Should you Protect your Assets with a Prenup?
Real Estate Agent · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2018 · 84 posts · 105 votes
Should you Protect your Assets with a Prenup?
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Will GastonPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votesOriginally posted by @Account Closed:
@Chaz Mathias "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"
Just sayin' :)
I'd rather lose all of my assets than bring up a Postnup with my wife.
99 Replies
- Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes8y
Originally posted by @Victor S.:
Originally posted by @Nik Moushon:
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Not that a pre-nup is right or wrong but how will your S.O. feel about it? How are you going to convince them that you are going into marriage already prepared for it to fail but they should be ok with that and trust you that the marriage will last forever anyways. If you go in treating marriage like a business then don't get up set when the other person finds a better deal, bc its just business after all. I, personally, think pre-nups are a way for people to keep one foot out the door at all times to bc deep down there is something they don't trust about the other person. This is not a foundation you want to start a marriage on. I think you are just setting yourself up for failure. I'm not saying a marriage will last if you dont do a pre-nup as theres a thousand things that could end a marriage. Just this wont help you.
I will add though that I think it could make more sense in a second marriage bc this could protect assets for your children. Though again it still comes off as a trust issue.
Anyways, my 2 cents.People change. You might marry one person who turns out to be somebody else completely after the fact. Just like somebody mentioned above - probability of marriage failing or succeeding is akin to flipping a coin or playing Russian roulette with half the chambers loaded. Do you like your odds? I certainly don't, and I enjoy a good gamble. Everything in America is business, even relationships. Not a lawyer either, but heard/read that not all prenups hold up in court, so def. get a good lawyer on board if you do decide to go this route.
Victor, I agree. People Change. Thats why I said "theres a thousand things that could end a marriage".
I disagree with your comparison of marriage to flipping a coin or russian roulette. Those are gambling, marriage is not. Those have set chances, marriage does not. Just because the avg of married people divorcing equals the same percentage of winning a coin flip does not mean they are the same thing. There is nothing you can do to change the odds of a coin flip. There a million things you can do to make a marriage last. Not saying theres any guarantees of course. There are plenty of examples of marriages lasting even when they should have statistically ended. Both sides fought to fix what was broken because what wasnt was worth the fight. You can't fight a coin flip. But if you go into marriage treating it as a gamble, as something you just play odds with, something that no matter what you do the odds wont change, then ya...the odds are your marriage will fail bc you've already made up your mind that there nothing worth fighting for bc your fate is set. You let your life be ruled by numbers.If you're going to reduce marriage to being ruled by set numbers and odds that can't be changed then why are you getting married? Because statistically its a horrible gamble and if the trends continue its only going to get worse.
All I'm saying is marriage is, and should be, more than numbers but if you base it off numbers then don't expect it to work in your favor. Because a 50/50 chance with something this important with only two out comes is not something I would gamble on unless I knew I could do something to change those odds in my favor. Originally posted by @Nik Moushon:
If you're going to reduce marriage to being ruled by set numbers and odds that can't be changed then why are you getting married? Because statistically its a horrible gamble and if the trends continue its only going to get worse.
Bingo! I'm trying to stay single as long as possible :)
Marriage is no longer a fairy-tale, and in our society it feels like it's literally just one day/night of partying and taking pictures for the bride (and, of course, the shiny rock before all that). Why do you think LGBT fought so hard for their ability to marry? IMHO, it was all about receiving the same benefits as the hetero community (tax, healthcare, children, etc.) and less to do with two people "loving" each other for the rest of their lives. Smells like numbers to me, Nik. I'm a lucky (had no assets/children to pay lawyer fees for at the time) divorce survivor myself, so kinda know what I'm talking about.
I am in Texas, and i am getting married in 3 weeks ! I was under the impression that my properties i have now were separate property. That my fiance couldn't touch those if we were to get a divorce in the future. Anything acquired during the marriage was then community.
Any advise on this ?Originally posted by @Nik Moushon:
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. How are you going to convince them that you are going into marriage already prepared for it to fail but they should be ok with that and trust you that the marriage will last forever anyways.
Like any reasonable disagreement, this can be viewed both ways.
Don't say the proponent for the prenup is "going into the marriage already prepared for it to fail". Instead look at it as if the anti-prenup partner is "going into the marriage thinking it is going to fail."
Why? Because if the anti-prenup partner is 100% certain the marriage will last forever, why would that person care if there is a prenup? As long as the marriage lasts, both partners reap the benefits of the wealth. The only reason for a partner to be vehemently against a prenup is because that is the partner who most feels the marriage will not succeed.
