Sheriff sale - need free title reports
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Tom GimerBusiness Member
DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votesFree on this coast is DIY.
All the information is public, you just need to know how and what to retrieve, review and analyze.
I can't imagine giving away that work that for free with the hope of insuring a high risk transaction.
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43 Replies
- 7yRicky SiNew York Mills, NY · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 9 votesOP@Benjamin Haberman I do all of the above myself, check township”s assessor records for recorded deeds. Call them day of sherif sale to find out delinquent taxes or other delinquent liens. Do online searches. Sherif sale’s are very risky though. Complete title report is the best bet or like Chris mentioned have the foreclosure lawyer share that info with you which so far I have no luck with in Nj. I really want to dive in NJ market but getting title reports each week has been the biggest hurdle. I lost great opportunities because of that in the past 6-8 months. And keep in mind, you can purchase the title report but title companies here in Nj will not guarantee title insurance on sherif sales. Also property you purchased the title report for can be pushed back. Has happened to me here
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Chris K.:
Basically what @Jay Hinrichs said. To be precise, the Pennsylvania sheriff's sale wipes out the lien but doesn't destroy the right to redemption. As Jay explained, it's honestly not the end of the world if the IRS exercises the redemption right.
Now for the above to happen, the mortgagee needs to follow very specific steps. This is because the federal government is a "sovereign" and they are entitled to something called a "sovereign immunity." So the mortgagees must follow specific procedural rules when trying to divest an IRS Tax Lien (or any federal liens for that matter). Institutional mortgagees typically don't mess up on this for normal foreclosures.
On final note, the law on this topic can change pretty drastically depending on the state and the federal circuit. Some people assume that federal law automatically trumps state law but that's not always the case. There's a lot of caselaw out there discussing how the federal law on this topic interacts with state law. So you need to be aware of both state law and federal caselaw on the topic.
Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it for legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.
my comments are are based on my buying courthouse steps in CA OR WA NV MS OH
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Benjamin Haberman:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Ricky Si:
@Jay HinrichsGreat input. I was working on one property and I did exactly that , I searched by lot and block numbers. Went thru humdreds of pages of deeds etc..... Property had an irs lien on it but it didn’t show up anywhere and sherif didn’t mention it either. It had 50,000 irs tax lien behind the 1st mtg. Dodged a big bullet there, thankfully I didn’t buy it...but again if I had the title, it would’ve showed up there.
well I would have bought it if it was a deal.. IRS never redeems its so rare as to never happen.. but for sure you cant get a new loan on it for 120 days or sell it.. so if that's an issue you should pass.
I go to the sheriffs sales every week. I have a virtual assistant who updates a Google Sheet for me for every property. She fills out beds/baths/sq ft/ lot size/zestimate (for quick reference)/link to Zillow/link to google maps.....
After reading this forum though, I am now worried that some of these auctions could be 2nd mortgages. What is the easiest way to find this out? I can't run a title search on every property because it would cost me $200 for every search.
Also- what is easiest way to find out about IRS tax liens?
well it could be as simple as your VA calling the company handling the sale ( law office or whatever ) and asking.. in high dollar value states one clue is a 30k opening bid..
hire a VA ( local one) to up date your spread sheet by going to the courthouse and pulling the info once a week on all foreclosures your interested in .. remember this is public information.. you just need someone to teach you how to do it.
