Investor · Warner Robins, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 490 votes
Alright so obviously if you do all the repairs yourself you're going to save a ton of money. Its great because you save money. Saving money is the key to living a great life.
FORGET THAT!
I just prepared and painted a single room in my building on my day off work. It took me all day and I'm not even completely finished yet.
Forget saving money. I can't wait until I can hire this out and never have to paint a room again.
You know what you should focus on instead of saving money by doing repairs yourself?
MAKING MORE MONEY!!!!!!!
There are a million and five things I'd rather be doing right now. Out on the weights, hitting the twisties, training my deadlift....
But no. I'm here enjoying some great conversation with Sherwin Williams.
If anyone ever tries to tell you to always do your own work to save money throughout your entire career because "why pay a contractor"
Take their advice and burn it. Then take the ashes and use them as chalk to work on your snatch grip deadlifts.
Real Estate Broker · CA · Member since 2016 · 243 posts · 226 votes
9y
I realize you posted this because sometimes after painting one just needs to complain a bit. But let me tell you why I think you do need to do your own repairs - at first.
1. Chances are early in your career this will save you money and you aren't making more than it tradesman in question. I am making assumptions on this one but they are true in most cases.
2. Learn the trades. This will allow you to understand how things work. It will make walk throughs on potential properties easier. It will assure you don't get ripped off when you do hire out. It will allow you to estimate costs quickly and easily. No assumptions here, applies to everyone.
3. Respect the tradesmen. Some of this work is hard. Some takes serious skill. Eventually you will hire out and it is good to be able to understand the work people are doing for you and respect them for it.
I did all the work I could do until about 15 units. Now I have 3 guys plus lots of other contractors and I respect the work they do. They know this and they also know I understand how things work and what they cost.
Matt
Investor · Skagit County, WA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 807 votes
9y
@Rosston Smith Thanks for the advice. I do want to learn the trades, but after it took me 4 hours to install a toilet (under the watchful eye of my dad), I can check that one off the list and now hire it out. I work all day in commercial construction management, and there is nothing that will substitute the actual doing the work, thought I can talk about labor hours and manage others to do it, I just only have sympathy, not empathy.
My husband and I are right there next to you working on our snatch grip deadlifts - that's all we want to do all day, not install toilets.
Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2014 · 239 posts · 177 votes
9y
Working as a contractor, and especially when we did all of our own hands on work, we would many times during remodels have home owners tell us "you do everything, except at the end we will paint to save money" and so much more often than not, the homeowner would be surprised by our "absolutely!!!" responses we give, assuming that we'd be upset by their decision to paint. I can't recall a single homeowner that we spoke with during or after their painting that didn't think it was a mistake taking on the painting themselves (lol). There's something about painting that so many people underestimate and feel it'll be a money and time saver doing it themselves. Must be the HGtv shows where one scene has a dark dingy room, then a snap of the fingers later there's a fully painted room, perfect cut in, no holidays and everyone's happy all within 15 minutes and all still smiles!
Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
9y
Amen, @Rosston Smith. And I don't get a tax deduction for my labor hours--hours that could've been put to use by making more money either through my CPA business or in real estate. But if I pay somebody $X an hour, I get a tax deduction for that amount.
That said, there is a list, similar to the one from @Adiel Arvizu, of tasks that I do do myself because it's quick and easy. But painting? NOPE.
Real Estate Broker · CA · Member since 2016 · 243 posts · 226 votes
9y
@Rosston Smith Yes I always knew you knew all this. I just thought it was good time to say it has value beyond the tedious work of paint prep. And that everyone successful puts in their time. I'm proud I used to do it all. And now that I have I can do more of my version of cliff jumping and sky diving and let my guys paint.
Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
9y
This is about the best DIY repair thread I've ever seen! And I've seen a lot as an extreme DIYer 'in recovery'. Getting used to stroking large checks is hard, but I'm trying. I was 3 weeks labor-abstained but relapsed this morning. I cleaned a stove and hung blinds. Dangit!
Congrats to everyone for not just saying to sit back and let a PM take care of it. Get tired real quick of hearing that one.
