Verifying Members: How can BP help you more safely connect?

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Verifying Members: How can BP help you more safely connect?

Joshua D.Pro Member
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

One of the challenges that we all face today, I believe, is coming to know and trust people that we meet online.

This is an incredibly difficult task for everyone, and is why doing your due diligence on deals and people is paramount these days.

We've been brainstorming for some time how to come up with a way to help you with this task and have come up with some ideas.

Before we proceed with anything, I wanted to get your feedback, as I think it will help us find our path forward.

Q1: If You're Going to Do Business with Someone, how much information would you want from them to identify that they are who they say they are?

In other words, what would I need someone to show me to prove that they are who they say they are?

Q2: Beyond a drivers license or passport match, are there other methods that would help you feel confident that someone is who they claim to be?

Q3: In order to make yourself more "credible," would you be willing to pay some fee (TBD) for BiggerPockets to "verify" that you (the person you claim to be on your BP profile) are who you really are.

I've spoken with several members who believe that having some means to verify your ID is a great step in the right direction. They felt that by our "verifying" their identity, it would give them more legitimacy and would help them stand out amongst those people here (and elsewhere online) who use fake names/identities.

-----

Personally, I think it also lends more legitimacy, and hope that you agree. We're also exploring ideas about verifying that a member has done the deals/business that they claim . . . more about this another time.

This is an extremely important subject and I'm looking forward to your feedback.

Thanks!

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Brad B.
Contractor · Arcade, NY · Member since 2011 · 44 posts · 31 votes
15y

I think this is an interesting issue and I'm glad to see it addressed in this forum.

The first thing I would say is that BP should probably not act as the verifying agent. Taking money and issuing a verified-by certification based on BP management evaluation for someone's profile is asking for trouble. I think a few litigators just wet themselves in excitement thinking about it.

If I owned BP, I would keep as far out of the mix as possible except to provide a central directory. I would look to act simply as a broker or a trusted middle man. Take the money to cover a background / identity check and then pass that off to a reputable vendor. If everything comes back good, then issue the avatar or whatever device to show the person is reasonably believed to be who they say they are.

This model does offer up quite an opportunity for enhanced checks. See if the vendor is willing to do a simple check for some low amount covered within the price of a pro account membership. That would be a good entry level. If a member wants a more thorough validation, say if they were doing more deals via the site, then offer an enhanced background through the vendor. It may be a good marketing expense for the member.

The big thing is to not have BP make the final determination on who is trustworthy and who isn't. Base the data on the analysis of a company specially designed to absorb the risks associated.

My day job doesn't specifically do backgrounds, but I deal with it quite a bit. Generally, we see basic checks being done reasonably - a couple hundred dollars - which if you could negotiate a volume deal with a vendor, you could probably negotiate that price down to something manageable for a membership upsell. A good due-diligence check for someone in an important position normally runs a few thousand, which again could be negotiated as an upsell.

After that we start seeing big dollars. A corporate board member investigation could run into the $100k+ range depending on the company. Your typical top secret bg investigation would be somewhere in that range as well. My rambling point is that even at those top levels, no one can be 100%. It becomes about acceptable risk.

I would hate to see BP go away because someone trusted someone else in a deal gone bad because of a determination made solely by BP management and the lawyers came out to play. I think the idea is great, as long as it's executed correctly.

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  • Nick J.
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    this is a great topic to have brought up.

    I'm not sure its your responsibility to 'verify' someone. You're merely creating a space for those of us who are willing to exchange interactions with each other.

    If someone isn't aware of how to verify someone else, maybe it would be more beneficial to put out some interactive guide that helps people do it themselves.

    When I read this post of yours, it makes me think people are looking to you to do their work for them and if the relationship doesn't work out..............its easy to blame you.

    2Reply
  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    15y

    Nick -
    I'm not interested in doing this because I think it is our responsibility, but I do think that we can help people build their own credibility by figuring out a way to "verify" people.

    Doing so, I believe, will make BP a more attractive place to network and do business.

    That's my goal - help us by helping you!

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  • Darryl Dahlen
    Commercial Loan Officer · Southern Maine, ME · Member since 2009 · 782 posts · 415 votes
    15y

    I am so behind this! Anything that can help the honest folk get a leg up on the scammers has my support.

    In an effort to keep it simple, I would be willing to pay a fee and provide references that BP could check out. As long as the references can be verified as being legit and are not friends/relatives of the person being vetted I would think that's a good start.

