Should you spend money on the so called Guru's.

Starting Out
12yFollow

Should you spend money on the so called Guru's.

Patrick Henderson
Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 68 posts · 33 votes

Just to be up front. I personally have spent 40 to $50,000 on training and about ten percent was of no use, That being said, my first seminar cost me just under $500 and within two weeks I had my first deal. I used hard money at 18% and made $24,000. Don't get me wrong it was a difficult rehab with many issues. Including a supposed experienced investor I took on as a partner who caught it on fire twice. Enough said.

First there is so much information for free or almost nothing that you should take advantage of first. I could reccomend some that are in my veiw very legitimate. I won't because I don't believe BP wants that on this site.

I will say this, I have made way more than I ever spent in this business on training.

I don't care for the bashing of so called Guru's on this site but I understand. On that subject though, I will say that I have heard many people bash some of the most credable people that have helped me tremedously. Not necessarily on this site mind you.

There are reputable teachers in this business.

0Reply
183 views

Most Popular Reply

Brian L.
Wholesaler · Westminster, CO · Member since 2014 · 309 posts · 104 votes
12y

There are reputable teachers and I'm not sure that I've seen that statement disputed. BP actually has as many or more teachers than students in my opinion. Not all of the people whom I believe to be teachers are advertising themselves as such though.

Anyway, about the "Gurus". I think there are a few common complaints: people pay money to be taught that they can invest with no money; despite the fact that this statement is highly misleading, if you're at the seminar, you've already spent money. Also, I can always tell when there has been a seminar in my city because the street corners are littered with new bandit signs, CL is cluttered with new ads, and my inbox is full of emails from people trying to sell me properties that they don't have. I think it's great that people are getting motivated to get started but they're being told or they perceive that they're being told to mislead people. I could find probably 20 examples from the past 5 days on BP where new people sign up and their first post says "cash buyers wanted, huge inventory, act fast" or whatever. I reach out to some of these people to learn from them about how they acquired their huge inventory only to find out that they don't have a single property under contract; for many of them this has been their first attempt at advertising or marketing of any kind.

I don't lump all new investors (I am one myself) or all gurus together but I can definitely tell which new investors have just attended a guru seminar.

8Reply
See this reply in the discussion

47 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Brian L.
    Wholesaler · Westminster, CO · Member since 2014 · 309 posts · 104 votes
    12y

    There are reputable teachers and I'm not sure that I've seen that statement disputed. BP actually has as many or more teachers than students in my opinion. Not all of the people whom I believe to be teachers are advertising themselves as such though.

    Anyway, about the "Gurus". I think there are a few common complaints: people pay money to be taught that they can invest with no money; despite the fact that this statement is highly misleading, if you're at the seminar, you've already spent money. Also, I can always tell when there has been a seminar in my city because the street corners are littered with new bandit signs, CL is cluttered with new ads, and my inbox is full of emails from people trying to sell me properties that they don't have. I think it's great that people are getting motivated to get started but they're being told or they perceive that they're being told to mislead people. I could find probably 20 examples from the past 5 days on BP where new people sign up and their first post says "cash buyers wanted, huge inventory, act fast" or whatever. I reach out to some of these people to learn from them about how they acquired their huge inventory only to find out that they don't have a single property under contract; for many of them this has been their first attempt at advertising or marketing of any kind.

    I don't lump all new investors (I am one myself) or all gurus together but I can definitely tell which new investors have just attended a guru seminar.

    8Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Good or you, glad it worked for you.

    You are probably an intelligent person, business minded with great a skill set that lends very well to real estate. You have good communication skills and you obviously had earned money to be in a position to pay thousands for your guru instruction. One might even say you were successful before you even started RE. That is rare, but you seems you were pleased.

    You also probably took your courses before fully realizing that had you spent a few hundred dollars and attended a real estate school for agents in your area you would have learned your state laws, what was customary in your area, how to value properties, the RE law side as to easements, encumbrances, deeds, different liens, etc. that are the basis for any and all RE transaction known to mankind.

    Then, armed with that knowledge you would know enough about RE to dive in here to BP and look at the strategies,

    As sharp as you are, you could have asked specific questions pertaining to any facet of small RE investing, in fact you could have gotten into aspects of notes as well, and had any question you had answered by many who had more knowledge than any fast talking instructor you ever had.

    So, had you been more aware at the time you could have received a greater insight to any and all aspects of investing for just the cost of that RE school.

    As to the bus tours, you probably have an REI group near you, might have gone with a small group to open hoses and devised much the same show and tell session for the cost of gas.

    From that group, and by now having a good grasp of RE basics and the proper way to accomplish any strategy you could have selected a partner who had local knowledge. They usually don't start fires that I know of.

