Dave Ramsey is a Genius now

Dave Ramsey is a Genius now

Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes

I've been a hardcore follower of Dave Ramsey and have done his Debt Snowball in the past and it was very rewarding.  The problem was that I started to veer in the past 4 years and take on more debt such as buying a Lake Property that I run as an airbnb.  Although the Airbnb has been quite successful, I"ve noticed that I don't sleep as well as I used to because I'm leveraged.  I know a lot of people have been struggling with Airbnb during Covid-19 because their properties rely on tourism and now that that's buried, I feel for those property owners that are taking losses right now.  The reason mine is successful during this trying time is because it's on a private drive, in a rural area that is very desirable for people from the Twin Cities looking to get a way from the big crowds and bright lights.  I get a lot of people from Wisconsin, Iowa and south Dakota for both work purposes and vacations.   I was lucky and was able to get two workers that are staying for almost 3 months.  All this being said, I'm no longer interested in this business, because it takes up a lot of time and the money isn't worth it, nor is the stress of having to deal with the business.   I have a lot of equity in the property, but we have it listed and have a potential buyer that is making a decision hopefully today from what their agent said. 

Anyways, what I"m trying to say is now I understand why Dave Ramsey is a genious.   During these times, can you imagine that if you owned your properties free and clear, and had a large emergency fun for each property, you'd be sleeping at night quite well.  Having zero debt is king.  No one ever expected this would happen (Covid-19) and there are tons of renters who have been laid off that won't be making their rent payments and guess what?   As an owner and landlord you still have to pay your mortgage, taxes, insurance and 50% maintenance fees.  If you owned free and clear you wouldn' t have any mortgage payments.  How lovely that would be.  

So I'm really hoping that the lake property sells today or soon and my plan is to start paying off my primary home first and then start working on our duplex.  Once those are free and clear, then I will start saving to buy another rental property with cash.   I've been alive for the S&L in 87 debacle, the tech bust in 2001, the housing crash in 2008 and now this one.   So this is my plan and thanks Dave for all that you do.  

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
6y

I sleep just fine at night with my millions of dollars of debt.  Without that debt, thats millions that would never be added to my net worth. 

I have almost no concern for the coronavirus crisis. I could last somewhere in the range of 2 years if I didnt receive a single penny of rent. As of now, 93% of my tenants plan on paying their April rent. If you own high quality assets in high quality locations, getting your rent isnt really a concern even during the apocalypse.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2019 · 39 posts · 13 votes
    6y

    @Marcus Johnson

    I'll throw in my 2 cents as someone that used to listen to him daily for several years as I drove a lot for work.

    I think his plan is the best *generic* plan for most 9-5 folks. He has a large platform to speak out against consumer debt and a lot of people have never heard that message in their life.

    I use a mixed approach as do most folks on here.

    I have 0 consumer debt and own rental property. I've done a couple flips and have a large cushion to where I am not worried about this bump.

    Had I followed the DR plan to a tee, I wouldn't be anywhere close to where I am now with a massive potential for growth.

    Personally I have stayed away from STR because it can be a volatile investment during recessions regardless of the reason.

    Most people don't have the desire to invest in RE and for those people, his plan is the best path for them.

  • Rental Property Investor · Corvallis, OR · Member since 2018 · 840 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Marcus Johnson. I hear what you are saying, and IF Dave could predict an unprecedented time in the last 100 years, he would be a genius. A time that state and federal governments shut all businesses and college’s down due to a virus. With that said, he is great for the masses and yea, I took the course. However, IF I would have listened to his RE advice I would be worth millions less and lack monthly income from my properties, and frankly how I will retire. I do agree that being severely leveraged with little or no cash flow is a poor decision and most likely what you are referring too. In the end, Dave is wonderful for masses with little to no financial common sense and I do agree the average American is clueless as their parents, schools and colleges do not teach how to make money, just concepts! The earth is falling and I am still happy with my past decisions

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6y

    I tend to live very conservatively. If you make a million annually most people can be comfortable on 100k and keep the rest for investment and reserves.

    I have been telling other brokers/agents to be conservative in spending for years but they haven't lived through the cycles and started up only when things are good. The same can be said for newer investors who have only seen an up cycle economy.

    I am probably in the minority of small business that does not need a lifeline right now and if anything I am still thriving in this environment. I stay conservative and do lots of planning. Many business owners or investors have a (flight by the seat of their pants strategy) only focusing on surviving in the moment.

    Active yield investments can be more cyclical in nature and boom/bust than passive yields.

    I do not know anything about AIR BNB but would imagine it is getting crushed just like hotels with little to no travel happening for at least the next few months and maybe longer. 

    Dave Ramsey might promote saving money and paying off bills but that only goes so far when people make 50k a year average income. The reason is most people to live there is a break even point just like owning a business. You can only cut costs so much but at some point have to grow and make more money at your job or business to have more free cash flow to invest. That regeneration of capital is key to scaling net worth long term.