So many great points made. @Rosston Smith - I hear ya. Many a time I have screamed to the heavens over a DIY project I got myself into. Other than the time commitment, sounds like it is at least going as planned? Sometimes a cascade of unforeseen shade jumps out and grabs ya in addition to it taking longer and being harder than you thought.
If you stick this project out and get good at free-handing the cutting in, you can do a room in less time than it takes to schedule and check on the work like @Mindy Jensen points out. Tradesman can cause your turnover to stretch into months, waiting, re-scheduling, on and on. Even if something takes you twice as long, you won't have to wait 3 weeks for them to get there.
And that's if you have a good one! Nothing worse than having to come back and fix a bad job (in anything) as @JD Martin mentions. Painting comes to mind. Bad chatter-spackled paint-dripped mess. At least it costed too much and took too long. No thanks.
I have my selected tasks I like (like cutting grass- go figure) or I'll save sooo much time and money I can't resist. Do all plumbing and electrical you can if possible. Those guys are $100 to show up (in 2 weeks) and $20 a minute.
Get clarification from your tenants with service calls (what does 'my sink is broke' mean, exactly? Is it not draining, is it dripping...etc) Some calls may be a simple thing like a tripped breaker you can walk them through over the phone. Get to the bottom of the issue.
Don't be afraid to do what you like to do or to do what you need to do early on. Always keep what's more important a priority. Working 'on' your business is over-rated in the beginning. Until you are analyzing million dollar deals every 20 minutes, there's nothing wrong with doing some real work and getting your hands dirty working 'in' it.
Don't be afraid to do what you like to do or to do what you need to do early on. Always keep what's more important a priority. Working 'on' your business is over-rated in the beginning. Until you are analyzing million dollar deals every 20 minutes, there's nothing wrong with doing some real work and getting your hands dirty working 'in' it.
Cheers and thanks for a great discussion!
Preach it brother! This is the thing that I don't follow for the life of me. Every business that starts from ground zero has the CEO cleaning a toilet or taking out the trash at some point in the business's life. The idea that someone is some brilliant wheeler-dealer because he/she bought a few rental properties and now needs to join the country club to pencil the big deals, while the peons do the dirty work, makes me laugh.
I think the genesis of this mindset (I'm not saying Rosston has this mindset!) is the idea that RE is some passive activity. Yes, it is, if you are satisfied with smaller returns, it can be almost completely hands off. But completely hands-off and returning 15-25%, annually? No freaking way. That's the kind of growth seen by active businesses. I invest in RE, but that investment is really just part of the core pieces of my RE business.
Software Developer · Vidor, TX · Member since 2015 · 922 posts · 639 votes
9y
I'll have my S65 doing a smooth 130 all the way to Florida to sip drank soon enough... Only to be interrupted by a GC and realize I'll have to micro-manage adult 'professionals' while on 'vacation' or turn around, get in my stretchy shorts and go out to the site.
To me, it's either do a lot of the work and enjoy the surplus of money during down times for crazy fun/reinvestment, or hire out everything and get used to drinking keystone on the front porch.
You don't need the labor bill for tax deduction. Get reimbursed at market rate on the refinance and reinvest.
@Rosston Smith Thanks for the advice. I do want to learn the trades, but after it took me 4 hours to install a toilet (under the watchful eye of my dad), I can check that one off the list and now hire it out. I work all day in commercial construction management, and there is nothing that will substitute the actual doing the work, thought I can talk about labor hours and manage others to do it, I just only have sympathy, not empathy.
My husband and I are right there next to you working on our snatch grip deadlifts - that's all we want to do all day, not install toilets.
That's exactly what I'm talking about! You're going about this the right way and I wish you both luck on your snatch grip training! =)!
@Rosston Smith Thanks for the advice. I do want to learn the trades, but after it took me 4 hours to install a toilet (under the watchful eye of my dad), I can check that one off the list and now hire it out. I work all day in commercial construction management, and there is nothing that will substitute the actual doing the work, thought I can talk about labor hours and manage others to do it, I just only have sympathy, not empathy.
My husband and I are right there next to you working on our snatch grip deadlifts - that's all we want to do all day, not install toilets.