    In fact, chances are good that you would have had a greater technical background than your local investor and while he has local knowledge, when it got to valuations, contracting and getting to closing you could have not only had a learning experience but also employed what you knew to ensure you were acting legally and ethically.

    Past that, you would have moved on and specialized in your niche with the support of members here on BP, by partnering and staying in touch with those you trusted.

    As to support, well, BP is on 24/7/7, most sleep between 3 to 5 AM my time, but you never know someone with expertise is usually around. Contacting people is usually never a problem during business hours and into the evening when you might need a quick opinion or guidance.

    If there were education dollars burning a whole in your pocket, there are legit and accredited courses applicable to what you would have already learned offered at local colleges or university. Planning and development is usually a good class for investors, so is finance, accounting and business law, even a speech class helps many with delivering offers. If you need motivational seminars are also available.

    You could have earned the same that you have already, I'd suggest more, I'm living proof, and advanced beyond the guru strategy stuff.

    But, as it is, while you can make money using the step by step guru teaching methods, you may not have a really good RE education still. The real test is if can approach any property under any circumstance whatsoever, in any market and still profit from such a property or circumstance, gurus certainly don't teach that! You could have bought a couple decent properties with what your "education" cost you, but good luck. :)

    8Reply
  • Patrick Henderson
    OP
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 68 posts · 33 votes
    12y

    Thank you both for posting here. First, yes I was fairly successful in another industry already and I have had an entrepreneurial mindset since I was very young. Good business savvy is a good place to start. To at the very least get a mindset. The book Rich Dad Poor dad is a very good place to start that mindset. I highly recommend that book for those wanting a better understanding of that mindset. As far as going to Real Estate school to get License, I can tell you from my experience since that time I learned more in that weekend than with the RE licensing school. And, that's a fact.

    Basic RE licensing schools do not teach the business of RE investing. What they teach is somewhat a mystery to me besides listing. comping and three ways to sell. Conventional, VA and cash. Not to be condescending but almost always the agent is the least informed in the transactions, at least with residential. I have literally sat and listened to agents talk their way out of a pay check even when the seller was satisfied with the offer. When I got started in this business in 2004 average agents could not even describe a short sale accurately. Much less the realities and difficulties involved in the entire process.

    As far as college courses, Business 101 is a good start. But I don't think I would have learned this business through the courses offered at that time. It's been my experience that colleges fill you with good info, structure of business and management, but not necessarily strategies.

    Keep in mind that I read text better than most I know read the funny pages. I am a serial reader, constantly learning. I am self taught in most everything I do , from business to mountain climbing. But that does not mean I have not stood on the shoulders of those that came before me.

    1Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    I'm really not one to argue as most everyone here will never attest to, but saying there was any weekend seminar that taught more of the basics of RE that an RE school is totally unbelievable, impossible, not enough hours in the day. I know, some people fall asleep in classes.

    An example, does any guru book teach aspects of surveying? Can you sit down and write legal descriptions to subdivide new lots from a meets and bounds plated parcel? Think that won't make money, it put me ahead $250K just by knowing I could when I contracted the purchase.

    Or, I could talk about the old farm still operating from the mid 1800s in town that Realtors, developers and investors tried to get their hands on since before I was born, but it was my financial approach in meshing the owners wishes in an estate plan and knowing survey aspects along with various types of interests that could be conveyed that landed the $850K deal, oh with over 100% financing as the seller agreed to kick in on the project. Tell me that's in some guru book.:) It comes from a real education, developing and designing deals rather than painting by numbers.

    So, yes understanding and employing the basics that are taught in RE schools and accredited classes do make you money, lots of money, more than anyone I've ever heard of starting off with guru courses. Really, am I to believe that investors in shopping centers or entire subdivisions got their education from RDPD? Joking I'm sure. It's the difference between real estate operators yanking a deal on a house and real estate investors that are really in business, big education gap there.

    I see you have 25 posts now, kinda new here, there are over 200 pages with threads on RDPD with thousands of posts painting a different picture than you're painting. Most are not satisfied but in fairness, I understand it has good hype and motivational fantasy.

    Since I taught real estate classes, finance, economics and accounting at the undergraduate level so you might say I know what I'm talking about in education. An education doesn't teach you how to make money it gives you the tools to make money, more than those without the same education.

    All strategies are anchored in basic concepts. I like to explain the new master lease option strategy pumped by gurus and promoters as being as old as the feudal system 700 years ago. Again, nothing is new in real estate. Someone probably wholesaled a cave to clean out for a club and then traded the place to tribe for 2 clubs, a spear and some skins. We know that this is nothing more than the old straw man deal, it's been around a long time.