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    I am interested in RE investing but so far we haven’t pulled the trigger because our NW is already in the 7 figures by following Dave Ramsey and I am also a Boglehead investor. These two together are key for increasing your net worth. DR gets people out of negative NW and being a boglehead has been the catalyst of NW growth.

    We have a year buffer saved so we will weather this storm but if we would have jumped in and done a BRRR I'd be extremely stressed. It never made sense to me to become that leveraged.

    I love learning from this website but so far I am learning to be cautious about entering RE and we most likely won’t unless we pay cash. “Slow is smooth and smooth is fast”

    Best wishes on your vacation rental sale!

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jackie Adams:

    I love learning from this website but so far I am learning to be cautious about entering RE and we most likely won’t unless we pay cash.

    You're not crazy for doing so.  My mentor went to 8 figures in real estate in 20 years but started by buying cheap houses cash to learn the business of property management while not having a bank on his back.  Truth is all you need to do is hit about 3-5 million in clear equity then you can dump it into truly armchair investments (real estate is NOT an armchair investment) and cruise on the interest.  So if Ramsey is the way you get to that, hey more power to you.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hammond, WI · Member since 2017 · 139 posts · 217 votes
    6y

    @Jackie Adams; you can do both. I'm a boglhead investor as well, but I deviate in one key aspect. I follow the advice with maxed roth IRA and company match 401k, but everything else goes to real estate after that. When it comes to a taxable brokerage account I simply saved and purchase real estate instead.


    I purchased my first real estate investment 3.5 years ago, and my net worth would be somewhere in the range of 500k less if I would've went straight to the DR and boglehead mind-set.  I don't mind DR for people that need the help with legitimate finance issues, but in terms of growing net worth I do not agree with really any of his advice or the way he delivers it (I find him incredibly arrogant).  But to each their own.

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    I agree with your comment about Dave Ramsey and his investing advice. I don’t listen to his daily episodes because most of the time I get infuriated with his lack of investing knowledge. I personally think he’s just trying to make a buck when he talks about investing because he tells listeners to go through his Financial Advisors. 🙄

    I do like the simplicity of the baby step plan and really only that. Bogle is more my jam but he doesn’t go into the nitty gritty of living below your means...which I think a lot of people need help with. 

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Timothy W. really good to hear. I am curious if more people on this forum have invested that way.

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jackie Adams:

    @Timothy W. really good to hear. I am curious if more people on this forum have invested that way.

    There are.  They are generally quiet because they don't make their money on the transaction of real estate or education.  When you are a real estate investor in the sense of making your money doing a business in whatever and investing that money into real estate, at a point there's not a whole lot to talk about except to your lawyer and accountant.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2019 · 138 posts · 144 votes
    6y

    DR is successful because so many Americans are fiscally ignorant and\or irresponsible, not because he has compelling strategies for educated and responsible risk-takers. RK is more in line with the latter type of person.

    DR's 7 step process is focused on the simplest way to improve someone's mental health. Really, it is a mental health program, not a wealth-building program. Money problems can tear families apart and drive normally good people to do bad things. There is a place for DR and I'm appreciative that he has helped so many relieve stress and gain confidence. I'm positive that DR has helped improve society and proactively prevented crime. However, this is all predicated on a W2 job and he never explains the risks and opportunity costs associated with income coming exclusively from W2. As someone who has recently "seen the light" I firmly believe that it is a greater risk to the experience one will have in life to NOT leverage debt responsibly. 

    From a wealth-building standpoint, by the time someone gets to Step 7, their investor friends have already increased their net worth and have many of their expenses paid by tax-exempt assets. This is not anecdotal, I'm comparing myself with my buddy who is a huge DR fan and won't invest a thing until his primary residence is paid off in another 5 years. Meanwhile, I just started investing and have three rental homes under my belt in which the cashflow pays for the mortgage on my primary residence plus added $200K in net worth. In 5 years, I expect to have all my expenses paid for by passive assets and my W2 job will be pure "profit", while my buddy will have just eliminated a single expense by paying off his house. We make similar household income and have similar expenses. 

    No matter how much I tell my friend that he is losing millions of dollars and doesn't even know it by putting so much money in tax-deferred programs and keeping cash in savings accounts, the DR way just feels better to him. I point out the low average return of the stock market compared to real estate, how he is bleeding money with fees from people he doesn't even know or have control over, that we have historically low taxes now and 20 years from now taxes will most likely be much more, why he plans on being poor at retirement to take advantage of 401K, that not being able to leverage his savings for 20 years creates massive opportunity costs because of the time value of money, that inflation will skyrocket due to this crisis and real estate mitigates inflation because property price and rents rise like all goods and 30 year debt becomes cheaper and cheaper every year. These are all principles that DR doesn't explain because they are complicated and his audience needs a simple path.

