Does anyone own Four or more Turnkeys?

Does anyone own Four or more Turnkeys?

Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

I was reading BP Brandons latest turnkey blog post and there were just a couple comments. I know there are some bpers into turnkeys but when you check they only have 2 or 3 turnkeys tops...even with the bp folks who are the biggest advocates...they don't have more purchased.

It seems odd as it gets a lot of attention but when you start to pull back the layers....well it is like the Wizard of Oz...just one guy behind a curtain making a lot of noise. 

Now I am talking about from a traditional TK company, I was curious is there anyone on BP who has bought four or more?

How many? 

What is your longest hold time?

Thanks!

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Chris ClothierBusiness Member
Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y

@Matt R. ,

First, I know that Saturdays are probably a busy day for you, but if you can get away this Saturday I am going to be out in California.  I am going to be talking about a lot of data, numbers and processes of Memphis Invest this Saturday morning in Orange County.  I know that is probably two hours for you, but would love to chat with you about business and share with you some of how we work and get your thoughts.  Saturday morning will be our event and we will have about 150 investors there - 40 of which are current investors and right now there are 14 who own 5 or more properties.  

Would love to have you there and everyone is free to talk to any investors in the room to hear about the good and the bad.  They will share warts and all!  Plus we are giving them their 2014 analysis at that event so they will see exactly how their portfolio performed last year.  It will be up to them, but I'm sure all will share how they performed.

I am also going to drive up the BP Meetup in the Beverly Hills area that afternoon.  There I will just be a guest and looking forward to meeting other BP members, but would still welcome the chance to meet and talk.

Finally, Sunday...I may be able to hit the surf!  As soon as I finalize my schedule I will reach out and see if its possible to grab a lesson from you!

The numbers:

We have a designation for investors with 5 or more properties.  They are called the WOW Group.  They have wowed us by purchasing what is essentially a half million dollar portfolio and we want to WOW them with extra service.  Here is the breakdown on our investors for total transparency:

Investors - Properties

126 WOW Group with 5 or more       -       850 properties

1 with 15                      -          15 properties
1 with 14                     -           14 properties
2 with 13                      -          26 properties
1 with 12                      -          12 properties
2 with 11                      -          22 properties
4 with 10                      -          40 properties
5 with 9                        -          45 properties
17 with 8                      -       136 properties
20 with 7                      -       140 properties
35 with 6                      -       210 properties
38 with 5                      -       190 properties
60 with 4                      -       240 properties
115 with 3                    -       345 properties
267 with 2                    -       534 properties
469 with 1                    -       469 properties 

Just illustrates how long it takes to build up an investors portfolio.  Part of our problem now is so many investors that they have to be patient when buying their next property.  We sell between 58% and 64% of our monthly closings to current investors buying their next property.  With an average of 56 closings per month, that means investors simply have to be patient if they want to continue to buy with us.  That takes planning and patience.

As for the investors with 1 property, most are set and have a plan to buy more.  Many first purchased in 2013, 2014, 2015, but there are probably 100-150 of them who will not purchase another property.  Some were mistakes on our part, some were mistakes on the investors part (no Turnkey investor should ever stop at one property - in my opinion if they do there was a mistake made).  I would be a liar if I said all of them were completely, 100% satisfied with their investment.  Some of those investors with one property will not buy a second from us and many are still sitting on one property from back in 2009-2011.  

Again, that shows an error on our part, but a vast majority of those investors will build beyond 2 or 3 - it just takes time to push them up the ladder.  

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Chris Clothier 

      I hear ya.. Brian and I have the same airplane...And we both love to fly ...

  • Investor · Frisco, TX · Member since 2014 · 31 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    @Jay Hinrichs I currently have buy and hold properties, but would like to learn the ropes of note-buying. What's a good way to get started? Books you'd recommend? Websites? 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Lance Borden 

    first thing I would do is find the most respected and reputable HML in your immediate area and see if they are bringing on new investors. The HML will be doing one of two methods for raising capital either a PPM which I am sure you know what that entails. And or simply brokering or matching you up to a singular loan on a specific property. I am not sure if in Texas you can Fractionalize beneficial interest like your allowed to do in CA. ( its not allowed in Oregon for instance) But if it is allowed in Texas then your HML there will put smaller investors together as co beneficiaries of a singular loan... Of course one Note one investor is the preferred method.. However its much harder to do that when loan size are really large say 200k or more. If you want to venture into NPN realm there is plenty of talk on BP about these.. Of course those require you to engage in the entire process and unless you have some knowledge about how notes work you will go through a big learning curve with those.... My thought process is I don't want to knowingly go into a default situation. the only way I would do that is if it was my business and I was going to ramp up and buy 100 to 1000's of them. I would never do just one or a few WAY to much work and drama for me personally... With the Caveat if the NPN was in my immediate market and I thought there was tremendous upside by foreclosing it out I would look at that.. But I have done well over 200 foreclosure personally ( and unfortunately) so I am familiar with the process again was never my intention to ever foreclose I am not a loan to own type of investor.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    I own two in Kansas City and just picked up one in Charlotte. Turnkeys doing 10-11% cap rates, I like the contacts I got in both towns from Bigger Pockets! :) Diversifying my portfolio outside of TX.