    You're right, RE school doesn't teach lease options, or installment contracts or fix and flips, but knowing the types of interests that can be conveyed, construction aspects, liens, financing, and other basics these strategies are not much more than a mention and a light should go off in an investor's mind that says, I see that, how that transaction works and what it does. The marketing side is picked up here on BP. We discuss strategies here, how to do them, present them, how to fix a mess, how to get them closed, it's not rocket science. That's where BP and experienced investors come in to explain which tool to use and why.

    BTW, we also require that anyone who has any business interest in any guru stuff to disclose that relationship. Even the under the radar soft sell approaches.

    If I were you and spent that kind of money, I'd defend my position too, it's tough to admit spending that kind of money and making a mistake, so justify it any way you like, that's expected and okay. All that matters is that you're satisfied, but don't expect to convince others it's the best way to go. Just once I'd like for a guru to tell me something significant as a strategy that I wasn't aware of, just once. There are no secrets in RE. Good luck. :)

    I'll say too that there are some decent, good, sharp mentor/coaches out there, we have a few here, I doubt they charge tens of thousands.

    Calling guru stuff an education is rather absurd, they have good marketing angles and canned presentations, but so do insurance companies for field agents, not really an education. An enlightenment perhaps, an expensive one at that. :)

    5Reply
  • Brian Gibbons
    Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    I think every real estate investor should have the Kaplan Books on being an Agent and a Broker in their state. I do.

    Link

    http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-author=Kaplan%20Real%20Estate%20Education&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AKaplan%20Real%20Estate%20Education

    1Reply
  • Patrick Henderson
    OP
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 68 posts · 33 votes
    12y

    Wow, There's no need to be so aggressive. I'll write a reply to this and then I'm done with it. Unless, it turns into something more constructive. By that I mean, it does something to help someone complete an actual transaction.

    First I am not affiliated with any one selling educational material. Nor do I represent any. Just want to be clear on that subject. However, I did mention Robert Kiyosaki's book, If that is prohibited I'm apologize for that. I do believe it helps many people understand the mindset of an investor. And, I did mention that everyone should "first" take advantage of the free info ie BP.

    Bill. I don't think any approach is the best. And, I'm not disrespecting your education. I think all education is good, sometimes even the stuff that's not so good. Learning should never stop. And, You didn't learn all that from the licensing requirements classes which was my comparison analogy. Your time in the business, EXPERIENCE and education has gotten you to the point that you are today. You seem well versed in putting deals together and I Respect that acumen. Hell, I might want to do a deal with you. BP is a great tool for everyone. I didn't have that when I started, I wish I had.

    Here's an analogy. I took my CPA to a commercial seminar (BTW it was free) nothing was sold at all. He had been a slum landlord as he called it and gotten out, leaving a bad taste in his mouth and quit after that. after the seminar he was inspired to get back in and bought raw land southeast of Phx. took an educated guess and made a whole lot of money. Yes he understood investing and business. I'm not saying anyone who goes to a seminar is going to make lots of money but there plenty of good educators out there and shams as well.

    One more analogy;

    You know it's a true statement that I could teach someone about all the tools in the world but they are useless unless used in the proper way.

    You mentioned a whole lot. So I'm trying, be patient.

    Surveying. lease options, installments, and so on.Yes. All of that is taught, by what you may call a Guru. BTW the best ones I know, don't go by that name.

    Do I know quite a bit about everyone of those things you mentioned, yes I do. Is that a good thing? Absolutely, it helps me look at everything thing that comes across my desk more creatively and makes the possibility if a deal much more likely. Making every deal work is the only impossible. Were dealing with humans here.

    But when I need surveying, finance, accounting, Engineers, Attorneys or whatever. I hire those professionals. Why? Because as a creative investor my job as I see it, is to get transactions accomplished. I guess you've read my post. Do you have any (constructive) arguments with the few strategies I've mentioned on this site. I'm willing to bet you've used them. they are very basic. I did not leaned them in a college, traditional schooling but that does change the fact that they work.

    I've tried to answer your objections politely and hope I've succeeded.

    I welcome a good debate but not an antagonistic one. So unless we have that as as the only priory, I'm done with this conversation.

    Thank you for posting

    Ps. How much did you spend on your education? The one thing I was trying to say is quit bashing what you obviously only know superficially. That's what I'm defending.

    0Reply
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    Hey Patrick,

    Bill sometimes goes a little too far to the extreme, so forgive him for that. Let me try to clarify the point he was trying to make...

    Real estate is a business -- no different than running a restaurant, starting a software company or opening a car dealership. I don't imagine anyone would jump into those types of businesses after just a couple day seminar and no additional experience/training; if they did, they'd be unlikely to succeed.

    Real estate is similar -- to be a great investor, it helps to have a firm understanding of some of the more complex business and finance concepts. And it's very difficult to learn these underlying business and finance topics in a day or two of training. In fact, many of them require one or multiple semesters in a higher education course to truly grasp the subjects.