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jackie Adams:

    @Timothy W. really good to hear. I am curious if more people on this forum have invested that way.

     I follow Bogleheads and I have Vanguard accounts that follow that, but it isn't going to look all that smart for a while. My RE is still paying just like always, while my Total stock index, S&P indexes and capital growth accounts have lost 30%+ of their value in the last 2 weeks. Yes, I had great growth from 2009-present, but I can take you to S&P charts that show you 30 years of no growth plenty of times. 

    My point: if you are depending only on Bogle approaches, you are taking some serious risk to your long term wealth. The idea that you can take any 30 year span and make 8-10% in a market index is just not true. 

    Skyline Properties
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  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2019 · 23 posts · 6 votes
    6y

    @Marcus Johnson, I find it funny when real estate investor look down at stock investors. Like they are immune to economic down turns. This is what we call a “black swan” event. When the economy goes down, the DOW goes down, people lose money, companies lose money, people lose jobs and don’t have any type of savings, can’t pay their rent, and thus you as an owner of a rental property cannot make money. As a plumber once said “**** runs down hill”. That’s why it’s important not to be over leveraged and have enough cash in a bear market.

    Stocks are not King

    Real Estate is not King

    Cash is King

  • Investor · Tx, GA · Member since 2019 · 313 posts · 337 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jackie Adams:

    I am interested in RE investing but so far we haven’t pulled the trigger because our NW is already in the 7 figures by following Dave Ramsey and I am also a Boglehead investor. These two together are key for increasing your net worth. DR gets people out of negative NW and being a boglehead has been the catalyst of NW growth.

    We have a year buffer saved so we will weather this storm but if we would have jumped in and done a BRRR I'd be extremely stressed. It never made sense to me to become that leveraged.

    I love learning from this website but so far I am learning to be cautious about entering RE and we most likely won’t unless we pay cash. “Slow is smooth and smooth is fast”

    Best wishes on your vacation rental sale!

    Hypothetically, could you lay out a 5 year strategy of what kind of property you'll enter the market with paying all cash, the expected returns, and when you plan to scale?  

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    6y

    Just an update.  I got an offer on the home for list price, so that's good.   Moving forward.  

  • JJ ConwayPro Member
    Financial Advisor · Stephenville, TX · Member since 2016 · 163 posts · 85 votes
    6y

    @Marcus Johnson

    I teach investing in real estate without taking on debt. It is a very unpopular opinion, but it works.  For those in the thread above (I haven't finished reading it, admittedly) who say it's impossible for the "Average American" to invest in real estate without debt that's not true. I've taught many people how.  You start small (or with non-debt activities like wholesaling or deal-making) and work your way up. 

    I started investing this way after the market crashed at the same time as my divorce, leaving me with over $845K divorce debt.  Most of that was from over-leveraged properties such as the house owed $405K that was now only worth $180K and not federally backed so I couldn't take advantage of the assistance programs.  NEVER AGAIN!

  • Investor · Member since 2019 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @JD Martin:
    Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:

    @Mo Karney Never heard of the man when I was in my 20's . I just didnt like debt . And I do have a soft spot for cars , trucks , and jeeps . Jewelry , not so much . For the wife yes . Me ? no . I prefer old classic 1960's mussel and fun . Sitting on a 62 vette pushing 500hp and a 68 chevy van from the custom van era ( 1996 2nd place Eastern Van nationals early GM radical)

     That's me. Not to derail the topic at hand but if I had enough property I'd probably have 100 different cars. I love driving different cars and have owned all kinds of cool stuff. These days I stick to my 95 Miata, which just crossed into "antique" land and now has antique plates. I love convertibles and I love cars that can handle, and since I (can afford but don't want to) drop high 5 figures on my "dream" car (63-67 Vette, convertible or HT), it's the next best thing and makes me happy :)

    It might not sound prudent, but buying a car right now is a great deal. Just picked up a McLaren 720s. Original window sticker of $400,000 with 3,000 miles on it with a FMV of around $290,000; I got it for $240,000 on a 84-month, 2.49% loan through the same bank that does my RE.

    I can write a good chunk of the car payment off, registered it in Montana for tax reasons and I love it! I can keep the car for the next 6 months to a year and WHOLESALE the car for about $200k if I put say 10,000 miles on it and it takes a hit in depreciation from the new 765LT coming out.
     

  • Rental Property Investor · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2019 · 138 posts · 144 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @JJ Conway:

    @Marcus Johnson

    I teach investing in real estate without taking on debt. It is a very unpopular opinion, but it works.  For those in the thread above (I haven't finished reading it, admittedly) who say it's impossible for the "Average American" to invest in real estate without debt that's not true. I've taught many people how.  You start small (or with non-debt activities like wholesaling or deal-making) and work your way up. 