way back when I started in this business in the mid 70s my Dads Lawyer told me.. you want to be successful IN RE go learn the courthouse.. so I spent hours learning how to pull out those big dusty ole books and read title history... I would go to our title companies title plant and have the title examiner show me how to look things up.. now keep in mind we were the largest client at the time for that small title company so I got a lot of perks.. but where I really did well was in the map rooms scouting out showdown plats.. that is one of the best ways to find value.. I found one called ( Rainbow Knolls) old subdivision platted in the 20s but because it was under one common ownership ( 104 lots) assessor on the assessors plat map showed it as a 15 acre tract.. we made an offer like it was one building lot.. then we got our HML to put 104 individual loans on each lot to the tune of 3k per lot we used that 300k to build all the roads and infrastructure.. we recorded each loan individually which caused the assessor to reestablish the plat. without having to go through the platting and land use .. planners did not like it I can tell you.. but now a days out west this is quite common and there are easier ways to do this.. in Oregon for instance they call it a lot confirmation.. there are all sorts of shadow lots lying underneath lots in the city.. takes 60 days and a few hundred bucks and a current survey and you can split lots as long as there is a shadow plat that was recorded back around the turn of the century. its common in PDX for these to be 25X 100s and ergo the Portland skinnies we build today..
I am doing one in Indy as we speak.. same thing lot was divided years ago I simply get a survey and record it and I have a new lot to build a new home on...
- Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y@Benjamin Haberman ya of your going to auction every week and hired an assistant it’s probably good to know if there is a valid pending first that isn’t eliminated at auction. Lucky you haven’t been burned by not knowing that. However, as others have Said, a sheriff sale is a judicial foreclosure so a second can’t bring a foreclosure to auction with the first given notification at which time they would have a inferior claim. The county has all the Lien info on file. A proper title report will also show outstanding liens. You want to cross check that all lIenholders have receIved proper notIfIcatIon against the sheriffs foreclosure announcement. If rights of reception are outstanding then that’s a separate matter but as Jay and the lawyer have commented they will pay back your money plus some stated rate of interest
- Real Estate Broker · Ocean View, NJ · Member since 2014 · 188 posts · 82 votes7y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Benjamin Haberman:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Ricky Si:
@Jay HinrichsGreat input. I was working on one property and I did exactly that , I searched by lot and block numbers. Went thru humdreds of pages of deeds etc..... Property had an irs lien on it but it didn’t show up anywhere and sherif didn’t mention it either. It had 50,000 irs tax lien behind the 1st mtg. Dodged a big bullet there, thankfully I didn’t buy it...but again if I had the title, it would’ve showed up there.
well I would have bought it if it was a deal.. IRS never redeems its so rare as to never happen.. but for sure you cant get a new loan on it for 120 days or sell it.. so if that's an issue you should pass.
I go to the sheriffs sales every week. I have a virtual assistant who updates a Google Sheet for me for every property. She fills out beds/baths/sq ft/ lot size/zestimate (for quick reference)/link to Zillow/link to google maps.....
After reading this forum though, I am now worried that some of these auctions could be 2nd mortgages. What is the easiest way to find this out? I can't run a title search on every property because it would cost me $200 for every search.
Also- what is easiest way to find out about IRS tax liens?
well it could be as simple as your VA calling the company handling the sale ( law office or whatever ) and asking.. in high dollar value states one clue is a 30k opening bid..
hire a VA ( local one) to up date your spread sheet by going to the courthouse and pulling the info once a week on all foreclosures your interested in .. remember this is public information.. you just need someone to teach you how to do it.
way back when I started in this business in the mid 70s my Dads Lawyer told me.. you want to be successful IN RE go learn the courthouse.. so I spent hours learning how to pull out those big dusty ole books and read title history... I would go to our title companies title plant and have the title examiner show me how to look things up.. now keep in mind we were the largest client at the time for that small title company so I got a lot of perks.. but where I really did well was in the map rooms scouting out showdown plats.. that is one of the best ways to find value.. I found one called ( Rainbow Knolls) old subdivision platted in the 20s but because it was under one common ownership ( 104 lots) assessor on the assessors plat map showed it as a 15 acre tract.. we made an offer like it was one building lot.. then we got our HML to put 104 individual loans on each lot to the tune of 3k per lot we used that 300k to build all the roads and infrastructure.. we recorded each loan individually which caused the assessor to reestablish the plat. without having to go through the platting and land use .. planners did not like it I can tell you.. but now a days out west this is quite common and there are easier ways to do this.. in Oregon for instance they call it a lot confirmation.. there are all sorts of shadow lots lying underneath lots in the city.. takes 60 days and a few hundred bucks and a current survey and you can split lots as long as there is a shadow plat that was recorded back around the turn of the century. its common in PDX for these to be 25X 100s and ergo the Portland skinnies we build today..
