Is this a sound rental investment with 35% required down?

Is this a sound rental investment with 35% required down?

Member since 2022 · 12 posts · 9 votes

Hi all,

I sure would appreciate any advice and insight concerning my situation. I'm new to the world of real estate investment and learning as much as I can before I purchase. I currently live in Phoenix Arizona and have a primary home with a 30 year conventional loan and 200K cash savings to put towards a rental investment property. My credit score is 815, the only debt I have is my home but my debt to income ratio is high and per my lender I will need to put at least 35% down on a property to qualify (lender is suggesting 7 year arm.)  But doesn't that seem high?? I've known some investors with awful credit only putting down 20%.  What am I missing? I've worked with this lender on previous primary homes and they know I'm a good customer.  Is it because it's for an investment property?  

My goal is to find a property that's turnkey ready and has new big ticket items such as roof and ac. I found a single family 4/2 property (no hoa) in a good rental market area (rents run 2200-2600) that's fully remodeled with new roof and ac at $495k. The comps are running 475-505k but the phoenix market is still overinflated. If I were to purchase this property, I would need to put down $173,250 plus 10K estimated closing = $183,250 (leaving me $16,750 in cash reserves for both homes and unexpected expenses.) My estimated mortgage would be $2152 (P&I, taxes & insurance included) and rents need to be $2440 per lender. So question 1. How much cash reserve on average is best/wise to have on hand for both homes? In my mind, $16,750 seems tight, but it's hard to know what's realistic from an investor perspective. Question 2. If cash flow is break even or possibly $200 each month, is such an investment sound especially having to put 35% down? Many have said if it doesn't make the 1% rule then it's best to walk away. Thoughts? Thank you!

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Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y

35% DP is a bad investment.  Find a different lender.  Your goal should be to put as little down as possible.  The DP is what your property costs you.  The rest is paid for by our tenant, as long as you have positive CF...and you must have positive CF.  Also, if you have to pay a higher DP to get a higher CF you're not really getting positive CF.  All you'd be doing is paying for all that negative CF upfront.

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  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y

    35% DP is a bad investment.  Find a different lender.  Your goal should be to put as little down as possible.  The DP is what your property costs you.  The rest is paid for by our tenant, as long as you have positive CF...and you must have positive CF.  Also, if you have to pay a higher DP to get a higher CF you're not really getting positive CF.  All you'd be doing is paying for all that negative CF upfront.

  • Grant SchroederPro Member
    Lender · OR ID AZ CA WA CO NV TN MT · Member since 2018 · 599 posts · 312 votes
    4y

    @Cami Gerbmak 35% down required is definitely A bad investment! Academy Mortgage can go 10% down and no MI on 1-4 unit investment properties since we portfolio the loan on our own books.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y

    @Cami Gerbmak

    Do they want 35% down to lower your monthly payment because of your income / DTI?

    If that’s the case find a cheaper home

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Lender · Nationwide · Member since 2021 · 220 posts · 105 votes
    4y

    I wanted to reverse engineer this a bit, granted I don’t have tax or insurance numbers. But if you’re using income of the property to underwrite this deal, cash flow is the limiting factor. Otherwise, they are looking at the cash flow as the limiting factor and are mitigating risk. Shopping around wouldn’t hurt though to compare options. 

  • Lender · Nationwide · Member since 2021 · 220 posts · 105 votes
    4y

    I wanted to reverse engineer this a bit, granted I don’t have tax or insurance numbers. But if you’re using income of the property to underwrite this deal, cash flow is the limiting factor. Otherwise, they are looking at the cash flow as the limiting factor and are mitigating risk. Shopping around wouldn’t hurt though to compare options. 

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Cami Gerbmak:

    Shop around. I pay 20 - 25% down.


    The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews
  • Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes
    4y

    What type of loan? Straight investor mortgage? Second / vacation home loan? DSCR? The math and the logic on each is different. Higher downpayment to help with your DTI? Increase cash flow on the investment property because it doesn't with the 20% and your DTI is too high to subsidize that loss? Get to the bottom of this with your current lender and/or shop for a new one

  • Member since 2022 · 12 posts · 9 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Joe Villeneuve:

    35% DP is a bad investment.  Find a different lender.  Your goal should be to put as little down as possible.  The DP is what your property costs you.  The rest is paid for by our tenant, as long as you have positive CF...and you must have positive CF.  Also, if you have to pay a higher DP to get a higher CF you're not really getting positive CF.  All you'd be doing is paying for all that negative CF upfront.


     Really appreciate your insight and I agree Joe...thanks so much for taking the time to reply!