At the very least, maybe both partners realize that any marriage can end in divorce. And maybe each partner is arguing their side because they want what is best for himself or herself. And maybe all this talk about "going into it planning for failure" is simply a red herring to distract from the original question.
This could be a very simple discussion, or a very nasty one ... between the two parties. If it became nasty, that would be enough to give me pause about getting married to that person in the first place.
- 8yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Chinmay J.:
Originally posted by @Chaz Mathias:
Hi All,
I wanted to begin a discussion on prenuptial agreements when bringing assets into a new marriage. I know this is a controversial topic, however I thought that the BiggerPockets community was the best place to begin a conversation on this important issue.
I have always had the mindset that marriage should not be about money, it should be about your relationship with your partner. Therefore, if you have earned assets and have a portfolio of properties and investments prior to marriage, wouldn't the marriage be better off if these assets were protected by a prenuptial agreement? Then everything earned after marriage (outside of these assets) could be communal property.
I've personally seen too many marriages end when one individual brought significantly more into the marriage and it caused for a messy divorce. When this happens, the divorce lawyers are the only ones who wins!
Please share your thoughts!
Terrible idea !!
If you love your money more than the thought of giving away half of it to the other person, then don't get married. I used to be a huge proponent of it when I was younger, but as I have grown older (and perhaps a little wiser) I have realized that it's a terrible precedent to set. You are essentially sending a message that you don't trust the other person one bit.
I have seen so many marriages spiral into divorce despite having prenups, enough to make a case that perhaps having a prenup is what led to the eventual demise of the marriage.
If you think you have found the right person. Get married.. Then keep working on your marriage every day, for the rest of your life to make it better. Good Luck. If you think she is a gold digger.. Dump her..
or they never make to the alter in the first place... its a tough one..
- Ridgefield, WA · Member since 2013 · 60 posts · 20 votes8y
Wow....that is a devil of a question. Nothing changes a person like cash. Being a Christian, (hopefully that statement does not get this post banned or deleted!) I see lots of well intentioned, devout, kind, gracious fellow believers come into money or have the opportunity to come into money (worse), particularly with the great economy. These are solid people, until they taste the cash! Changes most of em, not for the better. Suddenly different. Same for people in love. All snuggles and cuddles but bring up the "green" and that can change faster than Trump can send out a tweet, particularly with all the challenges that arise AFTER the wedding. Marriage is damned hard and I have a fabulous wife that puts up with my issues (all 4,376 of them).
I think if you are going prenup and that's your position for whatever reason, then you better sit down on date one, before the Cesar Salad even hits the table, and let that be blatantly known. I would hate to bring that up after popping the question. I can guess that would be a topic of discussion at EVERY female gathering and you would be vilified (this of course is the perspective of the male!) to no end. Your possible spouse may agree with it but seeds of doubt and anger would be thrown her way at a rate that would cover acres of bare ground...….Unless your just such an outstanding catch that the nup could be overlooked......like me....yeah....like me. (hah!)
That's my two cents.....state it way up front and you might survive...or you might just not ever get to "I do".
- Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes8y
Originally posted by @Victor S.:
Originally posted by @Nik Moushon:
If you're going to reduce marriage to being ruled by set numbers and odds that can't be changed then why are you getting married? Because statistically its a horrible gamble and if the trends continue its only going to get worse.
Bingo! I'm trying to stay single as long as possible :)
Marriage is no longer a fairy-tale, and in our society it feels like it's literally just one day/night of partying and taking pictures for the bride (and, of course, the shiny rock before all that). Why do you think LGBT fought so hard for their ability to marry? IMHO, it was all about receiving the same benefits as the hetero community (tax, healthcare, children, etc.) and less to do with two people "loving" each other for the rest of their lives. Smells like numbers to me, Nik. I'm a lucky (had no assets/children to pay lawyer fees for at the time) divorce survivor myself, so kinda know what I'm talking about.
I wasnt saying you where wrong. You either view marriage like numbers or you don't. The two can't co-exist together, IMO.
- Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes8y
Originally posted by @Randy E.:
Originally posted by @Nik Moushon:
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. How are you going to convince them that you are going into marriage already prepared for it to fail but they should be ok with that and trust you that the marriage will last forever anyways.
Like any reasonable disagreement, this can be viewed both ways.
Don't say the proponent for the prenup is "going into the marriage already prepared for it to fail". Instead look at it as if the anti-prenup partner is "going into the marriage thinking it is going to fail."
Why? Because if the anti-prenup partner is 100% certain the marriage will last forever, why would that person care if there is a prenup? As long as the marriage lasts, both partners reap the benefits of the wealth. The only reason for a partner to be vehemently against a prenup is because that is the partner who most feels the marriage will not succeed.