    If anyone who has been in business for any amount of time can't provide 3 or 4 credible references something isn't right.

    1Reply
  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    15y

    Hey Darryl -
    I think you've already jumped ahead to the next step in my thought process, which I definitely want to explore.

    At the moment, I want to keep the scope a bit more narrow to talk about simply the verification of your identity.

    Eg. Your profile says that your name is Darryl Dahlen from Southern Maine. Can we verify that information for starters?

    Of course we can - if you supply us with a drivers license or passport, we can then verify this info.

    Would people be willing to supply this information?

    I wouldn't want to have to hold the info, but once we saw it and confirmed it, we could then elevate your profile as verified.

    We could then add additional levels of verification including references as you suggested, and so on.

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  • Darryl Dahlen
    Commercial Loan Officer · Southern Maine, ME · Member since 2009 · 782 posts · 415 votes
    15y

    Gotcha. Personally, I'd be fine with you verifying my location and/or proving I am who I say I am.

    What would I be willing to show you to prove that? I'd be willing to provide a copy of an ID (with no SS number of course) along with a copy of a bill to show I live where I say I live.

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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    15y

    I don't know how a "fee" would verify people.

    Would this be a one time "fee" or an ongoing expense.If that's the case then I would put it in an advertising cost category.

    I agree that many that post here could say anything.Some of us it's easy to verify who we are.

    I have websites,name,contact info,e-mail,my license can be checked and my company at the Georgia Real Estate Commission website.

    I can also provide references for people that contact me directly who want to do business with me.I don't really see about that what else would be needed that is not already provided.

    You have to be careful with these verifying for paying fees.I have seen in the past where parties pay fees to give the credibility and it turns out they are a scammer.

    What I would like to see on this site for an idea is the level of a deal people are seeking.For instance I get contacted by many wanting to buy a 15,000 property in GA that makes 700 a month.

    While I appreciate the gesture the deals I work on are usually much larger on the commercial side and that small a payout for the time invested is not my target audience.

    I would have to run myself ragged to make 1k in commission when average is 20 to 30 times that.

    So knowing out of the 60,000 members how many have funds to go after certain types of deals would be helpful.

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    @Nick - Like Josh stated, this is noty about responsibility fo BP but a service they are potentially interested in providing to members and I love the idea.

    @Joel - You are correct that there are many scammers out there and some verification service could be scam included which is what makes Josh's idea nad offering so grand in that it is BP who runs the check/verification. Since we are members and already trust BP Nation for dong the right thing for its members, I see that the risk you speak of goes away so long as it is Josh and company doing the actual verifications in house.

    @Josh - Love your idea, I would use it. I think it opens the door for you to offer Pro account members this service perhaps at a lower rate than non pro account members. i think it offers all users the ability to get a check on aonther member from a trusted source - BP Nation and I think scammers could be pushed away with this extra "security" effort.

    Now may not be the time, but the service may potentially include verifying through public records RE transaction histories and other means to verify that the person is who they say and did what they say they did.

    Would I offer my drivers license/passport or other persoanal/business documentation to BP to verufy? The answer is yes IF that info was not shared with anyone, including the person requsting the info and that BP providing a specific document/contract stating that the information provided would not be shared other than giving confirmation that we are who we stated.

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  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    15y

    Darryl - Thanks for the feedback - I would NEVER want to see a SS# . . . too much liability, IMO.

    Joel - I agree that it becomes easy to verify certain people based on memberships, licenses, etc., but in order to create the very basic confirmation of identity, we need some kind of one size fits all method. I think the easiest is a drivers license, though, even that wouldn't be 100% effective as scammers could fake it.

    We would never guarantee the identities of anyone - doing your due diligence would still be your responsibility - but, I think it would weed out a ton of the riff-raff . . .

    As for verifying funds and the rest of what you were talking about . . . we've been talking about that as well.

    Perhaps I should rephrase all the questions into one simple one:
    Would you be willing to supply BP with a valid drivers license and a nominal fee in order to verify that you are who you say you are?

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  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    15y

    Will - Thanks for the feedback. All the other verifications (public records, transaction histories, etc.) are things we're also discussing -- it all starts with baby steps as I've said before. I think the first of those steps is confirming that we've seen some form of ID that states that the person whose name/location are listed on a profile match the person whose ID have been supplied.

