselves and their industry.

AND we'd all be better for it.

Remember, it isn't only the gurus who get a black eye for the actions of the slick snake-oil guys, it is also ALL real estate investors.

I've had some people get angry at me because they believe that BiggerPockets is decidedly anti-guru . . . we're pro-investor. And if we have to be anti-guru to be pro-investor, then I guess they are right. But I don't believe that's the case.



Medium_bp-squareJoshua Dorkin, BiggerPockets
E-Mail: [email protected]
Telephone: 877-831-4704
Website: http://www.biggerpockets.com
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Joel Owens Verified Moderator

Commercial Real Estate Broker from Canton, Georgia

Jan 16 '13, 08:20 AM
2 votes


I had a person call me the other day out of the blue. He had saved up around 25,000 to get started in real estate. These people with courses were hounding him trying to get him to spend all his money.

I told him what I thought which is that if he is going to spend any money do it LOCALLY with other experienced investors in his marketplace. Take them to lunch, coffee, whatever to find a way to learn from them what is working in their local market.

Many of these national programs just re-hash existing stuff or say strategies that will not be as effective in the program purchasers market.

Usually if an investor is interested in a topic they can find people who have already bought the course, or you can buy their book which lists most of the info anyways for cheap, or look to Ebay or other places for people reselling what they bought for 10 cents on the dollar.

The point is do not take your hard earned money and give it away and then have nothing to invest in real estate. That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.



Medium_allworldrealtyJoel Owens, All World Realty
E-Mail: [email protected]
Telephone: 678-779-2798
Website: http://www.AWcommercial.com
www.AWcommercial.com 678-779-2798 [email protected]


David Krulac

Real Estate Investor from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania

Jan 16 '13, 04:26 PM
1 vote


@RichWeese

I had the pleasure of meeting William Nickerson and hear him speak, years ago. His real estate books are timeless, and I'd consider him the grandaddy of real estate investing. Before Nickerson, real estate investing was reserved for very few people. He didn't write the first real estate book, but Nickerson did write the first real estate book that sold million of copies and popularized real estate investing for the average person. He said that anybody with average ability, average savings and average luck could become a millionaire. He said that when he published his first book in 1959, which was later revised and updated in 1969 and 1980. The latest version was entitled "How I turned $1,000 into Five Million In Real Estate." I have real all of Nickerson's books and would highly recomend that everybody read his books. The dollar figures are way off because of the age of the books, but don't let that throw you off. Every other real estate guru, whether good, bad, wothwhile or a waste of time owe their business to the first and greatest real estate guru, William Nickerson.



John Jackson

Real Estate Investor from North Richland Hills, Texas

Jan 16 '13, 04:49 PM


I think the first thing people need to look at when jumping into real estate...is...what is the area that is a good niche for them? The stuff people sell in seminars etc. may very well work fine, but the attendees are so busy trying to find the next golden key that they buy everything and every level of course available.
When I got started, there were 2 people I kind of latched on to...but only after I decided lease options were the way I wanted to go.
Truth is though...that I spent a lot more than $5k or $10k trying to learn on my own and only partially relying on them.
I wish I had leaned on them more.
There is a lot more to real estate than contracts.
There is the whole business side to it.
Years later, I loathed the idea of teaching people how to do what I did, because of the stigma associated with the "gurus".
I had a booth at a RE convention many years ago for my business (not teaching) and I laughed at what I saw. Amazing.
There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman.
The secret, is knowing which you are dealing with.



Will Barnard Verified Moderator Donor

Real Estate Investor from Santa Clarita, California

Jan 17 '13, 09:08 PM


Noticeably, real estate gurus are vehemently hated with great adulation by some BP posters. After reading their accusations, half-truths and judgments, I am concerned.

Realize, many non-real estate people are directed to BP for information about real estate investors and the industry in general.

What conclusion do you think they come to when reading these posts? The majority of which are based on supposition, are hateful, sarcastic, witless and thus, useless.

I beg to differ. While most gurus are "hated" by the general poulation of BP Nation, it is with great reason, not just to be jerks about it. When others are directed to BP looking for RE info, at least on BP they get the truth. I think they come to the conclusion that the BP membership provides real advice (for free mind you) and looks out for the new guy so he does not get burned (and that goes for the ladies too)

While some may be sarcastic and a few witless comments., on the whole, the nehative comments regarding the gurus comes not from supposition, but from previous experiences and personal knowledge. providing the truths about the crooks keeps others from getting burned and what is wrong with that I ask?