I am doing one in Indy as we speak.. same thing lot was divided years ago I simply get a survey and record it and I have a new lot to build a new home on...
Jay is there any advantage to going to the local court house after having the VA do a search on our public land record search?
http://clerk.capemaycountynj.gov/publicsearch/
Also our sheriff has a page that they update every day with the sales. Is it still worth going to the sheriffs office?
Are there any tricks to reading the lis pendens? Is there anything in the lis pendens that can be crucial to knowing wether or not other liens will be cleared up upon the sale?
Do they have showdown plats in every state ? So you are going through all the old subdivisions and trying to link them with newer subdivisions to see if there are actually more lots there? Is this because the original plats hold superior to the newer plats? In the example with the Rainbow Knolls- what if the zoning code changed and you could no longer get 104 lots out of that parcel?
- 7yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Ricky Si:
@Jay HinrichsWhen I tell people that here in NJ or DE they think I’m crazy. I bought some properties in CA and I’d get the listing around 9am... I’d contact the title company I worked with and bam by 11 I’d have 60 years of title history...
Just like some states people actually survey an SFR before they buy it.. that simply is never done in a subdivision on the west coast if you asked for one realtors and others would look at you like your were from Mars or maybe Venus
Funny you bring this up.
At least 30% of the surveys I review I add an exception to our commitment based upon what the survey discloses... fence lines off, driveways outside the property lines, encroachments of all sorts onto utility easements or BRL, more.
Like an owner in a subdivision out west won't build, construct or place whatever he wants wherever he wants... HA!!
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · Northern NJ · Member since 2016 · 341 posts · 144 votes7y@Ricky Si I think that in NJ they announce if and to what the sale is subject To. (Subject to unpayed tax form 10/23/2018, subject to IRS liens)
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Benjamin Haberman:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Benjamin Haberman:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Ricky Si:
@Jay HinrichsGreat input. I was working on one property and I did exactly that , I searched by lot and block numbers. Went thru humdreds of pages of deeds etc..... Property had an irs lien on it but it didn’t show up anywhere and sherif didn’t mention it either. It had 50,000 irs tax lien behind the 1st mtg. Dodged a big bullet there, thankfully I didn’t buy it...but again if I had the title, it would’ve showed up there.
well I would have bought it if it was a deal.. IRS never redeems its so rare as to never happen.. but for sure you cant get a new loan on it for 120 days or sell it.. so if that's an issue you should pass.
I go to the sheriffs sales every week. I have a virtual assistant who updates a Google Sheet for me for every property. She fills out beds/baths/sq ft/ lot size/zestimate (for quick reference)/link to Zillow/link to google maps.....
After reading this forum though, I am now worried that some of these auctions could be 2nd mortgages. What is the easiest way to find this out? I can't run a title search on every property because it would cost me $200 for every search.
Also- what is easiest way to find out about IRS tax liens?
well it could be as simple as your VA calling the company handling the sale ( law office or whatever ) and asking.. in high dollar value states one clue is a 30k opening bid..
hire a VA ( local one) to up date your spread sheet by going to the courthouse and pulling the info once a week on all foreclosures your interested in .. remember this is public information.. you just need someone to teach you how to do it.