  • Member since 2022 · 12 posts · 9 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    @Cami Gerbmak

    Do they want 35% down to lower your monthly payment because of your income / DTI?

    If that’s the case find a cheaper home

    Thanks so much Chris for taking the time to reply!  Yes for lower monthly payment and being able to get the rents the lender requires for approval.  With more inventory, I am starting to search for lower priced properties and hopefully can find something or I may need to look out of state.  
  • Member since 2022 · 12 posts · 9 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Sergey A. Petrov:

    What type of loan? Straight investor mortgage? Second / vacation home loan? DSCR? The math and the logic on each is different. Higher downpayment to help with your DTI? Increase cash flow on the investment property because it doesn't with the 20% and your DTI is too high to subsidize that loss? Get to the bottom of this with your current lender and/or shop for a new one


    Hi Sergey,

    It's for a straight investor mortgage and per my lender I need a higher downpayment to help with my DTI and be able to get the rents the lender requires for approval. 35% down is just too much of a risk and leaves me short on cash reserves. In my mind, I need to supplement my income or find a higher paying job. I've talked with several other lenders and all have said the same - my DTI is just too high and requires a higher DP to qualify. The only debt I have is my primary home as I pay any credit card debt monthly. I'm not sure what else to do other than look for much lower priced properties that make sense as rentals or look out of state. I have an investor friend in the muscle shoals, Florence AL area that's still undervalued, but a lot of investors are discovering this place.

  • Member since 2022 · 12 posts · 9 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:
    Quote from @Cami Gerbmak:

    Shop around. I pay 20 - 25% down.

    Would that apply to me with a high DTI?  

  • Member since 2022 · 12 posts · 9 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Grant Schroeder:

    @Cami Gerbmak 35% down required is definitely A bad investment! Academy Mortgage can go 10% down and no MI on 1-4 unit investment properties since we portfolio the loan on our own books.


     Many thanks for your reply Grant.  And I agree as the others have posted that 35% down is a bad investment especially if it leaves me with limited reserves.  Would appreciate more information about what you shared.  Thank you!

  • Member since 2022 · 12 posts · 9 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kevin Woodard:

    I wanted to reverse engineer this a bit, granted I don’t have tax or insurance numbers. But if you’re using income of the property to underwrite this deal, cash flow is the limiting factor. Otherwise, they are looking at the cash flow as the limiting factor and are mitigating risk. Shopping around wouldn’t hurt though to compare options. 


     Thank you Kevin for your insight and currently am exploring other lenders and options.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y

    If the only debt you have is your current home and you've got $200K in savings, you are in a good position, but you mention your debt to income ratio is high.  So while your home is your only debt, your lender can only lend you so much based on your income.  I'm guessing the total amount of debt is what is going to limit what you can buy.  They may be suggesting 35% down because that is all you can borrow.

    For example, you can afford to borrow $500K according to the bank.  for your current home, you've borrowed $400K, meaning you can borrow another $100K.  If properties in the area cost $135K plus, you have to make up the rest with your down payment (yes I know $35K is not 35% of $135K).

    Don't pay attention to 'rules' like the 1% rule.  Run the actual numbers.

  • Member since 2022 · 20 posts · 22 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Grant Schroeder:

    @Cami Gerbmak 35% down required is definitely A bad investment! Academy Mortgage can go 10% down and no MI on 1-4 unit investment properties since we portfolio the loan on our own books.


     Hello, Do you have a link on your webpage with more information about this "10% no MI" option? 

  • Grant SchroederPro Member
    Lender · OR ID AZ CA WA CO NV TN MT · Member since 2018 · 599 posts · 312 votes
    4y

    @Jackie Mann would you mind sending me a message with the best email address for you? I will send you a pdf and breakdown of our Academy Investor loan via email. Thank you!

  • Member since 2022 · 20 posts · 22 votes
    4y

    Sure!

  • Lender · Austin Texas · Member since 2022 · 319 posts · 156 votes
    4y

    Any lender should be able to get this done as an investment in an LLC at 20% - especially with your FICO

  • Real Estate Agent · Burbank, CA · Member since 2021 · 38 posts · 26 votes
    4y

    Something feels off with your numbers...you said:

    My estimated mortgage would be $2152 (P&I, taxes & insurance included) and rents need to be $2440 per lender....If cash flow is break even or possibly $200 each month

    Assuming you allocate 10% to R&M and future capital expenses (put them aside each month, maybe automatically transfer to a separate bank account, your future self will thank you) that's another $244 a month in expenses. I don't see how you'll be cash flowing $200 a month on this one.

    And if you're not happy with the financing, shop around until you are!

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