I've also had to install toilets
and its not something I'd like to be doing for the rest of my investment career.
Working as a contractor, and especially when we did all of our own hands on work, we would many times during remodels have home owners tell us "you do everything, except at the end we will paint to save money" and so much more often than not, the homeowner would be surprised by our "absolutely!!!" responses we give, assuming that we'd be upset by their decision to paint. I can't recall a single homeowner that we spoke with during or after their painting that didn't think it was a mistake taking on the painting themselves (lol). There's something about painting that so many people underestimate and feel it'll be a money and time saver doing it themselves. Must be the HGtv shows where one scene has a dark dingy room, then a snap of the fingers later there's a fully painted room, perfect cut in, no holidays and everyone's happy all within 15 minutes and all still smiles!
Hahahaha Todd that is the funniest thing! I absolutely believe that happens. Painting is HARD!!!!
To me, it's either do a lot of the work and enjoy the surplus of money during down times for crazy fun/reinvestment, or hire out everything and get used to drinking keystone on the front porch.
You don't need the labor bill for tax deduction. Get reimbursed at market rate on the refinance and reinvest.
Keystones on the front porch vs Coronas on the beach. Love it! I'll tell myself that next time I'm cursing another project. What's up with the stretchy shorts though? LOL
Agree with the tax deduction thing, too. It is nice to be able to deduct expensive labor, but you can invoice yourself via your mgt co if you have one. Right, @Logan CPA? I do if I need more retirement contributions or whatever. Lots of benefits to having your own personal mgt co.
@Rosston Smith Yes I always knew you knew all this. I just thought it was good time to say it has value beyond the tedious work of paint prep. And that everyone successful puts in their time. I'm proud I used to do it all. And now that I have I can do more of my version of cliff jumping and sky diving and let my guys paint.
Matt
Absolutely Matt I appreciate the value add! =)
What is your version of cliff jumping and sky diving?
This is about the best DIY repair thread I've ever seen! And I've seen a lot as an extreme DIYer 'in recovery'. Getting used to stroking large checks is hard, but I'm trying. I was 3 weeks labor-abstained but relapsed this morning. I cleaned a stove and hung blinds. Dangit!
Congrats to everyone for not just saying to sit back and let a PM take care of it. Get tired real quick of hearing that one.
So many great points made. @Rosston Smith - I hear ya. Many a time I have screamed to the heavens over a DIY project I got myself into. Other than the time commitment, sounds like it is at least going as planned? Sometimes a cascade of unforeseen shade jumps out and grabs ya in addition to it taking longer and being harder than you thought.
If you stick this project out and get good at free-handing the cutting in, you can do a room in less time than it takes to schedule and check on the work like @Mindy Jensen points out. Tradesman can cause your turnover to stretch into months, waiting, re-scheduling, on and on. Even if something takes you twice as long, you won't have to wait 3 weeks for them to get there.
And that's if you have a good one! Nothing worse than having to come back and fix a bad job (in anything) as @JD Martin mentions. Painting comes to mind. Bad chatter-spackled paint-dripped mess. At least it costed too much and took too long. No thanks.
I have my selected tasks I like (like cutting grass- go figure) or I'll save sooo much time and money I can't resist. Do all plumbing and electrical you can if possible. Those guys are $100 to show up (in 2 weeks) and $20 a minute.
Get clarification from your tenants with service calls (what does 'my sink is broke' mean, exactly? Is it not draining, is it dripping...etc) Some calls may be a simple thing like a tripped breaker you can walk them through over the phone. Get to the bottom of the issue.
Don't be afraid to do what you like to do or to do what you need to do early on. Always keep what's more important a priority. Working 'on' your business is over-rated in the beginning. Until you are analyzing million dollar deals every 20 minutes, there's nothing wrong with doing some real work and getting your hands dirty working 'in' it.
Cheers and thanks for a great discussion!
Yes sir! It definitely makes sense, and I'm doing that.
I just wanted to express my feelings about the IT part. Haha
Don't be afraid to do what you like to do or to do what you need to do early on. Always keep what's more important a priority. Working 'on' your business is over-rated in the beginning. Until you are analyzing million dollar deals every 20 minutes, there's nothing wrong with doing some real work and getting your hands dirty working 'in' it.