way back when I started in this business in the mid 70s my Dads Lawyer told me.. you want to be successful IN RE go learn the courthouse.. so I spent hours learning how to pull out those big dusty ole books and read title history... I would go to our title companies title plant and have the title examiner show me how to look things up.. now keep in mind we were the largest client at the time for that small title company so I got a lot of perks.. but where I really did well was in the map rooms scouting out showdown plats.. that is one of the best ways to find value.. I found one called ( Rainbow Knolls) old subdivision platted in the 20s but because it was under one common ownership ( 104 lots) assessor on the assessors plat map showed it as a 15 acre tract.. we made an offer like it was one building lot.. then we got our HML to put 104 individual loans on each lot to the tune of 3k per lot we used that 300k to build all the roads and infrastructure.. we recorded each loan individually which caused the assessor to reestablish the plat. without having to go through the platting and land use .. planners did not like it I can tell you.. but now a days out west this is quite common and there are easier ways to do this.. in Oregon for instance they call it a lot confirmation.. there are all sorts of shadow lots lying underneath lots in the city.. takes 60 days and a few hundred bucks and a current survey and you can split lots as long as there is a shadow plat that was recorded back around the turn of the century. its common in PDX for these to be 25X 100s and ergo the Portland skinnies we build today..
I am doing one in Indy as we speak.. same thing lot was divided years ago I simply get a survey and record it and I have a new lot to build a new home on...
Jay is there any advantage to going to the local court house after having the VA do a search on our public land record search?
http://clerk.capemaycountynj.gov/publicsearch/
Also our sheriff has a page that they update every day with the sales. Is it still worth going to the sheriffs office?
Are there any tricks to reading the lis pendens? Is there anything in the lis pendens that can be crucial to knowing wether or not other liens will be cleared up upon the sale?
Do they have showdown plats in every state ? So you are going through all the old subdivisions and trying to link them with newer subdivisions to see if there are actually more lots there? Is this because the original plats hold superior to the newer plats? In the example with the Rainbow Knolls- what if the zoning code changed and you could no longer get 104 lots out of that parcel?
to my knowledge plats or subdivisons are recorded at the court house.. as in the original subdivision.. there was no zone issues these were legal lots of record ( Rainbow Knolls) the ASSESSOR for convenience since the lots were all contiguous and in one onnership just created a lot of one ownership and one size for the assessor plat maps which in CA are not the original subdivision maps.
or like in Oregon Portland specifically.. most of the city back in the original plat of 1890 something the lots were almost all 25/100 the same engineer surveyor that platted SF platted Portland and SF as we all know is all 25/100 lots.
- Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Free on this coast is DIY.
All the information is public, you just need to know how and what to retrieve, review and analyze.
I can't imagine giving away that work that for free with the hope of insuring a high risk transaction.
That's odd; title companies on the west coast give agents/lenders/etc free access, which includes looking up real estate nationwide if it's a nationwide title company.
Top of page for the White House:
And I pulled Ben Bernanke's after reading on the news that his mortgage refinance application was denied due to being self employed for <2 years after he was no longer Chairperson of the Fed.
Often these aren't super accurate; not uncommon for the preliminary title report to uncover more stuff. Which of course why a title report without anyone willing to issue title insurance holds zero value.
- Member since 2018 · 22 posts · 4 votes7y
Originally posted by @Chris Mason:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Free on this coast is DIY.
All the information is public, you just need to know how and what to retrieve, review and analyze.
I can't imagine giving away that work that for free with the hope of insuring a high risk transaction.
That's odd; title companies on the west coast give agents/lenders/etc free access, which includes looking up real estate nationwide if it's a nationwide title company.
Top of page for the White House:
And I pulled Ben Bernanke's after reading on the news that his mortgage refinance application was denied due to being self employed for <2 years after he was no longer Chairperson of the Fed.
Often these aren't super accurate; not uncommon for the preliminary title report to uncover more stuff. Which of course why a title report without anyone willing to issue title insurance holds zero value.
@Chris Mason Which title company/website is this?
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Tony Rodriguez:
Originally posted by @Chris Mason:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Free on this coast is DIY.
All the information is public, you just need to know how and what to retrieve, review and analyze.