    This isn't to say that you can't learn the basics in a couple days, or even learn some tips and tricks to help you get some deals done. For example, I could probably teach you three or four ways to structure a note deal to help you buy or sell some notes effectively. But, with a thorough understanding of notes as an instrument -- including the legal, finance and math concepts behind them -- you could figure out hundreds of effective ways to structure notes.

    What is more valuable long-term -- three or four ways? Or hundreds of ways?

    I think Bill's point is that if you want to be in this business long-term, having that deep understanding of these types of topics will allow you a better chance of long-term success. It may not be absolutely necessary, but it's certainly a head start. There are plenty of business people who just "wing it" and do just fine, but they tend to struggle more than those who have the formal education behind them.

    I don't mean to put words into Bill's mouth, but that's my take...and I agree with him...

    Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)
    4Reply
  • Patrick Henderson
    OP
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 68 posts · 33 votes
    12y

    I would agree with everything you mentioned. I do believe there is good info out there other than traditional methods though. He has no idea how much I learned at those classes. Did I learn everything I know at that one two day event. Absolutely not, But, with what I did learn, I simply applied basic business principals and was able to achieve the desired results. So, the basic premise of my post was alternative sources of education are there and viable and should not be bashed simply for being an alternative. Anyone looking to stay in any business should keep learning constantly. Did I have a tougher time with my RE business than someone who went through college for those courses he mentioned, maybe I don't know. And, he's right on, I did have success in other business ventures before moving into Real Estate. Two companies in the service industry, one in logistics at that time. I know for a fact that helped me tremendously. That's why I mentioned the free advise first, like on this site.

    No I'm not agree , I love his passion, because I believe he does not want steer someone in the wrong direction or for that matter let someone else do it on this site. I have read some of his posts and in particular respect his recent distinction between Private lenders and Hard money lenders. That is a prevalent practice in that deception right now. But this business, especially regarding SFR is fairly simple at least to me. Again, I am serial learner. I simply cannot stop learning and again, I have always been entrepreneurial in my mindset. which is why I mentioned Robert kiyosaki's book for help acquiring that mindset.

    0Reply
  • Chris K.Pro Member
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
    12y

    Yes, No and Maybe so. This question depends entirely on each individual. I'm in no way against spending money on learning and will probably do so in the future but growing up in the generation of the internet I'm used to being able to find information for free. I'd find it very hard to believe that a "guru" has knowledge that nobody else already has or is doing things nobody else has ever done, they had to learn it from somewhere after all.

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley

    Now Bill,,,, Meets and Bounds descriptions you must have had a background in Surveying. I can do Section 1/4 Sec. 1/8 section and get down t 5 and 2.5 acres parcels you read the legal descriptions backwards. But meets and bounds is a legal description that you need to be on the ground and Go from point to point at a bearing and degree to a known point and or in many of those old ones it calls out a distance and bearing to a crook in a tree that no longer exists.... The Investors on this site that may want to subdivide land I am sure will just higher a survey for a few thousands dollars to do this for them . To make the leap that because you could do your own Meets and Bounds description and it made you 250k is a stretch.. Not only that you can't record it without a licensed surveyor signing and putting his stamp on it. Or maybe you can in your state but not on the west coast. You can in certain places do easy platting's by doing deed descriptions but those are generally done with Township Section and Range descriptions as noted above.

    I think this gentlemen feels he got his moneys worth and 50k is a drop in the bucket vis a vi a lifetime of RE investing and making money.. Its two maybe 4 deals over a career so I still don't get why folks think this is such a rip off for those that have taken the advice and education and succeeded.

    Podcast Guest on Show #222
    JLH Capital Partners51 Review
    WebsiteView Page
    0Reply
  • Patrick Henderson
    OP
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 68 posts · 33 votes
    12y

    No argument on you points Chris. The old saying? There is nothing new on this earth.

    I agree it does depend on the person, very much so. But that's the same with anything that has to do with human nature.

    I never said they are doing any thing new. And, that's actually beside the point I'm trying make.

    Analogy;

    I grew up in my father's business, I learned a trade. I became very good and very efficient at it and had trained others to do it as well. One day I was training a guy that I new had no aptitude for the trade. But, and this is a big but, he did something so simple, so practical on that job. And with all my knowledgeable experience, the hundreds of applications, techniques and parts. I had learned something that day. That all my vast experience could or maybe would not see from someone who knew nothing about what they doing. "Form the mouths of babes and fools" I'll never forget that moment it was amazing

    Had I gone to college to learn the strategies of RE investing. I believe I would have been told, I wasn't ready for that yet, you need take these classes to learn this before you can understand that. Certainly that's true if you expect to grow a business. But there is nothing like getting your feet wet to know how water feels.