Medium_be_logoWill Barnard, Barnard Enterprises, Inc.
Website: http://www.barnardenterprises.com
http://www.InvestorExperts.com - For all Southern California House Flippers, Agents, and Wholesalers


James Vermillion Donor

Real Estate Investor from Lexington, Kentucky

Jan 18 '13, 05:46 AM


I am one of the "guru haters" on this site and do not shy away from my stance whatsoever. I put guru hater in quotes because that might be how some people see my view, not because it is the truth. One thing to remember is this is a forum with many people reading, and it is very difficult to give advice to individuals unless you know all of the circumstances surrounding the situation...well that rarely, if ever happens. So, you have to give the best advice possible based on what you know.

I honestly believe most people are wasting money when the pay for guru programs, so when a new member comes to BP asking for advice I recommend they keep their money tight, at least until they learn a little bit about this business and take the time to research the program and people behind the program they are about to spend their money on.

Have a been sarcastic and even made a few witless comments...probably, but it is not because I hate all real estate investing "gurus", I just do not like seeing people make mistakes before they even get started. I am sure there are some great programs out there, and if someone has done their due diligence and is confident the program is the best use of their time and money, I wish them luck. However, I will continue to advice against people spending thousands of dollars they often do not have to spend on a program that may not teach them anything.



Ryan Mullin

Real Estate Investor from Indianapolis, Indiana

Jan 18 '13, 08:22 AM
2 votes


Don't buy a program, system, course, or a seminar... Buy a house! Some of these mentoring programs are 20K - 30K! You can buy a house for the same cost! You can't replace real world experience. Its just not possible.



Telephone: 317-965-8708
Website: http://fshouses.com
Flips, Holds, Wholesale, Turnkey. Indianapolis.


Account Closed

Real Estate Investor from

Apr 17 '13, 12:12 PM


Originally posted by @James Vermillion:
I am one of the "guru haters" on this site and do not shy away from my stance whatsoever. I put guru hater in quotes because that might be how some people see my view, not because it is the truth. One thing to remember is this is a forum with many people reading, and it is very difficult to give advice to individuals unless you know all of the circumstances surrounding the situation...well that rarely, if ever happens. So, you have to give the best advice possible based on what you know.

I honestly believe most people are wasting money when the pay for guru programs, so when a new member comes to BP asking for advice I recommend they keep their money tight, at least until they learn a little bit about this business and take the time to research the program and people behind the program they are about to spend their money on.

Have a been sarcastic and even made a few witless comments...probably, but it is not because I hate all real estate investing "gurus", I just do not like seeing people make mistakes before they even get started. I am sure there are some great programs out there, and if someone has done their due diligence and is confident the program is the best use of their time and money, I wish them luck. However, I will continue to advice against people spending thousands of dollars they often do not have to spend on a program that may not teach them anything.

Hi James Vermillion (that's odd, the "at sign" from your name doesn't show - oh well) and all readers of BP...

REI IN A BOX?
IN HINDSIGHT, I would have taken a different route to my REI education. HOWEVER, I did learn a lot from @j. scott scheel (hey, @Joshua Dorkin, is the mention function a li'l buggy? i can't hail j scott scheel - a member here) thru his commercial RE seminars. he was fair and not so hype-y, when you compare him to the guru bunch, in his promotion of courses.

My reason for going to seminar world way back when was for similar reasons others did/do: i wanted to hit the ground running with the "proper" guidelines for evaluating property. i was hoping for a road map... a business plan in a box. i think this is similar to those who look for a training coach to get fit. no one needs a coach or trainer to lose weight, get healthy, etc. especially when you're the one doing all the work to get to that physical fitness you seek.

HINDSIGHT: 20/20
The reality of it is what I originally had hoped to learn in 5 days, I eventually came to understand in about 30-45 days of daily doing.

I coulda, shoulda, woulda spent the 5 days reading BP forums, listening to podcasts, and selected a few books from amazon for my foundation material.

Even the tools that are available today (and back then) aren't any good until you really understand the fundamentals. THEN, the tools are good for saving time - assuming they are working properly. The allure of guru's and their systems is the hope to follow a streamlined system ... the hope for the quickest path to riches.