Cheers and thanks for a great discussion!
Preach it brother! This is the thing that I don't follow for the life of me. Every business that starts from ground zero has the CEO cleaning a toilet or taking out the trash at some point in the business's life. The idea that someone is some brilliant wheeler-dealer because he/she bought a few rental properties and now needs to join the country club to pencil the big deals, while the peons do the dirty work, makes me laugh.
I think the genesis of this mindset (I'm not saying Rosston has this mindset!) is the idea that RE is some passive activity. Yes, it is, if you are satisfied with smaller returns, it can be almost completely hands off. But completely hands-off and returning 15-25%, annually? No freaking way. That's the kind of growth seen by active businesses. I invest in RE, but that investment is really just part of the core pieces of my RE business.
There are two types of real estate investors.
1. Those who spend their life handling the majority of the labor (lockouts, toilets, painting, lawncare, rehab) etc...
and
2. Those who have transcended past unnecessary labor and pay others to do the brainless work, while they manage from the sidelines and live their life.
In my mind, professional real estate investing is a progression from ONE to TWO.
To each their own. Being a acknowledged workaholic I have no issues what so ever doing all my own work. There is no part of a total house renovation basement to attic inside and out that I have not completed myself many times.
Having said that I have no issues what so ever if another investor wishes to pay me $40-$60/hr to do their work for them and I can guarantee I will do a better job..
Real Estate Broker · CA · Member since 2016 · 243 posts · 226 votes
9y
@Rosston Smith Oh you know just some of the worst investments you can think of: a boat/jet ski, a plane and a second home. I have also always enjoyed coaching HS track. Recently however I seem to be mostly dealing with my 2 year old and tenants. You might also be interested to know I was able to negotiete most of those purchases by promising my wife I would never buy a motorcycle.
To me, it's either do a lot of the work and enjoy the surplus of money during down times for crazy fun/reinvestment, or hire out everything and get used to drinking keystone on the front porch.
You don't need the labor bill for tax deduction. Get reimbursed at market rate on the refinance and reinvest.
Keystones on the front porch vs Coronas on the beach. Love it! I'll tell myself that next time I'm cursing another project. What's up with the stretchy shorts though? LOL
Agree with the tax deduction thing, too. It is nice to be able to deduct expensive labor, but you can invoice yourself via your mgt co if you have one. Right, @Logan CPA? I do if I need more retirement contributions or whatever. Lots of benefits to having your own personal mgt co.
Stretchy shorts from Walmart and a T are my landlord uniform, haha.
Investor · Kamuela, HI · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 3 votes
9y
iI am a finish carpenter by trade and know firsthand how physical work is generally harder and takes longer than you expect it to be. I just finished building a 3000 square-foot house in Hawaii by myself only contracting out plumbing, electrical and painting. The house is fully custom with tons of built-in cabinets, reclaimed wide plank hardwood floors and open beam ceilings. It honestly barely seemed worth it at the time. But I did finish, I built it for under $80 per square foot, local builders can barely build a cheap kit house for under 150 per square foot here. We put a decent amount down and after collecting rent from our downstairs apartment our portion of the mortgage is only $800 a month for my family and I to live in it now. Totally worth it now, but the struggle is real!
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
9y
I like doing repairs, when i have time. Tenant called today and said heat didnt work. I could do 1 of 2 things. 1. Have hvac guy go out for 100 for "diagnostic", then however much any repair more than flipping a switch.
2. Go out myself for free.
I chose number 2, and found 2 problems....ground wire fell off the shut off switch plus thermostat brokent. Reattached ground wire, Bought new identical thermostat, put in existing housing...30 minutes and 25 bucks. If i chose no 1. Probably 150-200 bucks. Requires some ability to have done what i did and been confident in it, but saying that.....im going to sizzler
Investor · Kaneohe, HI · Member since 2012 · 218 posts · 104 votes
9y
@Rosston Smith I believe time is the most valuable thing and if you have to work a week to pay to hire a painter that can do it in a day vs you doing it in 2 days, you better be DIY. If you have enough rentals that you make enough money in the 2 days it would take you to cover this expense, then hire it out. Its all about measuring time and as they say time is money.