    You will never know everything about anything. But you must get started. Hopefully one would not be swayed by the rah rah herd mentality I personally witnessed at some of these seminars I attended. But again that's human nature, people hear what they want to hear.

    This is the point, you never know where good and even great breakthroughs will come in your ongoing search to grow and learn. I have gotten or interpreted so many little tid-bits that added up in the end to much bigger things. that I don't question where that knowledge came from as long it is relevant.

    I hope that helps clarify my point.

    thanks for posting

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    @Patrick Henderson I do apologize for my wording, I was over the top a tad from my excitement I suppose. I'll agree with you on several aspects and from you last post its given a greater insight to your situation and position, I'll come back to some of those points.

    @J Scott very well said, however the "basics" I refer to can't really be learned, committed to memory and clearly understood in 2 or 3 days. RE schools here are 8 hours a day for about 12 days. I also agree with Patrick's underlying assessment that everything taught in these classes are not really necessary, some topics can be skimmed over.

    I have decided, seriously, to provide something in the way of materials on the basics I keep referring to. I've preached getting the "basics" for, probably, a couple years at least. I've generally said go to an RE school locally and take the class, I have also said you don't have to take the test and become a Realtor. I'll still stick by this. The class I took was with an old timer who invested himself in multi family and we did get off the path in class in areas of investing and marketing, approaching buyers/sellers and some creative methods (L/O, first right of refusal, forcing appreciation, etc). Perhaps that class was not the norm. We have a member here Ron (sorry last name slips me) but he has a school for agents and I'd bet he gets off into investing topics). I'd think that if beginning investors would ask a few agents what was the best school in their area they would say and tell them about class interaction with the instructor.

    Anyway, I seriously doubt that any investor will need to convert links and chains to meters or feet (links and chains being an old survey measurement). I doubt too that an investor needs to know how many members there are on the state board of real estate commissioners, or who appoints them or know which broker is responsible for settlement. There would be about 4 days of stuff an investor would never really use.

    Instead of me preaching get the basics perhaps the basics should be described so beginners wouldn't be lost in trying to find such topics, and no, it's not the basics of investing found here. My fault for not being more specific long ago.

    @Jay Hinrichs no stretch at all! Took 4 years to clear up all the issues and spin off separate homes along a river in a highly sought area just outside of town. Prior survey knowledge? You made me think about that. I was an air traffic controller in the Army, bearings, azimuth and back azimuths are basic, same with pilots (I believe like yourself) even those who become disoriented (lost) LOL. I also had reviewed tons of legal descriptions to ensure they closed as due diligence in filing deeds. No, I never walked a property to do a survey. It was the only time I had to know there are 43,560 sq. ft. in an acre, something drilled in at RE class for a few test questions. An odd situation but one owner had 6 homes, a barn a tennis court and additional land all on one parcel. I divided them in strips from the river (an interesting learning experience where I spoke to a survey engineer friend of mine, as to the "center of the river" bearing). I sold 3 properties that paid my purchase and sold the others at profit on the rest, profits in 4 sales = 250! I've written about the deal a few times here on BP.

    Granted, I had experiences that led to this, however without my education I would never have been in a position to have had those experiences! So, it does boil down to education. What was learned in the RE class certainly contributed to knowing what to do with that property.

    I suppose I feel very strongly about a real education in the meat rather than how to cook it because I never would have been a chief without it, it just would not have happened. And I remember my days chasing deals as a buy and hold guy before I completed by education, so, I know the difference.

    The main reason I'm so down on gurus is due to the price they charge for what they sell and the ethical issues they just smear with bad information, well, then there is the hype too.

    Patrick, you don't know what you don't know, no one does, it's impossible to get even the basic aspects of RE in any seminar, boot camp or bus tour. It takes effort and time but it's not difficult and it's well worth it. The facts are that the most successful RE operators and investors will be those with a formal education, they didn't get there following gurus strategies without drilling deeper in law, finance and RE. No one needs an MBA or even a degree, but everyone needs more than guru stuff, in fact, they don't need guru stuff at all, I'd say I'm proof of that. :)

    0Reply
  • Randy King
    Investor · Madison, AL · Member since 2013 · 93 posts · 28 votes
    12y

    Sorry up front for this, I just had to respond.

    It's a good think Steve Jobs, Woz, Bill Gates, Larry Page, Sergey Brin and Mark Zuckerberg did not know what they did not know. Sometimes you just have to jump in and learn as you go. Whether you get your inspiration from the Gurus, BP or elsewhere, as Nike sez "Just Do It"!

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Chris K.:
    Yes, No and Maybe so. This question depends entirely on each individual. I'm in no way against spending money on learning and will probably do so in the future but growing up in the generation of the internet I'm used to being able to find information for free. I'd find it very hard to believe that a "guru" has knowledge that nobody else already has or is doing things nobody else has ever done, they had to learn it from somewhere after all.