    As for the privacy of any information supplied to us, that would never be shared. In fact, I believe that we'd simply look at the document, verify, and then shred it. Of course, we'd then mark your profile as verified.

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    Sounds good to me Josh.

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  • Uwe S.
    Property Manager · Dublin, OH · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 291 votes
    15y

    Best is meet in real life and you will see no problem.

    -Uwe

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  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Uwe S.:
    Best is meet in real life and you will see no problem.

    -Uwe

    I'm not sure about you, Uwe, but I've met some people in real life who weren't who they said they were . . . go to a bar and test it out.... :mrgreen:

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Joshua Dorkin:
    Originally posted by Uwe S.:
    Best is meet in real life and you will see no problem.

    -Uwe

    I'm not sure about you, Uwe, but I've met some people in real life who weren't who they said they were . . . go to a bar and test it out.... :mrgreen:

    I second that!
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  • Account Closed
    Full-Time Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    i'd send in a copy of my id..i think it's a good first step..then again, i went thru 3 fake id's before i was 21, so how hard is to get a fake id when you're of age and actually have money???

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  • Rob Caldwell
    Investor · Mooreville, NC · Member since 2008 · 139 posts · 58 votes
    15y

    I think Dunn and Bradstreet does something similar to this. They will issue a D&B D-U-N-S number after they have checked out the business.

    0Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    15y

    I remember in high school when internet was first coming about.

    Me and my buddies went on there and he was in the chat rooms.Over the few weeks he started talking to this girl from the same county and she gave him a picture.

    He then set up a meeting a few weeks later at a Kmart parking lot.He told us at school the next day that he drove up and she was HUGE and he floored that sucker and got out of there!! LOL

    We laughed like crazy for 10 minutes.

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  • Bridget D.
    Involved In Real Estate · Westchester, CA · Member since 2010 · 56 posts · 3 votes
    15y

    IMO it would depend on the level of information and when the information would be passed onto the inquiring party. Say for instance if myself and Bob were getting ready to do a transaction and Bob wanted to check my information or vice versa. Once either myself or Bob released authorization to BP for that particular person or persons on a case by case basis, I'd be fine with that.. I personally wouldn't want to release my information to BP and Joe Blow decided I was cute or even worse I pissed him off and now he'd like to know where I reside, and unfortunately with the least bit of information he or she would be able to find out.. Basically, I'd be fine with giving the information to BP but I would definitely like to give authorization each and every time it was requested so that I could have the option to deny or approve their request.. I hope that makes sense :D

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    @Bridget - Makes sense.
    Keep in mind that I believe Josh was intending to have you pay a small fee to BP for them to check you out, then once you have been verified that you are who you say you are, you would get some kind of identity verification checkmark on your profile so others would know that you have already been checked out by BP.

    Then perhaps, if one member wanted to specifically check out another, they could make a request for a nominal fee if accepted.
    Then perhaps other additional verification services could be made by BP Nation, some similar to the Dunn & Bradstreet version mentioned by Rob.

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  • Jake Kucheck
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 380 votes
    15y

    Agreed with Joel that there could be a lot of value in a "verification of funds" type system. I don't mean publish people's bank accounts, but perhaps some way to document deals done as an investor. I know most local MLS will let you look up another agent's transactional history, so that way you know if the agent is going to screw up your sale or not. Since properties have addresses, I would envision it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to prove whether or not you did a deal on a specific property. You either own it, or you don't. You either flipped it, or you didn't. You either have a DOT recorded on it, or you don't.

    I'm not saying our profiles should look like the back of baseball cards, but I often see the details of a deal being posted in the forums to "prove" experience or similar. Just seems easier to have these already in place, and in the same place, so those of us that are here to help can figure out how to best use our time.

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  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    15y

    Will, Bridget -
    I wasn't talking about disclosing anyone's information to anyone else - in fact, I think that's a bad idea.

    All I'm talking about is verifying that your profile matches your ID. At that point, if someone wants your address or contact info, it is up to you to disclose.

    We'd merely verify the above and give you the "checkmark" - then, we'd destroy your ID, so we'd have no way to pass your info on to anyone.

    Jake - The verification of funds and deals closed, etc. are all great ideas that we've explored. For now, we want to just get more feedback on the verification of an identity for starters.

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  • Brad B.
    Contractor · Arcade, NY · Member since 2011 · 44 posts · 31 votes
    15y

    I think this is an interesting issue and I'm glad to see it addressed in this forum.