The consumer mindset says, "I can save money and do it myself".
The entrepreneurial mindset says, "I can make better use of my time paying others to do it."
Think of money as a "renewable resource" - you can always get more. (W2 people just gasped, swallowed their dinner with out chewing, spit their mouthful of beer or coffee across the room, ...)
Don't be afraid to do what you like to do or to do what you need to do early on. Always keep what's more important a priority. Working 'on' your business is over-rated in the beginning. Until you are analyzing million dollar deals every 20 minutes, there's nothing wrong with doing some real work and getting your hands dirty working 'in' it.
Cheers and thanks for a great discussion!
Preach it brother! This is the thing that I don't follow for the life of me. Every business that starts from ground zero has the CEO cleaning a toilet or taking out the trash at some point in the business's life. The idea that someone is some brilliant wheeler-dealer because he/she bought a few rental properties and now needs to join the country club to pencil the big deals, while the peons do the dirty work, makes me laugh.
I think the genesis of this mindset (I'm not saying Rosston has this mindset!) is the idea that RE is some passive activity. Yes, it is, if you are satisfied with smaller returns, it can be almost completely hands off. But completely hands-off and returning 15-25%, annually? No freaking way. That's the kind of growth seen by active businesses. I invest in RE, but that investment is really just part of the core pieces of my RE business.
There are two types of real estate investors.
1. Those who spend their life handling the majority of the labor (lockouts, toilets, painting, lawncare, rehab) etc...
and
2. Those who have transcended past unnecessary labor and pay others to do the brainless work, while they manage from the sidelines and live their life.
In my mind, professional real estate investing is a progression from ONE to TWO.
This is an elitist mindset for several reasons:
1. Doing manual labor is not inherently brainless. It also should really not be beneath anyone. There's nothing embarrassing or humiliating about changing a toilet or painting a wall. I have a terminal doctoral degree and have been a top executive for many years, and I don't see anything wrong with snaking a sewer line or taking a load of trash to the dump.
2. The idea that one is so in demand that "their time" makes more money doing something else is laughable. Most of the "make more money" time is inevitably spent doing dead snatches, drinking Coronas on the beach, and lots of other stuff that have zero monetary value and usually cost money.
I don't discount the idea of having enough money to buy you time, which is something that can't be replaced. Drinking Coronas is fun, and life should be fun. But the vast majority of everyone will work until they are dead because they are unwilling to put in the hard work that gets you above the crowd. You didn't have to paint that room if you are satisfied with 5% returns.
I know a decent number of "self made" wealthy people, and to a person they all busted *** up to the point they didn't have to anymore. Conversely, every time I try to hire someone for a job, they all want to start at executive management with little experience and often fewer skills.
PS: Just the fact that you were painting shows you're not an elitist. However, you shouldn't assume everyone dreams to do dead lifts. Honestly, I prefer manual labor; it just doesn't pay enough to do for someone else. On the weekends, I can often be found working on my truck or pulling weeds in my garden, both jobs I could easily pay someone else to do but that I prefer to do myself.
@Rosston Smith Rant away! I feel your pain. My husband and I are house hacking a 4 unit and renovating all units. We are doing the bulk of the work ourselves, and have two young kids and full time jobs so we work on it 8PM-11:30PM everyday; we also aim to get a few morning and afternoon hours in on weekends. I got up early this morning to take last nights kitchen demo to the dump before the kids woke up. I'll be home for lunch to finish out the demo, and the rest of my week is slated for painting then kitchen install.
This is our first property; by the 3rd or 4th I'm hoping our time will be too valuable to do the work ourselves, at which point I'll hire it out. And at that time I'll know what it takes to do the work and do it right, so I'll be more confident in interviewing potential tradesmen/contractors.
I'm with you, painting sucks and I'd much rather be out enjoying myself. But I've worked in biotech start ups and remember the VP of research doing simple lab tasks/experiments and the CEO taking out the trash. You do what you have to do to build your business until your business can afford to hire it out.