    Exactly! But, you need to know what to google, need to know if it applies in your area and state, if it really applies to that situation.

    Big issue with newbies (I'm guilty of the same thing long ago) is they want to do something different, get creative to make something easier or to market. Lacking the underlying issues and consequences is what gets folks in trouble or causes failure. There is nothing new in RE (except laws and regs). You're right, gurus had to learn too, you can add spin to any basic transaction and make a product out of it, promoted as new, but if you really understand things you can then use your imagination, your creative talents and do the same thing without spending thousands.....you'll also know if what you're doing is ethical, legal and acceptable in your area. :)

    Edited as I saw Eddie's comment. True, this discussion has been had here many times. Successful people: You're talking about many different factors and the .01% who got it without going there formally (they did learn) and the 80% who do much better taking the traditional path. Which do you want to bet on with your future? :)

    0Reply
  • Darrell Shepherd
    Rehabber · Smyrna, GA · Member since 2013 · 864 posts · 510 votes
    12y
    I didnt read all the responses here, but thought I'd chime in. I spent a lot more than $40-$50k on seminars when I was learning. Paid for out of deals, though, not running up credit cards. Not all of that was RE training, some was bookkeeping, entity structuring, Anthony Robbins, etc. Not sure I'd do it exactly that way now, I was learning 14 years ago so not nearly as much was available for free online. In hindsight, the best thing I got out of training was being around people doing deals, especially ones that were as new as I was. They left a lot of stuff out, to be sure, but I still know more than 95% of the investors I talk to and a lot of that is all the training I did. My brother has a $100k+ English degree from an Ivy League school and has never used it (he's an actor). I got a better ROI on my $100k by far, but somehow his rather useless education is revered and people think I'm crazy for spending that much on seminars. You gotta learn somewhere. I don't know I'd have taken the first steps or pushed as hard without my peer group. Again, not saying that's the way to go for everyone, and like J.Scott said, I quit a 6 figure job to start my RE business and my degree is in finance, so took to some of it better than some would. There are many, many who spend that money and never get going so waste that coin. In any event, I steer newbies I talk to here and to books, mainly because most of them are broke. I would not recommend going into debt to buy a seminar (or anything else for that matter), but sometimes that expense buys motivation, which has real value IMO. Personally I'd still pony up $2k for a seminar if it interested me. Most of the stuff I take these days is tax strategy and asset protection more than how to buy and sell, but I still do some classes here and there and they aren't cheap.
    2Reply
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Randy King:
    It's a good think Steve Jobs, Woz, Bill Gates, Larry Page, Sergey Brin and Mark Zuckerberg did not know what they did not know. Sometimes you just have to jump in and learn as you go. Whether you get your inspiration from the Gurus, BP or elsewhere, as Nike sez "Just Do It"!

    I went to college and graduated with Sergei Brin, and both he and Larry Page went to Stanford for grad school, one of the best schools in the country. Google started as a class project. Mark Zuckerberg studied at Harvard, and started Facebook there with several Harvard CompSci guys. Steve Wozniak was building computers from the time he was 6 years old, before you could buy them. Steve Jobs was a prodigy and probably one of the greatest motivators/innovators of our time.

    To compare the experience, skills and innate abilities these guys had when they started their companies to someone taking a couple day real estate seminar and just jumping into the business is ludicrous.

    But, for the sake of argument, let's just suppose that none of these guys had any formal education or experience and still went on become as successful as they did...for every one of those types of people (success without formal education), how many unsuccessful people are out there who tried and failed? Likely thousands...or even tens of thousands.

    When someone says, "I spent $50K on a seminar and it jump-started my career," my reaction is, "That's awesome...that was $50K well spent!" But, keep in mind that probably 90% of the people that took that same seminar didn't go on to succeed. My personal belief is that the guy who did succeed would have done so without the $50K seminar and the other 90% wouldn't have succeeded even with a million dollars in seminars.

    In my opinion, the best combination is someone with the skills, drive and intellect combined with a strong formal education. But, if you have one or the other, there's a reasonable chance you'll do okay. Without either, you're probably out of luck.

    Finally, let me reiterate that I'm a fan of paid education (I spent nearly $50K on my formal education)...but not all education is created equally. I'm not saying real estate coaches aren't worth the price (some most certainly are), but I'm guessing the majority are a waste of time/money. Do your due diligence, and don't assume a big price tag equals a good education.

    If you really want to spend money on real estate training, spend it on someone who is actually doing deals in your market and who will hold your hand step-by-step and teach you not only the "tricks of the trade," but the basics as well.

    Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)
    2Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley

    Now Bill,,,, Meets and Bounds descriptions you must have had a background in Surveying. I can do Section 1/4 Sec. 1/8 section and get down t 5 and 2.5 acres parcels you read the legal descriptions backwards. But meets and bounds is a legal description that you need to be on the ground and Go from point to point at a bearing and degree to a known point and or in many of those old ones it calls out a distance and bearing to a crook in a tree that no longer exists.... The Investors on this site that may want to subdivide land I am sure will just higher a survey for a few thousands dollars to do this for them . To make the leap that because you could do your own Meets and Bounds description and it made you 250k is a stretch.. Not only that you can't record it without a licensed surveyor signing and putting his stamp on it. Or maybe you can in your state but not on the west coast. You can in certain places do easy platting's by doing deed descriptions but those are generally done with Township Section and Range descriptions as noted above.

    I think this gentlemen feels he got his moneys worth and 50k is a drop in the bucket vis a vi a lifetime of RE investing and making money.. Its two maybe 4 deals over a career so I still don't get why folks think this is such a rip off for those that have taken the advice and education and succeeded.

    Podcast Guest on Show #222
    JLH Capital Partners51 Review
    WebsiteView Page
    0Reply
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    Btw, most people think I'm anti-"guru", and for the most part they are correct. But, I like to keep an open mind, and to prove this, I'll relate a good guru experience I recently had...

    I was invited to a 4-day networking/seminar thing last week put on by a popular real estate educator, and I went (regardless of how the real estate event was going to go, it was still a good vacation opportunity with a friend/partner of mine). And I actually found it very valuable, both from a short-term learning experience and a long-term relationship experience...

    Here were the good points and how this event was different than most of these events I've seen and heard about:

    - The educator who held the event is someone whose books I've read and who clearly had deep understanding of the industry and plenty of real-life experience (to this day, he is more active in real estate than any 5 people I personally know put together). So, he is truly active in the business and can speak from current experience.

    - Of the 200 people or so in the room, at least half had as much or more experience in real estate as my partner and I had. And many had much more experience. So, it was an opportunity to actually pick the brains of lots others who had gone where I had yet to go.

    - The bulk of the event was geared towards networking. So, there was plenty of time to meet others, figure out how we could help each other and trade real-world information.

    - There was relatively little selling, and what seller there was focused on more soft-pitches, not hard-pitches. The event was 4 days of 10-12 hours per day, and I felt like the total pitch portion of the session was under an hour. The only one-on-one pitch I got was 10 minutes from one of the coach's "strategists." My partner and I quickly made it clear that we weren't interested in buying anything at the time, and that was that. We weren't shunned or made to feel like we were no longer welcome (despite the fact that most of the other people there were already "students"). So, it wasn't an uncomfortable experience.

    - Part of the event actually focused on the negative aspects of the type of investing the "guru" teaches, especially given where we are in the market cycle (it's not necessarily the best time to be jumping into this type of investing in many parts of the country). So, it wasn't all "This is a chance of a lifetime!," and there was plenty of, "This opportunity will be around forever, and while now is a fine time, there are some risks." This balanced discussion was refreshing.

    Just these basic points above made the entire experience different than real estate event I've been to in the past (including REIA events, unfortunately). And while I don't image I'll ever be purchasing education from this particular guy (nothing against him -- his books are great and I've learned a ton from reading his stuff over the years), if someone I knew were to tell me that they were going to go to one of his seminars, I'd probably encourage it (assuming they had thought the decision through and weren't just desperately searching for a get-rich-quick scheme).

    If every "guru" were like this guy, and if every real estate event were like this one, I'd have a lot less negative stuff to say, and would probably be a big proponent of the national training. Unfortunately, in my experience, this type of "guru" and this type of event are the exception, not the rule.

    Which is too bad...

    Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)
    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley

    LOL every pilot has gotten lost pre GPS direct -> just follow the magenta line...when I was getting my instrument rating I would never fly the airplane that had the ADF in it.. Lest the examiner expect me to make an ADF approach. No need to know those unless your flying out of the US

    Podcast Guest on Show #222
    JLH Capital Partners51 Review
    WebsiteView Page
    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Darrell, if your brother is an actor, he uses his education everyday, had he tried to get into his profession by saying: "Howdy folks, I never been in acting before, I'd be sure to do it all pretty good" he wouldn't have been given the time of day, much less a chance.

    While I am sociable with anyone and I hire people appropriate for the job, I don't really hang around illiterate slow minded types, I can love'em, but they just don't stimulate me in social settings or in business as much as a better educated and informed person does. Birds of a feather flock together, it's human nature.

    RE is a social business, friends are important to have, networking is key, your social circle is the difference in dealing in 500K properties compared to 50K properties or if you ever get to deal in higher priced properties.

    Your ability to gain trust and respect will be anchored in your ability to communicate knowledge and expertise face to face at all socio-economic levels. The better your general education is the easier it will be to succeed.

