Don't let the cheerleaders drown out sound advice

Don't let the cheerleaders drown out sound advice

Stuart UdisPro Member
Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

One of the most common posts observed in the forums is "I just settled on my 3rd section 8 rental and have a goal of reaching XYZ doors in 3 years, 5 years etc". Many arrive at this strategy through paid mentorship, while others settle on the strategy through their own education because its such a  widely discussed strategy with so many industry participants peddling the concept thanks to the low barrier of entry and ancillary services and fees that are generated.  I believe it's important to understand there are certainly examples of investors who succeed with the use of the section 8 rental program but there is generally an underlying thesis that leads to the success, not the section 8 program or "guaranteed rent"  in itself. That's an important distinction worth noting. 

When these posts surface there are two camps who chime in.  Those serving as cheerleaders and those who caution about the pitfalls. Usually those who caution offer cautionary tales because they learned first hand the difficulties in growing a scalable and PROFITABLE portfolio this way. Meanwhile the agents, PM's and lenders often serve as cheerleaders.  The cheerleaders are largely  fee oriented service providers and profit regardless of the underlying real estate's success. The good agents, PM's and lenders can pinpoint the risks and often do both in these forums and in their daily business but they are the minority (if you happen to have them in your rolodex,  hold on to those relationships, they will prove invaluable over time). 

This all sets the stage for what I share next and that's the frequency in which those who post about their lofty goals are seemingly unaffected by the sound advice those who have nothing to gain have to share. Often it's " I haven't had any issues with my initial properties, but thanks anyway"  or "my mentor showed me how to do it successfully".  

The best real estate advice I ever received was from the CEO of one of my first employers who became an impactful mentor of mine. His message was quite simple: Until you've been humbled, you have not figured out this business. The first property I ever purchased was a section 8 duplex in North Philadelphia. For those who don't know the market its not a place you want to drive through at night.  At the time of my purchase I was swayed by my realtor and his affiliated PM business despite  numerous higher ups at my employer trying convince me otherwise. Mind you I was fortunate to work for a company whose leadership is recognized as some of the most brilliant real estate minds in the business.   10+ years into this business I now appreciate the advice given to me at the time and my message to you is the same advice given to me. If you haven't personally been humbled by this business you should be more willing to listen to everyone's point of view, not only the cheerleaders. 

14Reply
62 views

Most Popular Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
2y

as it relates to section 8..  If there was some big play to happen with that program asset class and tenants.  the bigger syndicators would be all over it.

I personally dont know one syndicator or large investment companies that their business is to buy up 100s or thousands of section 8 houses'.  Might be one out there but I have not seen it.

Myself personally I had about 300 of them.. and wow was it so not worth it.. But I get it when you have that tenant dynamic IE limited income basically lowest earners in the country its a tough group to corral for many many reasons..

Folks just drink the cool aid of guaranteed rent.. In my mind if you need guaranteed rent you should not be buying in that area. Again my personal opinion.. And I am sure many locals who self manage do OK with it.. but its a JOB its not investing 

See this reply in the discussion

16 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Travis TimmonsPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Ellsworth, ME · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    I'll second that. Pain is the best educator, and too many confuse a bull market with brains. 

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y

    Just because your cheerleaders gave you bad advice, don't shoot the messengers.  If 1 out of 100 people is approached with this same option, and only one of them says they were highly successful at the option you are dismissing as "cheerleading", guess which one I'm following.

    The majority isn't always right, they're usually just the timid, and feel justified because they are surrounded by others just as timid.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y

    as it relates to section 8..  If there was some big play to happen with that program asset class and tenants.  the bigger syndicators would be all over it.

    I personally dont know one syndicator or large investment companies that their business is to buy up 100s or thousands of section 8 houses'.  Might be one out there but I have not seen it.

    Myself personally I had about 300 of them.. and wow was it so not worth it.. But I get it when you have that tenant dynamic IE limited income basically lowest earners in the country its a tough group to corral for many many reasons..

    Folks just drink the cool aid of guaranteed rent.. In my mind if you need guaranteed rent you should not be buying in that area. Again my personal opinion.. And I am sure many locals who self manage do OK with it.. but its a JOB its not investing 

  • Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    I guess I'm the rare contact in the rolodex that will give folks the good and the bad.

    I help people invest in Detroit and I get paid to do that. 