WHO RIPPED WHOM OFF?
Maybe it's more an ethical question or is it a business question(?)... is it truly a waste of money when someone willingly pays for whatever package/system/house? :)

I think the value is best determined after proper DD (due diligence)! Just like buying a car or a house or a product/service, it's wise to take time to do the research before spending a large sum of $ towards your desired outcome. BUT if you choose to go with your gut, and you spent 20k for what you only later EVENTUALLY find out that you could have spent 20days reading BP, then NO ONE ripped you off. This is where we need to exercise some self-responsibility. come on, no one told you that they were the only and best way to making money... and even if they did, why would you choose to believe them? again, your personal choice. but..but.. they told me that I can make millions investing in commercial and with their guidance... sure, of course they did... and of course they're the best and only place to go to...

In the land of opportunity and we, the people, who know there are so many choices, maybe we need to exercise some critical thinking. I admit that I was enamored by the presentation and then the herd mentality guidance of (1 + guru + 20k = success) simplistic formula. only after eventual a$$ backwards DD and some critical thinking after the mass hypnosis did I realize other (better) paths of learning what I learned.

In most cases, including mine, I ripped myself off... I sold myself, just like most everyone who chose the guru/package/seminar did. I chose the illusion of the "shortcut" (that's what i believed, they didn't tell me it was a shortcut).

IF I ONLY KNEW THEN WHAT I KNOW NOW

ya, the best way to get to the above subtitle is by doing your dd before investing in anything.

i certainly learned the more expensive way (in time and money). was it worth it? I have nothing to compare it to... i have no what-if path to contrast. I've learned to look before i leap - where it deals with parting from a lump sum at least! the point is that I've learned the lesson of DD... and sure, tuition fees vary from person to person for that lesson. but if it's not this lesson you pay the price, there's a lotta other lessons that people will eventually pay "the price" for. ;)



John Carpenter

Tulsa, Oklahoma

Apr 28 '13, 01:15 AM


My step father was doing fine buying houses usually picked up several a year did it for years
While down in vegas afew years ago they lucked into a GURU
soon after they knew the truth these guys are magical
They decided to fly here and there
One guru after another and naturally buy all their trash and believe it
Then got one of my sisters into it (who was running a successful business)and paid her way the first few times soon she was an addict
I don't know the total spent gathering all this wonderful knowledge
But after putting it to use and many phone calls with them getting awesome advice

He ended up losing each and every house and bankrupt
Sis quit a little sooner, right before the divorce , out of business and lost quite a chunk of change and a husband
They had a healthy stash and lots of little plastic cards to use so. it took several years to break them
I'm the poor boy in the family ..... But I am living better than they are
And have a little to play with so naturally am GURU hunting (not)



John Carpenter

Tulsa, Oklahoma

Apr 28 '13, 02:25 AM


This is an addition to the above post
I left out the part about sister (a) soon was an expert and prior to her demise

She was very helpful and decided to pass on some of her profound knowledge to sister B and her husband who lived in a nice neighborhood
Soon sisB found a home in aWonderland part of town called money land where sis A lived.

she had learned from one of the wizards that the property's there came with money trees in the yards, if you get in on one of these great deals they can hook you up with
they are worth more every day !
Sis B and hubby ....got in way way over their heads
And now thought they had to play keep up with the jones at the new place (more debt)
Listed Old house didn't sell so decided to try renting to help make both payments
Renters were lemons
They were to easy at first partial payments ect
Finally got sheriff to remove them after months and months
Within the next few days Hmmmm..... Vandals surly not those who were evicted decided to do a number on the place
And they didn't have the funds to fix or continue the payments
Not much later it was the big B for them
They got to stay in wonderland home
And the sisters both live close but avoid each other and run in different circles

Personally I don't blame the Gurus
Every lesson in life comes at a cost one way or another



Account Closed

May 04 '13, 06:18 PM


Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
Originally posted by Eric Michaels:
Originally posted by Antonio Bodley:
I see at least two things a guru need to make lots of money. 1) They need marketing strategy aimed at investors who want to make lots of money in real estate with less time and effort to make that happen. 2) They need to create something that will eliminate all the work an investor would normally do themselves.

The above quote is where you are incorrect. They only need #1. #2 is completely unnecessary.

I have to agree with Eric, with a minor tweak. The #2 that they need is to CONvince a number of (unsuspecting) people (let's call them suckers) that they (gurus) have created something wonderful that they (suckers) just can't do without. Those suckers are the ones who will send money the guru's way.

The guru's product does not have to meet the purchaser's expectations first ...

Very blunt, but very true. They are suckers.



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