    The first thing I would say is that BP should probably not act as the verifying agent. Taking money and issuing a verified-by certification based on BP management evaluation for someone's profile is asking for trouble. I think a few litigators just wet themselves in excitement thinking about it.

    If I owned BP, I would keep as far out of the mix as possible except to provide a central directory. I would look to act simply as a broker or a trusted middle man. Take the money to cover a background / identity check and then pass that off to a reputable vendor. If everything comes back good, then issue the avatar or whatever device to show the person is reasonably believed to be who they say they are.

    This model does offer up quite an opportunity for enhanced checks. See if the vendor is willing to do a simple check for some low amount covered within the price of a pro account membership. That would be a good entry level. If a member wants a more thorough validation, say if they were doing more deals via the site, then offer an enhanced background through the vendor. It may be a good marketing expense for the member.

    The big thing is to not have BP make the final determination on who is trustworthy and who isn't. Base the data on the analysis of a company specially designed to absorb the risks associated.

    My day job doesn't specifically do backgrounds, but I deal with it quite a bit. Generally, we see basic checks being done reasonably - a couple hundred dollars - which if you could negotiate a volume deal with a vendor, you could probably negotiate that price down to something manageable for a membership upsell. A good due-diligence check for someone in an important position normally runs a few thousand, which again could be negotiated as an upsell.

    After that we start seeing big dollars. A corporate board member investigation could run into the $100k+ range depending on the company. Your typical top secret bg investigation would be somewhere in that range as well. My rambling point is that even at those top levels, no one can be 100%. It becomes about acceptable risk.

    I would hate to see BP go away because someone trusted someone else in a deal gone bad because of a determination made solely by BP management and the lawyers came out to play. I think the idea is great, as long as it's executed correctly.

    4Reply
  • Account Closed
    Full-Time Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    would displayed names have to follow a format?? first name last name? or would that be unchanged??

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  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by BryanA:
    would displayed names have to follow a format?? first name last name? or would that be unchanged??

    I don't understand the question, Bryan. Can you rephrase?

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  • Jake Kucheck
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 380 votes
    15y

    I think Bryan is asking if he could continue to be BryanA or if he would need to be Bryan Alenky in your proposed verification system.

    1Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    Josh, I would like to see many held to some standard of verification, I really would. Claims that are made not only in a profile but in the forums could be nothing more than puffing or outright lies. But, sooner or later, regardless of their real name, there are enough people here to call out those who make obsurd claims. Eventually the light will shine through.

    We have already discussed the influence point issue and how some play the system, so it's getting to the point that, IMO, it is not the indicator it was devised to be.

    I agree with Brad above. I can see this as a fee opportunity, but I don't think we should hold BP responsible in any way for the accuracy of who or what someone says they are. I would happily send you a phot copy of my driver's license, but does that really prove anything?

    Those who decieve as a course of business would think nothing of seeing what the system requires prior to signing up and then setting up their position with the requirements needed.

    I could set up an account in my cousin's name, girl friend, whatever and you would never be able to verify that that individual was in fact the one making claims or posts, not unless we turn on the camera for a video reply.

    Without extensive investigation, identifying a scammer with a brain would be pretty hard and I don't see that it is BP's responsibility to do so.
    It's much like a dating site (that I have heard of) where people lie about their weight and post 10 year old pictures. It's up to the individual to perform due diligence about that person and judge if they are who they say they are.

    At least in real estate before you lay money on the table, there is a closing agent to verify ID. If anyone is sending anyone money for anything, they probably need to re-think what they might be doing.

    As a social site, I don't see any difference in someone saying they are Robert or Sally, we should all know that the name may not be correct, why would that be a concern at the social interaction level?

    However, I would really like to see a verification of claims made in a profile as I can read some and then what they say and I know without a doubt they are full of it. That may not be apparent to many others.

    And, there are a few of us on here with extensive experience and wearing many hats over the years, how do you verify that? Show HUD statements? In my case, how would I even do that over 35 years? Anyone can check with the real estate commission about my broker's license (which one member did and messed up as you might recall). You can also call the FDIC Personnel Office in my case. My appraisal experience was accomplished before the state required a license, so how do we verify that, show narrative appraisals done? I think the easiest way is to check what someone might say and make a determination as to them having a clue as to what they are talking about.

    I just don't think BP is responsible for watching out for members, while I'm sure there are members that will accept what some say or propose, hook line and sinker, it's their responsible to verify it. Trust, but verify is up to the members.

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