    And I will ALWAYS try and temper folks' desire to run a Section 8 focused strategy. I can speak from experience as I've had my fair share of S8 tenants.

    Some have been good, some really bad, and some middle of the road. Overall, I tell people my experience is mixed. I'm always open to S8 tenants but I'm not actively seeking them. And most of the time I'm buying in areas that do just fine attracting non-S8 tenants.

    There are a lot of "gurus" out there pushing this as a strategy though, and that's where all this is coming from. It's pitched as easy, guaranteed money on low-entry properties.

    The reality, of course, is that's too good to be true. And folks usually have to learn that the hard way.

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    2y

    @Stuart Udis great advice!

    @Travis Biziorek you & I are aligning more & more it seems:)

    What do you all think of my latest "cut & paste" advice below?

    The Real Estate Crash of 2008-2010 caused real estate prices to crash across the country - but didn't affect rent amounts. This caused a historically unique opportunity for investors - they could buy Class A properties and immediately cashflow when renting them out.

    This couldn't last forever, and it didn't, as excited new investors drove up prices.

    Eventually, Class A property values increased to the point that even increasing rents didn't allow them to cashflow upon purchase.

    So, the flood of new investors switched to buying Class B properties.

    COVID created a chaotic spike in both the sale & rental markets, attracting even more new real estate investors. According to CoreLogic, in December of 2023, almost 30% of home sales were to investors!

    Investment also spiked in Class A Short-Term Rentals (STR) and investors started paying higher and higher prices based upon anticipated STR rental rates, that exceeded sustainability based upon Long-Term Rental rates (LTR).

    Now we're seeing investors pouring money into buying Class C rentals - but, many are getting burned.

    In our experience & opinion, the main determinant of property Class is not location or even property condition, those are #2 and #3. The #1 determinant is the Tenant Pool.

    If you don't believe us, try putting several Class D tenants in Class A apartment buildings and watch what happens. Or try the reverse - rehab a property to Class A standards in a Class D neighborhood and try to get a Class A or B tenant to rent it.

    Unfortunately, many newbie real estate investors are jumping into buying affordable Class C rentals - expecting Class A results. In our opinion, Class C tenants have FICO scores from 560 to 620 - where their chance of default/nonpayment is 15-22%. See the chart from Fair Isaac Company (FICO) below:

    FICO Score

    Pct of Population

    Default Probability

    800 or more

    13.00%

    1.00%

    750-799

    27.00%

    1.00%

    700-749

    18.00%

    4.40%

    650-699

    15.00%

    8.90%

    600-649

    12.00%

    15.80%

    550-599

    8.00%

    22.50%

    500-549

    5.00%

    28.40%

    Less than 499

    2.00%

    41.00%

    Source: Fair Isaac Company

    According to this chart, investors should use corresponding vacancy+tenant-nonperformance factors of approximately 5% for Class A rentals, 10% for Class B and 20% for Class C.

    To address Class C payment challenges, many industry "experts" are now selling programs to newbie investors about how Section 8 tenants are the cure. If only it was that easy. Yes, the government pays the Section 8 rent timely, but more and more tenants are having to pay a portion of their rent. Then there are the challenges with Section 8 tenants paying utilities and taking care of their rental property.

    Investors should fully understand that Section 8 is not a cure-all for Class C & D tenant challenges, it's just trading one set of problems for another.

    We see too many investors not doing enough research to fully understand all this and making naïve investing decisions.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    2y

    @Stuart Udis

    “The cheerleaders are largely fee oriented service providers and profit regardless of the underlying real estate's success.”

    EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY!

    Taking advice from someone with a financial BIAS is dangerous to your financial health, unless you know that individual to be “above” short term personal gain and strictly in for long term relationships and reputation.  The problem is that even people who are providing advice that may be contrary to their short term personal gain and focused on long term benefits MAY change direction over night if their personal situation - usually financial - changes.  Here are some examples I am personally familiar with 

    1. A "sort of" competitor of mine who ran a small private lending fund was always operating in a fiduciary way vis a vi his investor's capital. All of a sudden he was making very high LTV loans on negative cash flowing assets that everyone else in the industry was turning down. He was demanding huge "points" to do these deals, raking in personally as many as 15 points on a deal. We found out later that he had just become engaged to a Russian "doll" 35 years his junior who believed he was worth about 200 times what he was.