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 808 posts · 417 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed regarding your earlier comment about ROI going down over time, wouldn't the ROI go up assuming you bought in a market that at least keeps up with inflation and assuming your underwriting factored in capex and R&M? Assuming the property values rise and you are paying down your mortgage you could at some point refi the whole property and get an 80% LTV loan. Again assuming strong cash flow returns to pay the mortgage this would give you your money back and give you a free ride on the cash flow and appreciation going forward.

  • Investor · Frisco, TX · Member since 2014 · 31 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    @Jay Hinrichs thanks for the reply and recommendations. I am in contact with a an HML here and will continue to pursue them per your advice.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Lance Borden 

      yup after I wrote that I thought Crap I just hijacked a thread.. it never comes to me when I was doing it... sorry bout that I should have replied to you on a PM

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Charles Worth 

      The assumption that the assets rise in value is the issue.. some markets that happens other markets just trundle along and market really never moves appreciably and depending on value of collateral sometimes small mortgages can be tough to get..

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 808 posts · 417 votes
    11y

    @Jay Hinrichs very true but even if the property had 0% price appreciation and you paid down the mortgage ROI would be somewhat steady minus the refi expenses because you could still refi on the value it was purchased at, maybe at a higher rate if you have too many properties and need a portfolio lender but its still a refi.

    Prices could decline too but assuming you like the market and that reason did not change your ROI would go down on your property but if you still had cash to invest you could buy properties from those who underwrote appreciation (i.e. need to refi to pay capex etc.) so your portfolio ROI would remain high.

    Or the market could change and prices decline in which case it would not have been a great investment. This would be a mistake in judgement though on the part of buyer though. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Charles Worth 

      yes and no on the mistake in judgment statement... No one could have ( at least  very few) could have forseen the price corrections from 07 to 2010 or so... Homes in many markets fell up to 80%  far below replacement costs in many cases.

    I know I had loans on 460 of them when the ******** hit the fan... it was bloody sunday that's for sure... So some markets have never recovered and some are beginning to and or have.

    And some will never in my mind ever get back to their peaks.. Because IMHO you have taken what were owner occ neighborhoods and turned them into Renter dominated neighborhoods so that is were they will stay for many many years.. with investors backing into the value based on cash flow.. Be it the 2% rule that is popular on BP or other metrics.

    as we know homeowners don't look at cash flow to make a buying decision but they certainly look at the astetics of the neighborhood or street.. And if they can buy a nice new construction a little bit out of town as opposed to buying on a street that is 50 to 60% rentals and we know that renters do not keep the houses as nice as Owner Occ 90% of the time you won't have any price rise and you could easily have price compression.. Say one investor bought at the 1% rule but no investor will buy unless its 2% ( very common) then they will sell for a loss ..

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Charles Worth Yes, you are correct. In theory you could refi the cash out of the house and continue. That is one option. Or you take the full equity out on sale and roll it into another asset with a different risk/reward structure. I would probably not want to hold C-Class properties forever. If my plan works, I will pay down the mortgage fully in 10 years. Then I take 4X my original investment back out and possibly pay cash for a higher end A/B class houses  that has better appreciation potential and decent cash flow (since no mortgage). That may be what I want 8 years from now. Or take the equity out and pay off much of my primary residence. I know, all the math suggests thats not good return but at some point I do want to have paid of primary home and rentals and just enjoy the cash flow. 

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Charles Worth Yes, you are correct. In theory you could refi the cash out of the house and continue. That is one option. Or you take the full equity out on sale and roll it into another asset with a different risk/reward structure. I would probably not want to hold C-Class properties forever. If my plan works, I will pay down the mortgage fully in 10 years. Then I take 4X my original investment back out and possibly pay cash for a higher end A/B class houses  that has better appreciation potential and decent cash flow (since no mortgage). That may be what I want 8 years from now. Or take the equity out and pay off much of my primary residence. I know, all the math suggests thats not good return but at some point I do want to have paid of primary home and rentals and just enjoy the cash flow. 

     Anish - that is an excellent plan for two reasons.  

    1.  Just the fact that you have a plan and are following it without running down every shiny object path.  That is HUGE! 

    2.  The second reason is that at some point some investors want to be done investing and begin enjoying (not saying you can't enjoy while you invest).  For me personally, I am eliminating all debt and reducing my personal residence principle at a fast rate as well.  I have refinanced to shorter terms and lower rates and continue to pay them off quickly.  I do the same with my investment properties.  I feel it gives me the ultimate flexibility and if you accomplish that through purchasing turnkey properties then that is even more impressive.  

    Congratulations and I hope your plan works exactly the way you lay it out.

    Chris

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    Thanks @Chris Clothier The very fact that someone like you who is in the RE business and understands it better than 90% of the investors here would not put all your eggs into highly  leveraged properties says a lot. I hope others on here who are advocating unlimited finance based strategies would take heed.

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 808 posts · 417 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed I completely understand, I have paid off my residence and sometimes ROI number is not everything especially if it helps you sleep at night. I was simply referring to the caculations of the ROI.

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