    I started investing this way after the market crashed at the same time as my divorce, leaving me with over $845K divorce debt.  Most of that was from over-leveraged properties such as the house owed $405K that was now only worth $180K and not federally backed so I couldn't take advantage of the assistance programs.  NEVER AGAIN!

    JJ, investing in real estate without debt is not a bad thing. Where people get in trouble is that they invest with no debt AND they have no reserves.

  • Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2019 · 264 posts · 279 votes
    6y

    teach investing in real estate without taking on debt. It is a very unpopular opinion, but it works. For those in the thread above (I haven't finished reading it, admittedly) who say it's impossible for the "Average American" to invest in real estate without debt that's not true. I've taught many people how. You start small (or with non-debt activities like wholesaling or deal-making) and work your way up.

    I started investing this way after the market crashed at the same time as my divorce, leaving me with over $845K divorce debt. Most of that was from over-leveraged properties such as the house owed $405K that was now only worth $180K and not federally backed so I couldn't take advantage of the assistance programs. NEVER AGAIN!

    JJ Conway

    • JJConway.org
    • JJ you are one smart cookie.  I have made several post about using partners and not banks to buy real estate, most disagree with not using leverage but every 10-20 years there is a correction and those who are heavily leveraged will get no sympathy from banks.  They look to people like me and my partners to bail them  out for 25 cents on the dollar.   That circle may be coming soon. I hope not because too many people suffer but too many people have very short memories or maybe are too young to have enough experience.  Keep on educating we need all the knowledge  we can get. 
  • Rental Property Investor · Aurora, CO · Member since 2018 · 288 posts · 117 votes
    6y

    @Marcus Johnson

    This post is very entertaining. Some good points on both sides, but my $.02 is take a step back and try not to get so defensive.....

  • Member since 2020 · 22 posts · 26 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Hudson Walker:

    @Marcus Johnson, I find it funny when real estate investor look down at stock investors. Like they are immune to economic down turns. This is what we call a “black swan” event. When the economy goes down, the DOW goes down, people lose money, companies lose money, people lose jobs and don’t have any type of savings, can’t pay their rent, and thus you as an owner of a rental property cannot make money. As a plumber once said “**** runs down hill”. That’s why it’s important not to be over leveraged and have enough cash in a bear market.

    Stocks are not King

    Real Estate is not King

    Cash is King 

    CASH IS KING

    Just LOL @ not having serious cash reserves in 2020 when you don't have a very good excuse not to (some people just can't and it's not their fault). For those in that basket, seriously reconsider how committed you are to increasing your wealth. This is biggerpockets not SMALLERPOCKETS dmnit.


    When prices for everything run high, it is best to quickly convert assets to cash and sit on it so that you can get your money in good to fantastic deals that will surely pop up.

  • Member since 2020 · 22 posts · 26 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Mo Karney:
    Originally posted by @JD Martin:
    Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:

    @Mo Karney Never heard of the man when I was in my 20's . I just didnt like debt . And I do have a soft spot for cars , trucks , and jeeps . Jewelry , not so much . For the wife yes . Me ? no . I prefer old classic 1960's mussel and fun . Sitting on a 62 vette pushing 500hp and a 68 chevy van from the custom van era ( 1996 2nd place Eastern Van nationals early GM radical)

     That's me. Not to derail the topic at hand but if I had enough property I'd probably have 100 different cars. I love driving different cars and have owned all kinds of cool stuff. These days I stick to my 95 Miata, which just crossed into "antique" land and now has antique plates. I love convertibles and I love cars that can handle, and since I (can afford but don't want to) drop high 5 figures on my "dream" car (63-67 Vette, convertible or HT), it's the next best thing and makes me happy :)

    It might not sound prudent, but buying a car right now is a great deal. Just picked up a McLaren 720s. Original window sticker of $400,000 with 3,000 miles on it with a FMV of around $290,000; I got it for $240,000 on a 84-month, 2.49% loan through the same bank that does my RE.

    I can write a good chunk of the car payment off, registered it in Montana for tax reasons and I love it! I can keep the car for the next 6 months to a year and WHOLESALE the car for about $200k if I put say 10,000 miles on it and it takes a hit in depreciation from the new 765LT coming out. 

    How did you write a good chunk of a car payment off? Suppose I wanted to buy a new Porsche worth $120,000 in cash. Is there any way I can write this off on my taxes?

  • Rental Property Investor · La Quinta, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 779 votes
    6y

    One true statement, or true as of lately statement, does not a genius make.  I wish you the best in sleeping better, but your definition of a genius defies my logic @Marcus Johnson

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    A speculative genius isn't a genius until he hits his lottery number and everyone believes he had a crystal ball.  He just played more lottery tickets than most people.

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