    2. A CPA I knew who was a partner  in one of the largest international accounting firms was aways “straight up” in any advice he gave his clients.  Then the firm he worked for was sued by about everyone because they had the accounting work for Ivan Boesky. When the partner’s draw payments ceased this CPA became involved selling Sponsorships” in a very dubious MLM scheme; he was trading in all the goodwill and reputation he had garnered in 25 years of practice to make a quick hit because of his financial position. 

    3. A couple of guys in Houston started a hard money fund about 25 years ago, that grew exponentially and attracted some Hollywood name investors.  When confronted with defaults and not being able to continue payouts to investors from income, the fund resorted to funding crap deals at outrageous LTVs supported by highly inflated appraisals, because they could charge 10 points and use the points to pay investors.  What started out with 2 honest and trustworthy professionals ended with both accepting negotiated prison sentences. 

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    2y

    Cheerleaders are a part of participation trophy philosophy. "Hey, you are doing a really good job and this is a really good idea to invest in Section 8 1,000 miles away with limited capital and no experience. Here's a trophy that says Good job taking action." It's part of the problem and this was a great post.

    When you are one of the voices of reason here or in person, people who like back pats and can't handle criticism always do the same thing. They say you are mean or unsupportive or angry. Then you ask, "Why would I hop on a forum and spend my free time answering your question if it wasn't to help?" No answer.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

    Cheerleaders are a part of participation trophy philosophy. "Hey, you are doing a really good job and this is a really good idea to invest in Section 8 1,000 miles away with limited capital and no experience. Here's a trophy that says Good job taking action." It's part of the problem and this was a great post.

    When you are one of the voices of reason here or in person, people who like back pats and can't handle criticism always do the same thing. They say you are mean or unsupportive or angry. Then you ask, "Why would I hop on a forum and spend my free time answering your question if it wasn't to help?" No answer.

    Many “investors” want to be rich - but they DON’T want to do the work!  That’s why they pay $40,000 to a mentor - as a SHORTCUT.  But, sustainable success in real estate is built on first of all a thorough knowledge of real estate principles, real estate law, and real estate finance.  Without these fundamentals there’s absolutely no way to utilize the various strategies and techniques being sold. This is before even the problem that these techniques and strategies work only in a limited number of opportunities, and these opportunities can only be recognized by someone with knowledge of real estate principles, law and finance. 

    interestingly, what seems to sell nowadays is this pop cultural belief that education in anything but specific techniques is worthless; that something called motivation, combined with a positive mindset and an unwillingness to accept reality will triumph over anything else and lead to massive success.  Since rational thinking, solid economics, and true history aren’t allowed I. Our educational system anymore, it’s no shock that most people under a certain age have no ability for rational thinking.  If they did they’d realize that someone with no capital, no experience and no relevant education can’t possible compete in a field populated by people with 20 years experience spending $10k monthly on lead generation.  
    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:
    Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

    Cheerleaders are a part of participation trophy philosophy. "Hey, you are doing a really good job and this is a really good idea to invest in Section 8 1,000 miles away with limited capital and no experience. Here's a trophy that says Good job taking action." It's part of the problem and this was a great post.

    When you are one of the voices of reason here or in person, people who like back pats and can't handle criticism always do the same thing. They say you are mean or unsupportive or angry. Then you ask, "Why would I hop on a forum and spend my free time answering your question if it wasn't to help?" No answer.

    Many “investors” want to be rich - but they DON’T want to do the work!  That’s why they pay $40,000 to a mentor - as a SHORTCUT.  But, sustainable success in real estate is built on first of all a thorough knowledge of real estate principles, real estate law, and real estate finance.  Without these fundamentals there’s absolutely no way to utilize the various strategies and techniques being sold. This is before even the problem that these techniques and strategies work only in a limited number of opportunities, and these opportunities can only be recognized by someone with knowledge of real estate principles, law and finance. 

    interestingly, what seems to sell nowadays is this pop cultural belief that education in anything but specific techniques is worthless; that something called motivation, combined with a positive mindset and an unwillingness to accept reality will triumph over anything else and lead to massive success.  Since rational thinking, solid economics, and true history aren’t allowed I. Our educational system anymore, it’s no shock that most people under a certain age have no ability for rational thinking.  If they did they’d realize that someone with no capital, no experience and no relevant education can’t possible compete in a field populated by people with 20 years experience spending $10k monthly on lead generation.  