At the very least, maybe both partners realize that any marriage can end in divorce. And maybe each partner is arguing their side because they want what is best for himself or herself. And maybe all this talk about "going into it planning for failure" is simply a red herring to distract from the original question.
This could be a very simple discussion, or a very nasty one ... between the two parties. If it became nasty, that would be enough to give me pause about getting married to that person in the first place.
You say a Zebra is black with white stripes. I say its white with black stripes.
Theres always going to be two sides to a discussion. I've made my side clear enough I think. No need to keep going over it since thats not really the purpose of the OPs question.
I'm not going to think any less of anyone for being on either side. - Property Manager · Alpharetta, GA · Member since 2018 · 163 posts · 117 votes8y
Saying a pre-nup sets the precedent that you expect the marriage to fail is like saying giving condoms to kids encourages them to have sex. It's an emotional retort to a logical statement, completely gas-lighting, and asinine. Saying that someone considering a pre-nup should ask themselves why they feel like they need one is also gas-lighting.
I didn't put a fence up around my pool because I told my children to not go in there without me, and they know better than to disobey me. Ludicrous.
Keep emotion out of it. It's a business decision. No different than insurance, wise investing, hiring an accountant, pulling permits, etc. If you have assets that you don't want to lose, do all of the things to ensure you don't lose them. Pay your bills, do the maintenance, service the HVAC and appliances, have insurance, do appraisal audits. A pre-nup adds right to it.
It's not about feelings, it's not an emotional discussion, and for the love **** this is not kindergarten.
I don't have a pre-nup because I didn't have any assets when I got married, not for any emotional reason I was just broke. - Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2016 · 970 posts · 1k+ votes8y
I too think when it comes to business and money, you'll need to treat it separately from emotions/relationships.
Kinda related but I think most people on BP would agree that you should ALWAYS have a lease in replace for whoever you rent to, be it a rando, friend, or family. Its not always saying you don't trust them. Its literally just insurance against bad things happen IF they do. and as people have mentioned...with a 50% divorce rate, you bet I'm not risking things I've spent years and years of my life building just to have it stolen from me.
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
"I don't have a pre-nup because I didn't have any assets when I got married, not for any emotional reason I was just broke."
@Account Closed It's OK, luckily you can still do a post-nup! May as well get them properly divided up now just in case, that way it is all protected and you don't get saddled with the short end of the stick if a bad thing happens.
You can most likely just write up a fair distribution and slide it over to her to sign at dinner tonight!
:)
- @Chaz Mathias Good topic ! The way I see it if you have to ask her to sign a prenup then you better not marry her ! She isnt the one .if I suspect she may rob me , Iwouldnt do It. A marrIage Isnt just a Piece of paper . Its a lIfe long covenant ...a bond . There are some things like a wife and kids and health that you can’t put a price tag on or negotIate ,Its not something that can be drawn up signed off with an attorney and filed away . This is a commitment and you become one flesh . I have lost nearly everything in a divorce in my youth and I can still say that with assurance because I know that when you find your soul mate you don’t have contingency’s . I came into this world broke and naked and I’m going to leave this world broke and naked . Any blessing I get in between is a bonus
- Rental Property Investor · Chapel Hill, NC · Member since 2017 · 144 posts · 89 votes8y
I think a prenup when one or both parties are bringing significant assets into a marriage is important. Think about a worst case situation here. Maybe a spouse has betrayed the other in some way and caused the marriage to collapse - and suddenly a family is torn apart. Spouses had no time to reflect or process as you hire attorneys and head your own ways. Perhaps kids are part of the mix. Folks can do really weird and bad things during this time. If you think divorce won't happen to you, you should look at the statistics. Half of marriages end in divorce.
Make it easier on yourself by having a legally binding plan for the disposition of assets. Even if folks remain married, the certainty of knowing how assets would be distributed in such a terrible situation can take tension and uncertainly out of the equation.
Remember too your spouse may also have assets worth protecting and you may agree in the prenup to distribute assets in a divorce, so a prenup shouldn't be viewed as somehow being inherently unfair.
Equally important, if your real estate assets are your primary source of income, you must protect them. You have to look after yourself, pay your bills, keep a roof over your head, plan for retirement, etc. So yes I am a proponent of a prenup. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.
- Rental Property Investor · Savage, MN · Member since 2016 · 202 posts · 61 votes8y
Very good points to think about
- Investor · Little Elm, TX · Member since 2017 · 25 posts · 7 votes8y
Absolutely yes to prenump. Things change and often get nasty when divorce comes into the picture REGARDLESS of what you may think.
