Almost Lost $24,000 on BRRRR, Instead Made $8,000

Almost Lost $24,000 on BRRRR, Instead Made $8,000

Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes

My numbers showed a conservative ARV of 3/1 rancher in Richmond, VA at $135,000. All-in costs including repairs, title, legal, lender fees, etc. was $108,000. I developed a relationship with a new bank with great portfolio products and was excited to work with them.

Renovation was completed 2 weeks after closing. Refi was underway with the appraisal 1 week later. Appraisal came back at $105,000!!! The bank sent a note saying they would only refinance 80% of $105,000. I was slated to lose $24,000 on an expected breakeven BRRRR.

After a small heart attack, I reached out to a few RE professionals in the area and the general response was "That sucks!" when hoping for a solution.  I remembered a few situations on BP podcasts where guests spoke about respectfully understanding the appraiser's methods, communicating your misunderstanding, and presenting appropriate data to support a revaluation.  Solely because of that podcast or two, I did just that.

Appraiser was willing to revaluate and came back a week later with an appraised value of $145,000.  The closing date is set, and I'll be paid $8,000 after paying off the private money and all other costs and have 20% equity in the home.  Mortgage will be ~$800/month and rent is $1250 with a two year term already in place.  

I write this because I would have taken a huge loss if I didn't know any better. There was no "option" to contest the appraisal. I might have left the bank completely, which had a great product and people. Luckily, the numbers were there and things worked out alright with an increase of net worth of around $35,000 in about a month with $0 of my own money invested on one SFH. Thanks BP!

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Rental Property Investor · Savage, MN · Member since 2016 · 202 posts · 61 votes
7y

Hi @Stephen Glover, that is a great example of being persistent and not just putting your hands in the air and giving up. 

I too recall a previous episode or two stating that if your respectful and understanding of the appraiser that sometimes they will re-appraise/revalue the property due to something they may have missed. 

I'm glad everything worked out for you in the end. 

Good story, thanks for sharing! 

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  • Lender · Orlando, FL · Member since 2018 · 173 posts · 66 votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover Great job at being persistent and not taking their appraisal as a final answer. I just listened to a podcast on which the guest had described how she had done the same exact thing. It’s examples of real life scenarios like those that are the “extra tools on our tool belts” that Brandon always refers too!

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Robert Kirkley what episode is that? Others have been asking and I cannot remember which one. I think it’s been in the past 6 months or so.

  • Lender · Orlando, FL · Member since 2018 · 173 posts · 66 votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover It may be episode 320 with Brittany.. I am not 100% sure though. She created a ton of equity just with that one simple trick, how crazy!

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Robert Kirkley Thanks! That might be the one that indirectly saved me $24K :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2016 · 173 posts · 206 votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover It’s Podcast Episode 314 with Andresa Guidelli.

    From the Show Notes: “Andresa also shares a killer tip about challenging low appraisals she’s used successfully three separate times.”

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Jean Haisch excellent!!! That sounds right. Thank goodness for that podcast.

  • Real Estate Broker · Santa Ana CA [South Coast Metro] · Member since 2016 · 459 posts · 202 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Oscar Navarro:

    Is there anything I can say or do to make sure the appraisal is within the margins for a deal to work? Currently I am in a situation where we did a 203K loan ($230,000 for the house and $50K to fix it and additional $40K in credit cards... so a total of $320,000 that we owe). We are just about done with the house. It is my understanding that after 6 months I can order a new appraisal and refinance it based on that new appraisal. Based on comparable houses our house should be worth about $410-$430K... And since we bought it as a primary property (we plan on living on it for now) we can refinance 85% so we should be able to pull out  about $350K..... HOW DO I MAKE SURE THIS HAPPENS???

     The 203k Rehab was meant to be all inclusive loan. In order to get cash out might have to wait a year. But check with your lender.

  • Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2018 · 335 posts · 251 votes
    7y

    Awesome story!! I'm going through the same thing here with a low appraisal, and have come up with a similar packet of comps, list of rehab line items, and some history of the home and neighborhood. If it wasn't for the podcast, I would have just taken the appraisal and walked away with whatever cash I could. It's inspiring to see someone else in a similar situation have some success. Thanks for sharing!! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2019 · 32 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover I believe one of the podcasts you're referring to is #314 with @Andresa Guidelli. There's some tasty nuggets in there about managing contractors as well. There is more than one episode that mentions this but I can't remember the other.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cary, NC · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 7 votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover

    Did you go back to the appraiser regarding the

    Comps he chose? Or the upgrades you did ?

    For one of my properties, appraiser chose one

    Higher ,2 lower priced as comps.so mine appraises lower than the current sales .

  • New to Real Estate · Gaithersburg, MD · Member since 2019 · 22 posts · 9 votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover wow that’s great! I’m going to look for those podcasts for sure.

    If you don’t mind me asking, what was the disconnect with the original appraisal? Why was there such a disparity?

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Daniel Kong  You're on the right track.  Exactly what I provided and it worked.  As with any relationship be careful not to step on toes and treat the appraisers with respect.  I think that went a long way with my situation.

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Hunter Adams you're right.  @Daniel Kong - like Hunter and @Jean H. said, #314 with Andresa Guidelli might help your situation.  That's the main podcast I was referring to for sure.