    Your last sentences are why they overreact to our sound advice in the forums. They don't understand that honesty is better than fake cuddles over everything. They only want the sunlight from others, but then they end up in the dark because they didn't listen.

  • Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    Being a natural cynic, it takes work to find the positive.  But to your point, there is a pressure within society, as a whole, the be positive.  I mean, no one wants to drag down someone else's mood simply because you are aren't feeling great. 

    At the end of the day, I do feel for people that were truly taken advantage of.  That are sold a bag of goods that could never be delivered on.  But if you are asking opinions, and receive them from people who have lived through it, and still choose to charge forward because the guru's voice is louder, well, that is on them.  They get no sympathy from me if they crash and burn.  But, I also recognize they have zero shot of getting to their goal if they don't actually take action towards it.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    100% agree with what @Jay Hinrichs says "In my mind if you need guaranteed rent you should not be buying in that area."

    I also hear a lot of how city of chicago is anti landlord on BP, I always tell clients don't buy in a bad area and it will not matter. My north side chicago units have run at under 3% vacancy and never had to give even a late payment. The tenants are so easy to manage and all pay on autopay electronically. Compare that to my sec 8 building in suburbs I am constantly texting these low lifes to get their tiny portion of the rent or to get roaches out of their units because they refuse to clean properly. 

    The lower class buildings look higher cashflow on paper but real life it all nets out around the same. Markets are relatively efficient even in real estate. 

  • Scott AllenBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2020 · 449 posts · 471 votes
    2y

    @Stuart Udis - LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Want to deal in section 8, get a property manager that breathes it.

    Reafco - Columbus, OH
  • Scott AllenBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2020 · 449 posts · 471 votes
    2y
    Reafco - Columbus, OH
  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    @Stuart Udis

    There are two ways to learn,, either on the street or in the classroom. Like most, I started n the street and lost a ton of money. I then turned to mentorship, and totally changed the trajectory of my investing. 

    And I agree with you, if you haven't lost money in this business, you are either extremely lucky or blessed. My business partner Jake was one of the lucky ones. When we partnered, I had already made all the mistakes and he avoided them from my experience.

    Gino

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

    as it relates to section 8..  If there was some big play to happen with that program asset class and tenants.  the bigger syndicators would be all over it.

    I personally dont know one syndicator or large investment companies that their business is to buy up 100s or thousands of section 8 houses'.  Might be one out there but I have not seen it.

    Myself personally I had about 300 of them.. and wow was it so not worth it.. But I get it when you have that tenant dynamic IE limited income basically lowest earners in the country its a tough group to corral for many many reasons..

    Folks just drink the cool aid of guaranteed rent.. In my mind if you need guaranteed rent you should not be buying in that area. Again my personal opinion.. And I am sure many locals who self manage do OK with it.. but its a JOB its not investing 


    Side bar to all this; 

    I know one who has about 7,000 sec8 units in portfolio. Total portfolio is around 20,000 units. 

    The sec8 units are a universe of difference from the others, operationally speaking. At 1 community there is a year round contract for 3 bed-bug extermination heating units, year round, and there at work 24-7.     It requires about 4x the labor staffing to operate the sec8 communities. 

    Now, despite this it is profitable, but key aspect is the special annual grants they get for having that % of total portfolio as subsidized housing. It's well into the 7 figures, annually, 8 some times. And with that, get's to reno places, improve, and than reset rents higher. That's the real reason they do it. 

    But like I mentioned, it's not for the timid, it's a whole program itself and some of the things I've seen in those units would blow your mind. Somebody is getting married so slaughter a goat as part of the feast, in your apartment, your 2nd floor apartment, and then wash the gut's and gore into hallway via a hose tapped to kitchen faucet to "clean up", the CARPETED hallway, carpeted apartment...... Yup, seen it. 

    The upsides gotta be worth it for the brain damage of it all. 

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    Been there and done that too.

    Used to manage 20 units with Section 8 while owning 10 units of my own

    After 3 months I saw how much more time I was spending on the Section 8 tenants

    The 20 units took up about 4-5 hours of my day EVERY DAY. This wasn't just time, it was constant repairs and handymen visiting the property and fixing things over and over. 

    The 10 units I owned - maybe 2-3 hours a month - if that

    Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
    View Page
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.