I can't imagine giving away that work that for free with the hope of insuring a high risk transaction.
That's odd; title companies on the west coast give agents/lenders/etc free access, which includes looking up real estate nationwide if it's a nationwide title company.
Top of page for the White House:
And I pulled Ben Bernanke's after reading on the news that his mortgage refinance application was denied due to being self employed for <2 years after he was no longer Chairperson of the Fed.
Often these aren't super accurate; not uncommon for the preliminary title report to uncover more stuff. Which of course why a title report without anyone willing to issue title insurance holds zero value.
@Chris Mason Which title company/website is this?
First American title has this product.. however for bidding on foreclosures i dont think it robust enough.. but to be frank i never used it since we get date downs on the phone and TRIOS e mailed to us while we are on the phone.. a TRIO in our market is the picture of the assessors page.. lots of info.. copy of last recorded deed how they took title.. and a plat map.. this was key to us.. since all i needed was the last recorded deed and I could do my own warrnety deeds in house.. the deed had the legals.. and current vesting.. so you just did a deed from current owner to my company takes less than 5 minutes to prep.. get them to a notary and walk it into the recorders office.. thats how we did most of our deals as there was never time to get title insurance.. now to be fair one off investors may have trouble taking title this way when they go to resell.. but we have our relationships so they were good insuring our purchases.. but do be careful trying this yourself.. especially hand written deeds.. future insurers could balk these days..
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Ricky Si:
@Tony RodriguezYeah, I’d like to know as well. Most title companies are locally based. But even if it’s nationwide, I doubt they offer free title reports.
preliminary title reports are negotiable depends on how big you are.. but your right if your one off not going to get those for free.
I was talking to my customer service rep at WFG the other day and he was bidding out providing title to one of the major Auction sites and they wanted pre lims for a very low number.. dont recall but it was something like 25 bucks per.. and WFG was going to pass.
I get them for free as an accommodation.. but i dont abuse it and I could never get them on all the properties we were bidding on when i did sheriff sales.. But if i am looking a property for a housing track they will give me for free a developers package which is a huge 3 ring binder with all sorts of data from demographics utlities zoning and if I request a full title search.. this all for free.. with the expectation if i buy that development they are going to get 10 to 50 million in title policies.. from my retail buyers.
so in practice the bigger your are the easier it is.. buying half a dozen a year.. in our market not so much.. and back east I think a non starter all together. because of the time and cost to gather the info.. I believe these companies have to hire a title abstract-or to do this work and those folks charge about 200. bucks so it cost the title company 200 or so to get a title report.. I am thinking that's how it works i know it works that way in SC were I build.
- Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2015 · 312 posts · 273 votes7y
When I started buying sherrif's and treasurer's sales, I was taking risks and like "what, me worry?". I'd just buy and find out later how good the title was. The foreclosure wipes out everything except a federal tax lein and that doesn't even matter much if there is one. What I found out is that Detroit (wayne county treasurer) ALL the titles were a quitclaim that you couldn't sell for anything unless you sued the property for quiet title action. In Dayton, OH all the titles are gauranteed for a month or so, if you can't get title insurance they will give you your money back. Wow, what a difference! I gave up on Detroit all together.
- Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y
In Pennsylvania, we call these the assessment records. They are available for free on many sources. But you cannot really do much with it since it lacks any meaningful --- if any --- information on liens and other title issues.
Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it for legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Chris K.:
In Pennsylvania, we call these the assessment records. They are available for free on many sources. But you cannot really do much with it since it lacks any meaningful --- if any --- information on liens and other title issues.
Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it for legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.
these are what we basically in Oregon call a trio.. and are free just e mail or call title company and you will have the trio on your computer in a a few minutes.. you simply need owner name or the address... Trio includes.. last recorded Deed... Assessors tax page Like Chris posted above.. and the plat map.. NO information on mortgages Trust deeds Liens etc.
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