  • Rental Property Investor · Sebring Florida · Member since 2009 · 61 posts · 1 vote
    7y

    Stephan can you give us an example of what steps you took with the appraiser to get them to readjust the original appraisal. (

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Bhaskar Pusuluri I went back to the appraiser to better understand his methods and mindset, then provided data based on the methods he uses to show the house had more value. One page one of this thread I listed the exact information I provided in case that helps!

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Brad Ruttenberg Check out podcast #314 with Andresa Guidelli.  

    The appraisal company was a national one with little knowledge of the area I was investing in.  It was off the mark in a few ways, but the appraisal company and bank were glad to revaluate after getting more information.  The information I provided is listed on page 1 of this thread in case that helps.

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @JD Hawkins it's all listed on page one of this thread if you want to check it out... and we've identified the podcast as being #314 with Andresa Guidelli. That's what helped me know what to do.

  • Rental Property Investor · Canton, OH · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover

    I believe "Making Appraisals Work for You with @RyanLundquist | BP Podcast 07" also talks about this.

    That said, for newbie investors this is a great example of why it's important to understand the BRRRR strategy from soup to nuts. You may find a great deal, but an appraiser (or underwriter) can kill it. When I go to my banker, I always like to share the projections of cash flow and annual profits after the refi, as well as professional pictures and an itemized list of repairs and costs. If you can add CMA's as well that will certainly help too! They seem to appreciate that.

    I've also had bankers sarcastically say to me "you paid $X a month or two ago, and you think it's worth $Y now?" And then wouldn't fund the deal...that makes my skin boil!

  • Monroe City, MO · Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover I think you may be referring to podcast 295 with Melissa Johnson? I think she spoke about contesting an appraisal.

  • Monroe City, MO · Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    Nevermind I just saw you located it

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Account Closed I agree completely. The bank had a pro forma, repairs/renovations, CMA, etc in advance but it was never communicated to the appraiser. However, it's my thinking that since the bank had this information up front, they were more willing to consider a revaluation. Had they not, they might have sided more with the appraiser. Plus, I was able to send all of the same information to the bank again, CCing the appraiser, so the bank knew I wasn't modifying or changing any of my original information due to the low appraisal.

    I've had banks see the process of the BRRRR method and rapid appreciation and think I'm creating some sort of loophole... but some banks get it and empower the investor.

  • Property Manager · Richmond, VA · Member since 2018 · 204 posts · 297 votes
    7y

    @Patrick Johnson there was definitely more than one Podcast, so you could be right with #295 also.  #314 was the one I was referring to specifically but there was one or two other podcast episodes that mentioned it as well.  All good information!

  • Investor · Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2015 · 423 posts · 114 votes
    7y

    @Stephen Glover   CONGRATS ON SUCCESS!!! 

    My tips to prepare for appraiser visit - I prepare and print out the comparable analysis (supporting my value) and full list of upgrades we done to the property and give it to appraiser.  One more thing -  I could list the property by owner, receive emails with interest, even better - receive the signed offer and show it to appraiser as well.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jane A.:

    @Stephen Glover   CONGRATS ON SUCCESS!!! 

    My tips to prepare for appraiser visit - I prepare and print out the comparable analysis (supporting my value) and full list of upgrades we done to the property and give it to appraiser.  One more thing -  I could list the property by owner, receive emails with interest, even better - receive the signed offer and show it to appraiser as well.  

    appraisers generally will only accept that kind of data through MLS or realtors.. too easy for people to just fudge up sales contracts that are not real.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Stephen Glover:

    @Account Closed I agree completely. The bank had a pro forma, repairs/renovations, CMA, etc in advance but it was never communicated to the appraiser. However, it's my thinking that since the bank had this information up front, they were more willing to consider a revaluation. Had they not, they might have sided more with the appraiser. Plus, I was able to send all of the same information to the bank again, CCing the appraiser, so the bank knew I wasn't modifying or changing any of my original information due to the low appraisal.

    I've had banks see the process of the BRRRR method and rapid appreciation and think I'm creating some sort of loophole... but some banks get it and empower the investor.

    your 8k is tax differed you will pay tax on those funds at exit. its not tax free you made 8k you just pulled it out of the property thats an important distinction.. when i did this in my day job as a HML to turn key buyers.. this is how they all worked.. we set it up to do 4 at a time.. so on the day they closed they would get 5 to 8k back per property.. One thing that was safer for the BRRR buyer was that they had me as the lender making sure rehab got done on time on budget.. and I made them get a pre approved and appraisal done before we closed.. the refi was already ordered approved with a valuation subject only to a 442 reinspect.. this took all the risk out of BRRRR buyer ended up at the same place 75% of ARV.

    I think as i read this thread i might just dust off that model and start offering it again.. MUCH safer for the BRRRR buyer and the BRRR buyer only needs good credit and not so much cash.. in my day I did this with as little as 1k down per property .. so for less than 10k out of pocket they ended up with 4 props and all their money back ( tax differed as stated) and we handled all the rehab for them.. since it was my money at risk until i got the refi done..

    What do you think.. would you do this ( market survey ) if you could end up at 75% ARV only have to put up say 2 to 5k per property and you knew you had a lender working hand in hand with the seller of the property.. IE turn key BRRRR maybe I create a new BP term.. BRRRR turn key and done for you.. max leverage . what do you think ?

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