Juanita
- @John M his quote was dead on @Chaz Mathias unfortunately. The quote stated is funny but sadly true. Although I personally wouldn’t get a pre-nup with my fiancé, I think overall they are a good idea to protect assets if acquired before marriage. I’ve seen far too often people changing after divorce and becoming revengeful monsters. You never want to bet against your marriage but you’d get car insurance if you had almost a 50/50 shot at getting into a car accident right? I definitely agree with others who say a pre-nup is like insurance. However, my fiancé and I invest in real estate together so I personally won’t have one. What’s mine is his! But to each their own. It definitely depends what each partner brings in before and after the marriage begins.
- Tempe, AZ · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 7 votes8y
Absolutely get a prenup! Think of a marriage as the most important investment decision of your life. It can either propel you to great heights, or ruin you financially. As you wouldn't make an emotion-based investment decision, you shouldn't do it for marriage. So, 1. get a solid prenup 2. make sure you are marrying someone who is on the same level as you are in the aspects of ambition/brainpower/goals/money matters/etc.
I believe that if you are truly compatible with the person you are getting married to, then both of you will naturally be on the same page about getting a prenup since the way you both handle money one of the fundamental values. Therefore a mismatch could spell potential marital troubles down the road.
Good luck!
- Flipper/Rehabber · Loveland, OH · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 24 votes8y@Chaz Mathias. Yep. It was one of the things my wife and I talked about before hand. She didn’t care and signed it. My mom was actually the one who instilled it into me that whenever I marry get one done.
- Flipper/Rehabber · North Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2017 · 141 posts · 104 votes8y
Going into a relationship with a prenup is already having expectations/doubts the marriage is going to fail, if you feel you are going to need a prenup DO NOT MARRY THAT PERSON! Find someone who is going to have their own assets, and their own business to the point where they won't need your assets if a divorce occurs. A lot of people with assets, and businesses marry people with nothing going on in their lives, and because of that when a divorce happens that worthless person takes their spouses assets, and etc.
Moral of the story, if you marry someone worthless and you have assets then by all means get a prenup, but if you marry someone who is financially stable, and has their own assets, and you know they can survive with or without you financially then there is no need to because that's just going to make the marriage weird because it just goes to show you don't trust them at all even though they have their own business/ and or assets. You see a lot of these NBA players, and athletes get into relationships with low-lifes, and people who have nothing going on in their life, so when they divorce them they take all their assets. You just have to be wise with who you marry, but that's just my opinion.
Originally posted by @Nik Moushon:
I'm not going to think any less of anyone for being on either side.
Ditto
- It is clearly unnatural to mate for life. None of the great apes do. Only the lesser ape, the baboon, is monogamous, and not strictly so. Testicular size comparisons make it clear that as far as promiscuity goes, humans are less so than chimpanzees and more so than gorillas, who in any case are polygamous. In every human culture, high-status males tend to be more polygamous than low-status males. So we have to have prenups, as the laws of man do not comform to the true laws of nature. We have to be prepared when those laws assert themselves, despite our denials. This is what enlightened people should do and how society progresses.
Originally posted by @Maugno M.:
I am in Texas, and i am getting married in 3 weeks ! I was under the impression that my properties i have now were separate property. That my fiance couldn't touch those if we were to get a divorce in the future. Anything acquired during the marriage was then community.
Any advise on this ?THey are as long as you keep them separate during the marriage. Commingling of funds or using community funds for repairs and such can turn separate property into community property
- Real Estate Agent · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2018 · 84 posts · 105 votes8y
Thank you everyone, this is something that I have thought about, although it doesn't apply to my life currently. This question was initially proposed for a situation when someone is bringing significantly more to the marriage.
I'm having a hard time understanding how removing the assets accumulated before the marriage from the equation is the equivalent of admitting the marriage is going to fail. If you remove the assets accumulated before meeting someone from the equation and then decide to build an empire together after marriage, isn't this the best of both worlds? I think I have a hard time with the idea that I see this as entitlement that a person entering a marriage with no assets would feel entitled to something that was not theirs if the marriage failed, which as people change, is something that can happen to anyone. If you're with someone who is willing to work hard and build a prosperous life with you, isn't this fair to ask in a relationship?
- Real Estate Broker · Malone, NY · Member since 2013 · 345 posts · 70 votes8yIs there such a thing as pre-marital assets being treated differently than assets acquired after marriage?
Originally posted by @Craig Garrow:
Is there such a thing as pre-marital assets being treated differently than assets acquired after marriage?Absolutely, I live in Texas which is a community property state. Property owned prior to marriage is considered separate property along with any inheritance received.
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