    We've had these education vs guru discussion many times before. There are basically two groups, those that advocate guru instruction and those that lean toward a formal education. I've noticed those saying "we don't need no education" (I'd sing it for you, LOL) are those that don't have a degree, those in favor of education have obtained a degree. I think it really boils down to social aspects. The reason a degree from Harvard is worth so much more than from your state college isn't so much about the quality of instruction as it is the connections made and the social aspects by attending Harvard. Education is about the quality of life more than the nuts and bolts of the material learned.

    There are also exceptional people that can overcome the lack of these formal education aspects, an extrovert who is well spoken, polite, carries themselves in a professional manner, worldly, is well versed in their area of business can certainly exceed beyond the average degreed person, but they are exceptional too. The issue here is the "well versed in business" portion.

    Much of this is also overcome with maturity, judgment, social graces learned over time, if someone is say 50, they'll be in a different boat than someone who is 25. Experience kicks in, not just technical experience but just from walking this green earth. At an older age the benefits of starting over with an education diminishes. I decided not to go to law school in the past because at my age, I realized it was too late to really benefit. While I regret not going at a younger age I made the right decision for myself.

    All this from saying someone with a degree doesn't use it. They do use their degree in many ways everyday without realizing it. How they approach problems, situations, interact with others, the opinions they form, the results they come to are all based on learned experiences and knowledge regardless of their studies. Pretty much why employers favor the degreed person over another when two applicants are otherwise equal.

    If someone needs a kick in the tail to get moving, that's not an educational issue, it's a motivational issue, see a shrink or a guru if the teacher fails.

    Much like trying to explain to a cat owner the benefits of owning a dog, if they never owned a dog they really can't grasp the experience. If you go bird hunting you'll do better taking a dog than a cat. LOL :)

    As to motivation, here's one for you. I know Billy Long personally, he was an auctioneer and RE broker who grew up in a rural area. His education was high school and RE school, that's it. Billy is the true heavy set good ole boy wearing a cowboy hat who admits at the first opportunity that he doesn't know something about that but knows common sense. Today, Billy is in Congress, yes, the do nothing Congress. I'd say he's been very successful from his dirt roots to where he sits today and I'd say he's wealthier than I am too. A 12th grade education and RE School, how about that! There are unique and exceptional people. :)

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    @Bill Gulley
    LOL every pilot has gotten lost pre GPS direct -> just follow the magenta line...when I was getting my instrument rating I would never fly the airplane that had the ADF in it.. Lest the examiner expect me to make an ADF approach. No need to know those unless your flying out of the US

    Wait till your instruments go out. This will be a GCA, non-gyro ILS approach to runway one eight, pilot needs not to acknowledge further transmissions, turn left.......stop turn! LOL :)

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley

    Bill my plane has a parachute Cirrus sr -22 if I am no gyro in the crude its pull the chute time. call my insurance company to come and pick up their airplane...:)

    Podcast Guest on Show #222
    JLH Capital Partners51 Review
    WebsiteView Page
    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    @Bill Gulley

    Bill my plane has a parachute Cirrus sr -22 if I am no gyro in the crude its pull the chute time. call my insurance company to come and pick up their airplane...:)

    Naah, I got ya, traffic, 6 o'clock, 3 miles, 3,000, CH-47, your bearing, still want to jump? Pilot's discretion! LOL :)

    We better get back on topic.

    0Reply
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    LOL every pilot has gotten lost pre GPS direct -> just follow the magenta line...

    Sad to say that even with GPS, I once landed at the wrong airport... :-)

    Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)
    1Reply
  • Robert AdamsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Henderson, NV · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 373 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Patrick Henderson:
    Just to be up front. I personally have spent 40 to $50,000 on training and about ten percent was of no use, That being said, my first seminar cost me just under $500 and within two weeks I had my first deal. I used hard money at 18% and made $24,000. Don't get me wrong it was a difficult rehab with many issues. Including a supposed experienced investor I took on as a partner who caught it on fire twice. Enough said.

    First there is so much information for free or almost nothing that you should take advantage of first. I could reccomend some that are in my veiw very legitimate. I won't because I don't believe BP wants that on this site.

    I will say this, I have made way more than I ever spent in this business on training.

    I don't care for the bashing of so called Guru's on this site but I understand. On that subject though, I will say that I have heard many people bash some of the most credable people that have helped me tremedously. Not necessarily on this site mind you.

    There are reputable teachers in this business.

    $40,000 to $50,000 on training...holy smokes that's a lot of $$ for training.

    [email protected]702-349-9175
    The Adams Team at Rothwell Gornt Companies4.971 Reviews
    WebsiteView Page
    0Reply
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.
Log InJoin for Free